Author Topic: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.  (Read 6621 times)

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Offline jr2

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Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
Ran across this, not sure if anything new included but learned of a few new claimed aspects of good news (if true).

How about this article that says it is possible using the basics of the Alcubierre drive?  Initially needed negative mass energy and enough positive energy as an entire star.  But there is research suggesting this *might* not be the case.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2014/09/17/close-star-trek-propulsion/#.VBsQnvmwK8M

>Similarly, there are warp bubbles that would be much easier to achieve energetically than the one Alcubierre used in his calculations. The Alcubierre warp bubble has walls with a thickness on the scale of what’s called a Planck length (~1.62 x 10-35 meters), but if you increase the wall thickness up to a few hundred nanometers, meaning the size range of the wavelengths of visible light, it turns out that the energy requirement plummets.

>And not only does the technology become more feasible from a quantitative standpoint (i.e. the amount of energy needed), but from a qualitative standpoint as well. “Not only does the thicker bubble wall mean that we’d need a lot less energy to generate the warp, but it also means we might do it with electromagnetic technology,” explains Eric Davis, a breakthrough propulsion physicist at the Institute for Advanced Studies in Austin, Texas. “And that’s precisely the kind of technology that we humans have developed.” Just think about that cell phone.

>In other words, changing a few numbers in Alcubierre’s calculations makes warp at least thinkable in terms of doable technology. Based on similar tweaked calculations, White has also figured out that space can be softened to a certain extent, like changing the wooden table into foam, making it that much easier to compress. Another tweak, discovered by Davis, is that if the warp generator is pulsed, i.e. turned on and off really fast, that reduces the energy requirement further. **And, by the way, even the need for negative energy that I mentioned earlier need not be a show-stopper, since there is a kind of negative energy — negative vacuum energy — that could be created by certain capabilities that we have, including lasers and a technology known as quantum optics.**

There's also links to show that there are ways to bend space without negative energy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp-field_experiments#mediaviewer/File:Spacetime_expansion_boost.jpg

 

Offline The E

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Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
Yes, those results are well-known and were discussed in the last thread we had on the Alcubierre drive. They still don't cancel out some of the more esoteric requirements of the drive (such as the need for exotic matter) and the accompanying question about feasibility.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
well, supposedly there is some mention of a way to get our alcubire drives without negative mass (or otherwise using some sort of arrangement of positive energy to get the same local effect as negative). I cannot find any detailed explanation of this anywhere so it might just be a misunderstanding of a few reporters but it that is a thing that would be big.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
You can make a perfectly good Alcubierre drive without negative energy, but it won't be able to go FTL. Sub-light Alcubierre would still be a pretty big deal, since it'd mean freedom from the Tsialkowsky's rocket equation - the drive would not expel any reaction mass, and therefore it'd have (potentially) infinite Isp, under "KSP terms" (not that you could really apply them to such a drive). You could run it as long as you can keep it powered, and you should also be able to get the bubble pretty close to the speed of light, even if you won't exceed it. Alcubierre drive is essentially the coveted "reactionless drive". Charlatans from around the world sometimes invent those, but it's the only one with a scientific basis.

The bottom line is, there'd be no time dilation inside the bubble (at least, according to the way I understand the effect), so a 4-LY interstellar flight would still take 4 years both inside and outside. With a normal drive, an interstellar journey can still be as short as you like, but beyond a certain point it only becomes shorter from your point of view (there's nothing preventing you from getting to Alpha Centauri in one day if you've got fuel for that. It's just that 4 years will pass on Earth while you're doing it. Relativity is weird, though this makes perfect sense if you get into it). In a way, lack of FTL travel is not your problem. It's the problem of all those stuck on a planet you're taking off from. :)

 

Offline AtomicClucker

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Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
Ah, not too mention the particle blast of radioactive solar system shattering doom!
Blame Blue Planet for my Freespace2 addiction.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
A sub-light version shouldn't have that (though any space dust encountered along the way can and will shoot out in a somewhat similar way), but yeah, an FTL Alcubierre would indeed cause a great big flash of radiation in front of it when shut off. I don't know what magnitudes we're talking about, but I think that it'd be sufficient to either avoid pointing directly at your destination, or just shut the drive off in interplantary space and do that last few light-minutes using a normal drive. When it comes to Earth, you might want to do this even with STL version. Nobody wants a space dust-based shotgun to take out his satellite. :)

