[karajorma]

Karajorma, you and I have always spoken to one another with respect and friendship, as such I have always taken it for granted that there was a modicum of respect between us.  So, accept this in the spirit that it is meant.  You need to read this thread and not reply.  The very title of this thread is an attack on you personally, and as such your judgement in this matter is suspect.  You need to step away.

ShadowWolf, I don't think you need to worry about me taking something you say the wrong way.

I have no problem stepping aside and leaving the matter to be resolved. I'll reserve my comments for the moderation forum as long as I feel the matter is being dealt with fairly.

[Zacam]

I don't know what Black Wolf will say, I'm only me. But I don't see a disconnect of narrative or a misrepresentation taking place in terms of myself.

As Mjn points out, Lorric does engage whenever either something happens, or if he's not sure if something is going to happen. And he does it in the context of trying to find out what went wrong. I have discussed any and every report he's been made aware of that he brings to my attention. I discussed with him reports that he's made. And in each case I've been satisfied with the progression of conversation. That I treat them as confidential is something that I do for everybody, so I can understand that there may be cause for frustration when the idea that progress is somehow immediate doesn't make itself obvious as being such, but that's hardly my problem.

Also as has been pointed out, telling us what we've never done before as a counter argument to why we shouldn't be doing it in the first place, THAT is whole cloth. As for prior individuals, their circumstances were before my time, I have no idea what level of engagement THEY sought out with regards to their problems. Maybe they felt that they didn't have any, which only made matters worse. If people have gotten used to the idea that they get to drive out people that they don't "get" or understand or feel don't fit into their criteria, that's on them to deal with the disappointment, because any community that wants to call itself such DOES have a responsibility.

We're supposed to function more than just "keep the lights on". If that WAS our only function, this discussion wouldn't be taking place, and we'd likely have even fewer members as every board would be like Gen Disc. We Administrate and Moderate not just the forum in a technical aspect, but also in a Community aspect, which to my mind entails that we deal with people and their problems.

Did I decide to step up and handle this? Not as such, no. But I was reached out to and asked for assistance and clarification and help. And not for the first time, probably not for the last time. That nobody else reaches/has reached out to me, is nothing more than that they haven't done so.

As for the argument that "Well, this is just a modding forum" as if that resolves everything nicely, it doesn't. Just because we are specific in our underlying/over-arching purpose doesn't mean we get to be exclusionary of who gets to be a part of it. We've already had plenty of people leave this community who would have been outstanding contributors. We have no idea how many people have frankly not even bothered.

In any case, the specifics for how long said ban will be in effect for will happen internally. As will discussions regarding who said what to whom. I still don't agree with the post that was specifically made into the "last straw" per-se, which will also be a part of that conversation, but I can acknowledge the idea of persistent presence leading to action and so far as actions are concerned, GenDisc ban alone is the least amount of disruption even though I really don't feel it is necessary at this immediate time.

[headdie]

So as I understand the situation

Lorric's behavior has been noted by the moderating and to some degree the admin staff of the forum

at some point in the last 60+ days some of the mod/admin staff took the very unusual step of intervening on Lorric's behalf and attempt to help Lorric become a less ???reported??? member of the community

In the last week+ parts of that plan seem to have come undone and a GD ban (monkeying?) of yet indeterminate length is in place
...................

Most of the admin/moderation members are of the opinion that the normal policy of warning followed by Bans if that fails should be maintained??????

Some believe that a more educational/Carrot+Stick approach should be taken?
...................

So for what it's worth

1.) My opinion reflects those that say that informal agreements like this cant be forever binding and for an undertaking like this is no improvement is observed by the general community then I think it does need to be re-examined by those involved.

2.) As someone who averages 2-4 reports per year which I am notified of I find it outstanding that this has gone on for so long.

3.) Is it possible to implement and if so what are the merits of implementing a thread based "cooldown" option where a mod can place someone a block from posting to a thread for a set time which auto reverts at the end of this time as a formal step in between reports and ban/monkey

4.) Ultimately in this case we sorely need BW's input for this thread to progress in a manner most advantageous to the community.

[Phantom Hoover]

Zacam: One last thing: is Lorric's decision to air all this in public not, in itself, an actionable offence? That was definitely the impression you gave me when discussing my ban.