 

Offline The E

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Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
Dragon, I'm curious, where exactly did you find a variant of the Alcubierre drive that does not require exotic matter?
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
yeah, I've heard mention of that a few times and that is real interesting but I haven't been able to find a source on it.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
Dragon, I'm curious, where exactly did you find a variant of the Alcubierre drive that does not require exotic matter?
Everything dr. Harold White does is based on sub-light version of the effect, and he's not looking for exotic matter or anything like that. The FTL Alcubierre drive is actually an extrapolation of an effect that should be possible to induce and measure with normal matter, in STL conditions. It's kind of analogous with how you can have FTL particles just fine, it's just that their mass would have to be imaginary. While I'm not sitting in this like White does, I presume that it has to do with a squared Lorenz factor being in the energy equations somewhere (wouldn't be surprising, it pops up all over the place in relativity). Generally, aside from singularities at v=c itself, relativistic equations generally make sense at v>c, but something is bound to end up either imaginary or negative, due to the aforementioned Lorenz factor being everywhere (it's 0 when v=c and imaginary when v>c. An imaginary number gives a negative number if squared). The above assessment might, of course, be totally wrong, but if it is, then it's likely hard to explain on a forum without LaTeX support.

Of course, it's all assuming it works like we think it does. Last time I checked, experiments were inconclusive on the issue. While finding out it doesn't work would be interesting on it's own, it'd be not nearly be as exciting as finding out that a reactionless drive is possible.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
yeah, one of those rare times when "we were right" would be the more interesting result of the experiment.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
Well, that depends on who "we" are. :) This theory is somewhat divisive in the scientific community, with various very good theoretical physicists presenting equally convincing "for" and "against" arguments. That said, dr. White is the only experimental physicist who seems to have anything to publish on this effect, and he seems optimistic. Once he gets conclusive results, some theories will need serious revising (or even outright discarding) either way. Of course, every SF fan (myself included) likely hopes he's right. :) Also, aside from interstellar drives, I can imagine applications of this effect in research on gravity (it can be though of as curvature of space, and if White is right, then we'll have a convenient way to mess with this curvature).

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
yeah, there's lots of applications for this, i mean artificial gravity?
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
Well, this depends on how malleable this "bubble" would be, but I don't think so. It might give us insight into nature of gravity, though. The big problem with gravity is that not only that it's weak, we've got no real way of affecting it and measuring the effects (we can move mass around, but to get a measurable effect, we'd need a huge amount of it). This could be such a way, if we can artificially curve spacetime, then we could be able to find something out about it's nature.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
The big problem with gravity is that not only that it's weak, we've got no real way of affecting it and measuring the effects (we can move mass around, but to get a measurable effect, we'd need a huge amount of it).

I wouldn't say that. The effects of gravity are measurable between fairly small (albeit macroscopic) objects, and you don't even need supercomputers or lasers to get measurable readings.


However if you meant piling up enough matter to meaningfully alter the geometry of space-time (ie. cause a measurable distortion from locally euclidian curvature), that's a bit of a different matter.


In fact the view that gravity is "weak" is a sort of problematic statement since it depends so wildly on context. If you consider it a force, then yes it's locally much weaker than electroweak or strong interactions. However in large scale it's the dominant force in the universe.

And if you consider gravity from general relativity point of view, then it isn't actually weak at all. If you think about it, absolutely minuscule changes in space-time are enough to cause measurable gravitational effects, like an apparent attractive force between objects of matter - or bending of light as it passes next to a star. In that sense, I think gravity is actually quite a strong "force", or effect, from something that is really difficult to perceive.
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Offline watsisname

Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
The big problem with gravity is that not only that it's weak, we've got no real way of affecting it and measuring the effects (we can move mass around, but to get a measurable effect, we'd need a huge amount of it).
And if you consider gravity from general relativity point of view, then it isn't actually weak at all. If you think about it, absolutely minuscule changes in space-time are enough to cause measurable gravitational effects, like an apparent attractive force between objects of matter - or bending of light as it passes next to a star. In that sense, I think gravity is actually quite a strong "force", or effect, from something that is really difficult to perceive.

That's a very interesting way to view it -- small curvatures produce huge effects.  For the field at Earth's surface, the radius of curvature is something like a light-year.  Totally weak.  Yet the consequences are obvious. :)
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
Well to elaborate - "huge effects" is all relative, isn't it?