[headdie]

Zacam: One last thing: is Lorric's decision to air all this in public not, in itself, an actionable offence? That was definitely the impression you gave me when discussing my ban.

It has proved to be in the past, Trashman springs to mind.

the norm is certainly to take it up with the mod/admins involved in pm, though given how things seem to have played out (to my understanding) over the last few months, I am interested to see how this plays out, and who knows it may yet happen, but I also think in times like this its best to let things play out while they are reasonable and make a final judgment at the end, while the public court holds some influence in HLP, it must also be noted that often it can have the reverse effect on the final decision or be insufficient / discounted entirely for the final call.

edit
clarified where mod/admin discussions normally should happen

[Lorric]

It's alright if it's done in site support in a separate thread. It's not alright if it's done in the thread the moderation took place in because that derails the thread.

[NGTM-1R]

Now, NG speaks about how Lorric hasn't been "the best candidate". I don't honestly know what this can possibly mean,

It's literally explained. It's even criteria that can be evaluated regarding public displays of contrition for bad behavior. If you don't read my previous postings before trying to read my current ones, you may not understand. This is something I've seen done many times to various people; MP-Ryan most recently in our thread on the latest women in gaming blowup, where people refuse to read his postings except in isolation.

They're not meant to be read in isolation. Posts build on previous posts.

What is objective and already established is that Lorric was proactive in trying to both understand his failures and asking for help.

I'd want to see what he said before I made that assumption. Reaching out isn't necessarily a sign of seeking understanding; it can, for example, be a sign of continuing to badger or seeking to argue by other means. I don't know what Lorric was trying to accomplish there, and I'm not sure anyone but Lorric does given the demonstrated fact of his difficulties communicating. If this actually happened in a private appeal to the moderators, perhaps so, but I point you to the many, many threads where Lorric failed to understand that he was doing something wrong despite repeated attempts by people like The E and MP-Ryan and myself and probably a half-dozen others to explain with varying levels of patience and gentleness. Go look at the Tropes vs. Women threads for examples. He eventually progressed to outright dismissing people trying to explain a failure to him; witness his recently locked thread in Gaming Discussion where he told off Scotty for trying to explain that his effort was misguided.

If that's your definition of proactive, okay, but I don't know that he actually sought anyone out and asked them to explain his failures, and I can produce plenty of evidence that suggests the opposite.

Hackneyed or not, MJN is perfectly entitled to state that "fairness" is not an objective assessment, it's always imperfect and all authority actions will always be considered "unfair" by a good amount of people. It's the nature of institutions and humans, I've yet to encounter an institution wherein all humans think it's amazingly fair without brainwashing or totalitarian mind control being happening.

That has...pretty much nothing to do with my statement at all. The point is not that fairness is possible; it is that the very reason for this discussion is because at least some of the participants that we should be trying to be fair, and coming in and announcing "nothing's fair get over it" offers nothing to a discussion of how this event is or is not fair and how it could be handled better. MJN's post announcing that nothing is fair does not contribute to that discussion; it announces facts we already know and are arguably related, but aren't really of interest to the discussion of how fair this was and how it could be moreso. It also claims none of us should care, and we're whiny if we do.

Lorric and I obviously do care. I daresay Karajorma and ShadowWolf appear to care about the fairness of the outcome because they seem to have stated it was fair, and done so as though that matters to them. In case it's not obvious I think it was more than fair and I'm curious why this approach was adopted; Lorric apparently does not think it was fair. That's a lot of whining.

Also as has been pointed out, telling us what we've never done before as a counter argument to why we shouldn't be doing it in the first place, THAT is whole cloth. As for prior individuals, their circumstances were before my time, I have no idea what level of engagement THEY sought out with regards to their problems. Maybe they felt that they didn't have any, which only made matters worse. If people have gotten used to the idea that they get to drive out people that they don't "get" or understand or feel don't fit into their criteria, that's on them to deal with the disappointment, because any community that wants to call itself such DOES have a responsibility.

We're supposed to function more than just "keep the lights on". If that WAS our only function, this discussion wouldn't be taking place, and we'd likely have even fewer members as every board would be like Gen Disc. We Administrate and Moderate not just the forum in a technical aspect, but also in a Community aspect, which to my mind entails that we deal with people and their problems.

It's weird reading this, because it talks around the points I was making yet acts as if it was addressing them.

The idea that if someone reaches out to the mods and asks for explanation they will be treated better is not merely new, it's probably in direct contrast to most public experiences with the mods. Phantom Hoover was recently not treated better when he requested someone end his monkeying as it had been scheduled. Lorric isn't being treated better now. Trashman hasn't been treated better for discussing his issues; we've had at least one person banned because they continued to protest what they had done was innocent (it wasn't, pretty much everyone agreed, but pattern of behavior). In private I have little reason to think things are different, and have some personal experience that says otherwise when I was in a similar situation to Phantom Hover. How many of us as children argued with their parents or teacher over a punishment and were punished worse because of it?

When we had a discussion about people not using the report system, it was made a point that people didn't do so because mod intervention was far too much like summoning Godzilla, the results were unpredictable and destructive. The idea that when punished we should try to engage and discuss this with our punishers is...well, on a personal level, I can't really think of many times trying to do so has ended well for me in life and I doubt I'm alone in that. Lorric being willing to speaks to his courage, or perhaps his separation from normal behavior and life experience. Which ties in as evidence of my next point applying.

You've entirely ignored the point that someone with such obvious, longstanding, and intractable issues is probably in need of help beyond that laymen should be giving, and there's a good chance by allowing them to continue we're making things worse. (To say nothing of the net loss to the community via aggravation, derailment, and the urge to abandon civility in the face of an apparently pointless struggle.) To use a past example, we all knew there was something very bizarre about High Max's behavior, and while some people speculated he was autistic or had other mental difficulties, I don't think we have any qualified psychologists about who should have been diagnosing, much less trying to help, someone with his issues. Something similar can be said of the current case; we are not dealing with someone who merely flies into a rage about certain issues like Liberator with perceived attacks on religion or Kazan's "Free Willy" circumcision meltdowns. There is a fundamental disconnect between the thinking of the person in question and a fair number of forumites who have tried to explain various issues to him, and it is not something any of us (barring, again, the qualified psychologist on staff I don't know about) are equipped to diagnose, much less fix. It's admirable he wants help, if that is his intent, and admirable you desire to help him. But you are ignoring the question of whether you actually know how to help or that help is something you should be trying to give someone when you don't.

There comes an end to your competencies, a point beyond which your desire to help is no longer enough to enable you to do so, and I would submit that over the last three years and all that has occurred in them, many people have tried to help and/or explain, and none of them has made an impact over the long term. The problem is beyond your ability, as it was beyond Battuta's, as it was beyond The E's, as it was beyond mine, as it was beyond MP-Ryan, as it was beyond pretty much everyone else who tried to explain to Lorric why his latest posting provoked a negative response or why everyone didn't think he should have been involved in a particular debate or why he was factually incorrect about a particular issue or why he didn't understand a particular issue he was holding forth about.

It's the same thing over and over again. And it's time to recognize that we can't help, and that trying is hurting us.

[Zacam]

Eloquently put points, even if I don't entirely agree with the summation of them all, that is indeed a good and thoughtful post that I'm going to re-read later.

I'll submit that my aid to Lorric may not be enough, as true. But as it is a more recent development in terms of the nature and level of it, whether I've reached a point beyond my capability is not an assumption anybody else gets to make just yet. Saying that you are helping somebody is also dependent on HOW you are helping them, and not all forms of what somebody might think of "helping" are the same, nor will they generate the same results. This doesn't make any one method inherently better or worse, these are not cookies being cut where they will all be identical in form and function.

For instance, there is a difference between talking TO somebody vs. talking WITH somebody and that is just as different as talking DOWN to somebody as if it'll make a point. They all involve "talking" but in different ways. Whether or not I will prove at being effective still remains to be seen, but I'm not as blind or oblivious as you seem to think I am and the nature of our individual abilities are derived from our personalities, circumstances and several other factors that would make for a lengthy list if I tried to lay them all out. Suffice, we are each different. I'm not assuming there will be success, but I'm not going to assume that there will be failure without attempting for success just because nobody else has achieved it.