I mean, if the curvature at Earth's surface produces apparent acceleration due to gravity that is 9.81 m/s2, it's still a very small effect compared to something extreme - like the gravitational acceleration* at an event horizon...

In the scale from "zero" to "event horizon", "small" curvatures produce "small" accelerations and extreme curvatures produce extreme accelerations (and other gravitational effects).

The only reason why the small accelerations produced by small curvatures seem so significant to us is because... they are very significant to us, and part of our every day life, and it is one of the defining factors of the cosmos on the level that we apes observe it. It's sort of the same thing as with quantum mechanics, but in reverse. The extremes of our universe are not intuitive to us.


*Which is a funny thing since it's not exactly a constant - the more massive black hole, the smaller the "surface" gravity is, if you define event horizon to be the surface.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 01:35:15 am by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline watsisname

Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
Indeed, and well said.  'Measurable' was the right word, not 'huge'.  I remark on how, when considered in the context of curvature, the gravitational fields we are familiar with seem incredibly insubstantial, yet we are intimately familiar with their effects.  Which is the whole idea, perspective matters.  We are used to weak fields, weak accelerations, and slow velocities, relative to the range of possibilities.  As you say, physics in this range is intuitive to us.  We know it hurts to fall and hit the ground.  We know its hard to climb a mountain.  We know it's hard to launch something into space.  That damned ever-present nuisance, gravity.  But we don't usually think about how a tiny magnet can overcome the gravitational pull of the entire planet.  How crazy is that?  Magnets are like magic, every child is at one time fascinated by them.  But it's just because it is a stronger field than what we are more used to, and it can both attract and repel.

Or how crazy is it that gravity doesn't ever actually hurt us here on Earth.  It is the impact, not the fall, as so many have pointed out.  The field accelerates us, but we don't feel it.  We are too small to feel it.  The curvature seems flat to us.  We only feel the electrostatic forces when we intersect something 'solid', and they are not so forgiving.  But the gravity of a black hole can kill you, rapidly, unavoidably, before you even reach the singularity.  The curvature itself tears you apart in one way, crushes you in the other.

It's probably for the best that the extremes of the universe are not intuitive to us; they're usually lethal.  :p
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
Magnets are like magic, every child is at one time fascinated by them.  But it's just because it is a stronger field than what we are more used to, and it can both attract and repel.

Magnets are crazy awesome in the sense that they always exist in dipoles. The force between two magnetic poles is analogous to force between two electric charges, so the force between magnetic dipole is also analogous to electric dipole - which means, magnets naturally provide us with a hands-on visualization about how electric dipoles behave, as well! Meaning that the force between two magnets (small bar magnets) is inversely proportional to the fourth power of the distance.

This means, basically, that when you're handling a bunch of bar magnets, their interactions are actually somewhat analogous to van der Waals forces between some simple diatomic molecules. They don't even need to be polar molecules in the chemical sense (like carbon monoxide) - every diatomic molecule behaves like a dipole to some extent because the electrons in the molecule are almost never perfectly evenly distributed... which creates continuously fluctuating dipoles in some direction. Which enables van der Waals forces even in non-polar substances, like H2 and N2, enabling them to have liquid phase at reasonably high temperatures... even though the effect is much weaker than with truly polar liquids. They fill a container, you can pour them, you can submerge objects in them... by contrast, liquid helium is some really un-intuitive stuff!

With some effort, you could build a retaining frame to hold some magnets in the shape of water molecule as well. That might be a pretty interesting visualization for physics classes. A box of small and strong enough water-molecule shaped magnets should, in theory, exhibit some similar bonding as water molecules do, with positive poles snapping onto negatives.

Actually now that I think about it, it should be possible to demonstrate other stuff as well with magnets. Like nuclear forces. With a clever configuration of magnets, you could create macroscopic objects that would behave somewhat like protons, others that would behave like neutrons, and you could build simple nuclei from them. You could even demonstrate unstable and stable nuclei, and the nuclear bond energy stored into the system...


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Or how crazy is it that gravity doesn't ever actually hurt us here on Earth.  It is the impact, not the fall, as so many have pointed out.  The field accelerates us, but we don't feel it.  We are too small to feel it.  The curvature seems flat to us.  We only feel the electrostatic forces when we intersect something 'solid', and they are not so forgiving.