I am hoping that the days of "Summon Godzilla!" (much less as a "And then I win the Internet") are going away, because yes, that is intrinsically flawed by any measure. And I find it disheartening that people don't feel that they have an ability for appeals or discussion about how the system has applied to them, but maybe that's because they don't know how to in a manner that results in actual conversation rather than just butting heads and requiring flame-retardant clothing. And we're certainly not "Parental" figures to the forum, even if many of our members are not of an age of majority or consent in their country of residence.

As for separations from "normal" behaviour and/or life experiences, depends on your definition of what constitutes normal, which again is going to have a significant number of factors in play to the extent that trying to define what "normal" is isn't going to get us very far. In terms of the context of this forum, even if somebody by all notions isn't "normal" is that necessarily the only emphasis we need for ejecting them out of hand? Treating one person as other people have been treated because you think they fit the context of those other people, removes the context of treating them as the individual they are.

[Phantom Hoover]

You have read what ShadowWolf said, right? Because it basically says all that needs to be said here.

[Black Wolf]

I'm sorry its taken me so long to get around to this thread - I've had time to read, but the half hour of solid time that it takes to sit down and write a proper response has been lacking in my life lately. But I do have some things to say.

The arrangement with Lorric came about for the simple reason that he asked for help, which is something that I have never actually seen before. It wasn't a case of asking for special treatment or asking to have some moderation action undone - it was a case of a forum member recognizing that he wasn't fitting in, and trying to get help to change that. The reason that it hasn't happened before is because, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever asked for that kind of help before. The vast majority of user-moderator interactions tend to be hostile, unfortunately, as opposed to constructive - this was something new.

The nature of the agreement wasn't that Lorric would get any kind of special treatment - it was that I would try to talk to him and tell him when he was potentially going to cause trouble, out that he could talk to me when he wasn't sure about something, and that he wouldn't get unilaterally banned from the forum by admins or mods that he perceived hostility from. Not that he wouldn't be banned - just that it would happen in an environment of consensus, which, frankly, is pretty much how almost all major mod decisions get made.

Now, whether it worked out not is open for debate, but I think that Lorric's forum interactions have improved gradually over time, from both before and after we started communicating. I think the fact that someone like Sppon, with whom Lorric has had well known issues in the past, is willing to take part in this thread in a non confrontational way, is testament to that.

In terms of specific issues, who was told about what and when, yes, maybe there could have been more communication in the last several weeks, but this whole series of incidents has moved relatively quickly - the PM Lorric had spoken about where I told him things were going well happened prior to the explosion of reports and counter reports that set this whole process off.

With regards to the actual ban, well, a few days ago I was entirely in support - it shouldn't be underestimated how frustrating dealing with all of the forum drama can be. Even now, I don't think that a degree of time of from GD is unwarranted - I will be discussing the reasons why with Lorric privately, they certainly don't need any more sorting than they already receive.

Finally, I really think that this topic had very little potential to go well. This is something that the mods and admins need to discuss, and Lorric needs to be involved in, but I don't see much benefit from making a further public spectacle out of it.

[pecenipicek]

I will just point out the following regarding the reports. While they used to be "GODZILLA SUMMON GO!", it went better to "**** gets sorted out quickly".

Now, now its just "nothing happens and the reporter gets hit with a stick because its very definitely an "unwarranted report"". (and yes, i know, my particular style of reports hasnt served me any justice, no need to remind me.)


And Lorric has had his 3 years of trying to fit in. Frankly, i am amazed he managed to amass 2k posts in that time.
Is this community obliged to help him fit in? No.

He has also questioned his ban, publicly and as recent cases demonstrate, this should've warranted an immediate, even heavier stick to come down on him. Yet he ends up being protected.
All i can see here is a heavy case of favorizing and its beyond anything i can remember having happened in the last few years here.

As far as i see this, i am sorry, moderation is not supposed to be "fair", "caring" or "helping people adjust". Moderation is supposed to keep the house whole when somebody tries to destroy it.

[Spoon]

Now, whether it worked out not is open for debate, but I think that Lorric's forum interactions have improved gradually over time, from both before and after we started communicating. I think the fact that someone like Sppon, with whom Lorric has had well known issues in the past, is willing to take part in this thread in a non confrontational way, is testament to that.

Hmm to quote Luis Dias on this

I should also note that you speak as if Lorric of 2011 = Lorric of 2014. I don't think both avatar personas would even recognize each other of being from the same genetic family.

Back in 2012, Lorric made a string of rather unforunate posts that pretty much put him under a giant magnifying glass for the rest of his time here. (Amusingly, the rest of the forum was probably more upset about those posts than I was). It was incredibly naïve of him and for the longest of time he believed he had done little to be faulted for.
Buuuut, Lorric has done a fair amount of learning and has actively tried to change and I do think a lot of that shows now in his posts. (Sure, he might not be a snarky asshat yet that seems to be half the requirement to fit in with GD but hey.) Zacam asked me once what my opinion on the matter was and I vouched for Lorric, he still has a ways to go, but I saw he was definitely improving and felt like he should be given the chance to develop. I mean, if you look at the post quality of a long standing member like Nuke who shows no signs of improving at all...

Now mind you, this is not a plea on his behalf to not have him be banned from GD or anything (if anything I think a ban like that will do him good, even if he doesnt see it himself), I'm just sharin' ya know.

[Lorric]

To be honest, Lorric. I don't think you are missing out much by not posting in GD. You should just take this in stride, keep HLP as a source for Freespace related things and find some other forum for general conversation. 

Buuuut, Lorric has done a fair amount of learning and has actively tried to change and I do think a lot of that shows now in his posts. (Sure, he might not be a snarky asshat yet that seems to be half the requirement to fit in with GD but hey.)

4: Most of the time, GenDisc could be relabeled to "Non-FS Threads of Epic HLP Fights"... and Lorric is who everyone is worried about? What about the intolerant assholes who post in threads just to stir it up? C'mon, we all know who they are. They are the reason I stopped regularly reading GenDisc.

When you've got two such prominent members of this community who feel this way about the Gen Disc forum, I think this is indicative of a much larger problem in that forum than anything I might have done to disrupt it. Since this thread seems to have basically run its course, at least for now, with regards to me, I'd be interested in seeing some discussion of this, since we've already seen some discussion about the wider community in here.

[Luis Dias]

It might be indicative of such but given the nature of this thread and your part in it, I strongly advise you to not make any attempt to guide or lead or advise that particular can of worms. If that particular conversation occurs I even advise you to lay low and merely lurk the debate, don't participate in any way. If you don't understand why, at least be aware of the absolute certainty that your presence in that discussion, given this thread, would drive some particular people up the wall and utterly wreck it from the get go.

Having said this, all I want to add is that you should henceforth accept the temporary ban as it is and not take it to heart. I have to agree that while I am sympathetic to you, this kind of thread is not kosher, especially when you are basically accusing someone we widely respect as someone with great character, honesty and commitment as "lying". No matter how you may feel it accurately describes your situation well, it certainly won't get moderators to bend your ways.

I Finally I had things to say regarding what NG said, not so much a factual disagreement, more lione'sphilosophical difference or one of attitude. I do think what NG said is fair from a certain point if view, it's probably a matter of degree. I don't agree with this notion that problems have their own specialist boxes and that if everyone would just get to go away to their own specialist box to fix their precise problem then every thing works out. I have this idea where we are all part of a human community and that empathy and a degree of tolerance is absolutely required for us not only to get along, but to avoid everyone be tossed into their own box.

I don't think NG even disagrees with me here, as I said it all probably boils down to one's degree.

[Lorric]

It might be indicative of such but given the nature of this thread and your part in it, I strongly advise you to not make any attempt to guide or lead or advise that particular can of worms. If that particular conversation occurs I even advise you to lay low and merely lurk the debate, don't participate in any way. If you don't understand why, at least be aware of the absolute certainty that your presence in that discussion, given this thread, would drive some particular people up the wall and utterly wreck it from the get go.

Thank you. I will take your advice.

[MP-Ryan]

I'm late to this party, and only here because Lorric PM'ed me about it apparently hoping I'd intercede because the guidelines have been violated or something.  I'll try to keep this short.  Apologies for typos, autocorrect often changes my words to things I did not want to type from things I did because it has the vocabulary of a vacuum cleaner.