I can feel electrostatic forces with the the hair on my arms! Or rather, I can use them to sense electric fields... but that's just another way of saying that an existing electric field exerts a force on the strands of hair on my arms, which I feel by the hair bending...

But the point about touch interaction is another interesting topic.

Turns out that repulsive Coulomb force between the electrons in two objects is just one part of the story. The aforementioned electronic fluctuation in matter causes small dipoles to form continuously, and those dipoles first produce an attractive force (van der Waals again) between the molecules as they approach each other, hence the gekko has enough adhesion to climb the wall and even stay on a roof.

There is also a balance point where the attractive dipole force is overcame by repulsive Coulomb force. However the story doesn't stop there, because it turns out that beyond that balance point, the repulsive force actually increases quite a bit faster than simple electric repulsion would suggest...



...which is fundamentally caused by Pauli exclusion principle.

Basically, when you touch something solid, the molecules on your skin first arrive at the balance point where there's neither attraction or repulsion between them and the foreign object.

If pressure is applied, your fingers don't sink into the object (much), partly because there's an electrostatic repulsive force that pushes against them, but the electrons also repulse each other because they simply cannot share the same quantum state.


And that's really sort of spooky interesting to me, because it turns out a fundamentally quantum characteristics of particles is, at least partially, responsible for something as basic as touch interaction.


About the only thing more freaky is that, apparently, we can smell the difference between molecules that have different quantum vibration characteristics...


...so if that's true, maybe quantum physics isn't actually so hopelessly inaccessible to our intuition as we've thought.

Maybe we just need to name quantum properties based on olfactory qualities instead of visual qualities like spin or colour charge? :drevil:


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But the gravity of a black hole can kill you, rapidly, unavoidably, before you even reach the singularity.  The curvature itself tears you apart in one way, crushes you in the other.

Not if the black hole is big enough! ;7

But hey, talking about visualizing or measuring the curvature of space...

What if you were to build a reasonably large container of known dimensions (a spherical container would be nice for its symmetry), and you would have a way to measure the volume of that container somehow, shouldn't you see a slight decrease in the volume as you send the container from Earth's surface to high orbit, like geostationary orbit?

Only problem is, I'm not sure how to measure the difference accurately enough to get reliable results. One way I thought of would just be gauging the internal diameter of the container by a laser distance meter; another would be to use the container as a microwave resonant cavity and measuring the changes in the resonant frequency.


The point is making the difference in the curvature of space measurable in a way that is sort of intuitively understandable. The question is - how accurately would you need to measure the volume, or cavity diameter, in order to be able to get meaningful results that can be separated from noise and actually correlated with the gravitational potential?
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Offline watsisname

Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
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Actually now that I think about it, it should be possible to demonstrate other stuff as well with magnets. Like nuclear forces. With a clever configuration of magnets, you could create macroscopic objects that would behave somewhat like protons, others that would behave like neutrons, and you could build simple nuclei from them. You could even demonstrate unstable and stable nuclei, and the nuclear bond energy stored into the system...

This is a really cool idea.  I fear the weight of the structure might become a problem as its size/complexity increases, but then you could just build it in orbit on the ISS or something.  I would love to see that!

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I can feel electrostatic forces with the the hair on my arms!
You certainly can!  Every particle in your body does not respond to the electrostatic field in the same way.  A charge builds up over the hairs on your arm and you can feel the resultant forces.  Not so with gravitational field.  All test particles falling together in some small region of a gravitational field will fall with the same acceleration.  Doesn't matter if they are feathers or hammers, hydrogen nuclei or gold.  And that's the whole point of the equivalence principle -- a local experiment cannot distinguish between freefall in a grav field, or weightlessness far from one.  The only clue is that for real gravitational fields there are tidal forces, but these vanish in sufficiently small reference frames.  So you cannot feel gravitation, unless the field is sufficiently strong and you are a sufficiently extended body (yes I am calling you fat). :)

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if that's true, maybe quantum physics isn't actually so hopelessly inaccessible to our intuition as we've thought.

Whoa.  I knew of some articles about quantum mechanical effects that might be apparent to biological systems (I think I remember in birds or something, it's been a while), but I didn't hear about us smelling them.  That reminds me of how special relativistic effects explain the particular yellowish hue of gold, which is pretty cool.  But then again, how much does it really help us, if our goal is to understand it so that we can do physics?  We can relabel phenomena with names that are more intuitive, but there's still that confusing, unintuitive logical framework we have to learn, and I think that's why things like QM are so hard.  For instance, we are used to thinking that if we understand the entirety of something, then we know everything about all of its components.  Or we are used to thinking that measuring a system does not meaningfully change it.  In QM these are not true.

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Not if the black hole is big enough!

Unless you thought I said event horizon instead of singularity, then that only makes the problem worse!  The kill radius of tidal forces increases as the cube root of mass. The radius of the event horizon grows faster (linear with mass), so for supermassive black holes you may survive well into the event horizon.  But there is always some non-zero proper time between getting spaghettified and meeting the singularity.  This time is pretty short -- some fraction of a second.  But the idea is that gravitation/curvature itself definitely can be felt, or even kill you directly, given the right circumstances.  It's basically the situation where the equivalence principle fails, when the curvature is apparent over your reference frame.

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What if you were to build a reasonably large container of known dimensions (a spherical container would be nice for its symmetry), and you would have a way to measure the volume of that container somehow, shouldn't you see a slight decrease in the volume as you send the container from Earth's surface to high orbit, like geostationary orbit?

*Thinks*.  No, I think you would actually expect the opposite result, or nothing.  The volume of an object decreases [edit: with decreasing R], as tidal forces compress it into smaller dimensions, trending toward zero volume as you approach a singularity.  In practice this would be really hard to measure for the Earth's field -- solid state physics would be critically important, like rigidity of the container, and that pesky thing that is thermal expansion.  You'd have to have a super small expansion coefficient and control temperature extremely sensitively. 

Also, I think what might be throwing you off here is that gravitation is not curvature of space.  It is curvature of space-time.

Let's look at a different thought experiment and see if that helps.  Consider two people on a firing range.  They aim to strike the same target, and they fire at the same time.  What do the trajectories look like?  The bullet is much faster than the arrow [citation needed], so it can follow a faster and more direct path to the target.  The arrow in comparison must sweep through a high arc, and it takes longer.  So their paths through space are not the same -- how could we explain them as being due to spatial curvature?  Their paths through time are different as well (same origin, different destination). 

What's going on is that the curvature of the two paths in space-time is the same.  They both have a radius of curvature of about 1 light year, if this thought experiment is happening on the surface of the Earth.  And that's what the geometric theory of gravity is all about -- gravitational field is manifest as curvature in four-dimensional space-time, not curvature of space or time individually.

What are the best ways to measure curvature of space-time?  Check for the separation of nearby geodesics.  In other words, check for tidal forces.  Consider two ships hovering above the Earth, at the same radius, but different (but constant) angular coordinates.  Let them be within line of sight of each other, and they measure the distance between them by laser.  Now, let them fall, accelerated only by gravity.  They both accelerate toward the center of the Earth, but since they had slightly different angular coordinates to start with, their paths will draw nearer to one another.  The distance separating them decreases.  There is a tidal force acting on them.  It seems like there is an acceleration between them.

Now consider two ships at the same angular coordinate, but different radius.  They proceed into freefall.  The ship at smaller radius has a greater acceleration toward the Earth, so the distance between them increases.  Again, tidal force, except now in the case of objects oriented radially to the acceleration vector.

One of the fundamental pieces of the derivation of general relativity is to produce the curvature tensor from the equation of geodetic deviation, which works just like in the above examples.  Tidal forces and curvature are very tightly linked. :)

edit:  typose.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 09:19:29 pm by watsisname »
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Alcuby drive new info? - not sure if covered already.
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I knew of some articles about quantum mechanical effects that might be apparent to biological systems (I think I remember in birds or something, it's been a while), but I didn't hear about us smelling them.

The research is ongoing and inconclusive, but certainly it appears that at least some animals can do it.

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Unless you thought I said event horizon instead of singularity, then that only makes the problem worse!

Yeah, I thought you referred to crossing event horizon instead of falling to singularity (which, I should note, I suspect is a mathematical artefact from the theory rather than a physical object at the "bottom" of the black hole).

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*Thinks*.  No, I think you would actually expect the opposite result, or nothing.  The volume of an object decreases [edit: with decreasing R], as tidal forces compress it into smaller dimensions, trending toward zero volume as you approach a singularity.  In practice this would be really hard to measure for the Earth's field -- solid state physics would be critically important, like rigidity of the container, and that pesky thing that is thermal expansion.  You'd have to have a super small expansion coefficient and control temperature extremely sensitively.