1.  While I was surprised at the ban reaction, I am also aware that reports and moderation occur behind the scenes.  Perhaps the ban was appropriate and perhaps it wasn't - reading this thread has't changed my mind either way.

2.  Lorric's behaviour in GD is a far cry from the most disruptive or harmful.  Even at his worst he's never been more than persistently and obnoxiously oblivious despite any attempt to correct him.  Yes, that's a problem and it acts as a catalyst for flaring tempers, but it strikes me as odd that the irritation Lorric causes gets more moderation than some of the other disruptions.
 
3.  In general - and this is not personal, guys - I don't think the moderators having been doing a stellar job of early intervention to promote better discussion because none of the early stuff is happening in public; rather, it seems the final product is the only real action we see in public, which has zero deterrent effect in general.  I think the admin team should reread the guidelines and attempt to shift their work to fit better with their spirit.  Progress has been made, but more is needed.

[Lorric]

To clarify, I PM'd MP-Ryan after I posted this:

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=88302.msg1762203#msg1762203

Saying that those guidelines haven't been followed. It reminded me of his role in their creation.

Thank you for posting MP-Ryan.

[Flipside]

Take a step back.

Y'See, it's this habit of yours of giving in to temptation when two posts previously you had said you would listen to the advice given you by Luis Dias that lands you in these situations in the first place

It seems to me there's been a severe breakdown in communication somewhere here, it's good to see the discussion has come down a notch at least.

Now, I'll say again that everything ShadowWolf said was true, that's not a judgement on Lorrics behaviour, it's a judgement on some of the more unsavoury moments of General Discussion in particular.

I don't want GD to turn into  a 'have your drama here zone', nor do I particularly want it to see a place where only rage inducing threads are of interest. We've had some wonderful conversations in there on such topics as Interstellar Travel, the definition of 'Human', the early moments of the Universe, we've even managed to have intelligent and well-mannered debates on things like Global Warming, Interpretation of Religious text, Freedom of Speech etc, the list goes on. It is possible, we have done it.

I like that side of General Discussion, I'd like to see more of that kind of stuff, but members of this community have admitted in the past that they avoid it because it's too much Drama. I'd rather have a GD that was avoided for the opposite reason, because it's for General Discussion not Drama.

That doesn't mean banning any subject or opinion, I believe this community is smart enough to be able to have conversations on most topics and remain respectful of those they disagree with, it just takes a bit of self-control, Moderation is not censorship, it's keeping things Moderate, the clue is in the name.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

members of this community have admitted in the past that they avoid it because it's too much Drama.

I fall into that category. 

we've even managed to have intelligent and well-mannered debates on things like Global Warming, Interpretation of Religious text, Freedom of Speech etc, the list goes on. It is possible, we have done it.

I've taken part in some of those.  I also took part in a discussion between people from two separate religions, and it was in fact a discussion.  It can happen.  In order for this to happen, perceived respect must be present.  Note, perceived respect.  I am not saying that we should all respect one another, although it would be nice I know that it will not happen.  However, if you perceive respect from someone, you are less likely to take offense at something that they say.  If they perceive respect, they are less likely as well.  Respect doesn't have to be real, simply perceived.  Post from a position of respect, and many many problems will be avoided. 

We have discussed the behavior in GenDisc many times, and there have been a number of opinions on what to do about it.  My answer is the simple approach.  Three strikes within a one year period = monkey for a month.  Making a public spectacle such as this = yet another month.  Things of this nature should be handled privately.  We have IRC rooms, it wouldn't be hard to set a time and date for a discussion to take place that works for all parties NEEDING to be involved, in a private chat, and settling it without the interference of the community at large chiming in and mucking up the works.  Or you could make a forum called appeals, give the person access, once things are wrapped up, remove access, and delete the thread, this way the next person can't see what transpired.

Personally, the real time chat would be the better option, as I know how we loathe thread deletion.

Remember though, if we speak from a position of wanting to avoid conflict, we will generally succeed, and then there will be no need for anything beyond the discussion.

[Phantom Hoover]

Do you really mean monkey there? Monkeying is a ban from everywhere but site support and internals; political prisoners is the one that keeps you out of GD, and I think it's much more appropriate in cases such as this.