Also, I think what might be throwing you off here is that gravitation is not curvature of space.  It is curvature of space-time.

Let's look at a different thought experiment and see if that helps.  Consider two people on a firing range.  They aim to strike the same target, and they fire at the same time.  What do the trajectories look like?  The bullet is much faster than the arrow [citation needed], so it can follow a faster and more direct path to the target.  The arrow in comparison must sweep through a high arc, and it takes longer.  So their paths through space are not the same -- how could we explain them as being due to spatial curvature?  Their paths through time are different as well (same origin, different destination).

What's going on is that the curvature of the two paths in space-time is the same.  They both have a radius of curvature of about 1 light year, if this thought experiment is happening on the surface of the Earth.  And that's what the geometric theory of gravity is all about -- gravitational field is manifest as curvature in four-dimensional space-time, not curvature of space or time individually.

What are the best ways to measure curvature of space-time?  Check for the separation of nearby geodesics.  In other words, check for tidal forces.  Consider two ships hovering above the Earth, at the same radius, but different (but constant) angular coordinates.  Let them be within line of sight of each other, and they measure the distance between them by laser.  Now, let them fall, accelerated only by gravity.  They both accelerate toward the center of the Earth, but since they had slightly different angular coordinates to start with, their paths will draw nearer to one another.  The distance separating them decreases.  There is a tidal force acting on them.  It seems like there is an acceleration between them.

Now consider two ships at the same angular coordinate, but different radius.  They proceed into freefall.  The ship at smaller radius has a greater acceleration toward the Earth, so the distance between them increases.  Again, tidal force, except now in the case of objects oriented radially to the acceleration vector.

One of the fundamental pieces of the derivation of general relativity is to produce the curvature tensor from the equation of geodetic deviation, which works just like in the above examples.  Tidal forces and curvature are very tightly linked.

Hang on now, I'm not following you.

I'm sure you're aware of the gravitational time dilation causing a time difference between surface and satellites, being substantial enough that GPS and other geolocation systems need to be specifically corrected to take it into account.

Doesn't gravity cause time and space to stretch equally, though? I'm imagining a thin, rigid shell that has a certain amount of space within it. The circumference of the shell should be expected to remain constant, because it's made of atoms and molecules that tend to balance at a certain distance from each other.

In other words, going across the surface, counting each interval between atoms and adding them together until I've crossed the surface and arrived back to where I begun, I would expect to arrive at the same result for the circumference of the container both on surface and in orbit.


So... if we have this rigid* shell on Earth's surface and we measure the inner diameter to be s = t*c (the time it takes for light pulse to cross the cavity, multiplied by speed of light of course).

On orbit (further from Earth's mass), we should measure the inner diameter to be s0 = t0*c, again the time it takes for a light pulse to cross the cavity in those conditions.

In my visualization, when space is curved (and, correspondingly, time is stretched), light has a longer way to travel, so it takes a longer time for it to pass through that region of space. Isn't that how gravitational lensing works? If a wavefront of radiation passes next to a massive object, the photons nearer the disturbance have a longer way to travel, which causes the inner part of the wavefront to be delayed (and curved).

I would expect that the result for measuring the diameter of the container should be t>t0 and correspondingly s>s0 - on orbit, light takes a shorter time to travel through the container and therefore the distance is measured slightly shorter than on Earth.


Which to me would suggest that the internal volume of the spherical shell should decrease slightly when it is hoisted from surface to orbit. Of course the measurement would be really challenging to do because the effect is so small, but that's what I would expect.

Using the analogy of different paths: On Earth, the photon travels horizontally through the container on a more curved and therefore longer path. On orbit, the photon's trajectory through the container is flatter and thus more rapid. In perfectly flat, euclidian space (closest would be intergalactic space I guess) the photon travels through container in perfectly linear trajectory, which results in smallest measured internal diameter possible.


I'm not sure if tidal forces have anything to do with this, though. I would expect this to work the same in homogenous gravity fields of different magnitudes.



Of course, rigidity of the sphere is a pretty big assumption, but would there really be any particular distortions that would affect things? Tidal forces of course could make the container asymmetric.

But what if you idealize the situation, and instead ask: What is the volume of a sphere with circumference c in euclidian flat geometry, and what is the volume of a sphere with circumference c in curved space-time? And does the diameter of the sphere measured through the sphere change based on curvature of the space?
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