Author Topic: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!  (Read 41400 times)

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
Episode 6 is filled with badness. The whole Tatooine stuff is not smart, the whole Ewoks stuff is maddeningly bad. The only redeemable things are, obviously, the Battle of Endor and the fight between Luke and his father.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
Not smart in what way?  I thought it served as a way to illustrate the change in Luke's thinking.  Where before he rushed in with no plan and no preparation, for the encounter at Jabba's Palace it's clear from the get-go that he's put significant thought into this.  The fact that it doesn't go off without a hitch hints at his lingering inexperience, but the plan succeeds where shooting up the joint starting at the front door wouldn't have gotten far at all.  I can understand not liking it (especially if you watch the 'remastered' versions with the awful singing :ick:), but calling it bad is simply wrong.

The Ewoks I don't particularly like and would rather they have been Wookies like my vague memory recalls about the original script.  Instead, we got "kid friendly".  If you just pretend that they're Wookies instead, the whole thing is much better.    The non-Ewok parts of Endor are pretty cool, too.  The cinematography to shoot the speeder bike chase was imaginative and the scenery itself is used in typical Star Wars fashion - that is to say, the environment is not neglected as backdrop and is instead a thing for the characters to interact with, coming with its own struggles and conflict.  Go watch one of the Indiana Jones movies, for an example that's still closely related, and the desert in Raiders of the Lost Ark is important only because it's Egypt and therefore must be desert.  The jungle temple in the intro is in a jungle only because hidden temples are found in the jungle.  Tatooine is a barren wasteland, and A New Hope is able to convey the sense that there is nothing there except endless desert and harsh terrain (and none of that "I hate sand" obvious commentary).  Hoth is a show of the total desperation the Alliance faces and in the early movie even emerges as an antagonist in its own right.  Dagobah is a twisted, gnarled swamp that Luke must conquer in order to overcome his own twisted, gnarled impulses toward rage and hate and despair.  Bespin is an impossible utopia, both in the sense that cities obviously can't float in the air, and that the utopia is a thin veneer over a bed of harsh industry and betrayal.  Endor becomes an antagonist like Hoth with the speeder bike chase, and also demonstrates without the anvil dropping flavor of something like The Day After Tomorrow that nature fights back against human disruption and machinery. 

And again, you can perfectly well not like something.  I don't like the Ewoks, and I've never particularly liked Jabba's Palace (and even less the more successive releases come out), but calling them bad is something I'm prepared to discuss at length in the opposite direction. :P

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
Not smart in what way?  I thought it served as a way to illustrate the change in Luke's thinking.  Where before he rushed in with no plan and no preparation, for the encounter at Jabba's Palace it's clear from the get-go that he's put significant thought into this.  The fact that it doesn't go off without a hitch hints at his lingering inexperience, but the plan succeeds where shooting up the joint starting at the front door wouldn't have gotten far at all.  I can understand not liking it (especially if you watch the 'remastered' versions with the awful singing :ick:), but calling it bad is simply wrong.

Perhaps it is and I'm being unfairly harsh! It just didn't age well in my experiences. Luke doesn't just seem inexperienced, he seems smug and condescending, and Han gets it right when he laughs at the idea of him being a Jedi warrior. What I mean by "not smart" I mean by saying that an important chunck of the rebel alliance leadership, or at least important elements within it, are thrown away in order to rescue a smart ass smuggler. First the droids, then rebel leader Leia herself, then Luke himself... I guess love is more important than fighting the empire...

But yes, I'm being harsh and it works as introductory material. Hey, 100 times this than the whole introduction of episode III which is just terrible.

Quote
If you just pretend that they're Wookies instead, the whole thing is much better.

Well yes, if I pretend it's a different movie, especially a better one, then it is a much better movie!

Quote
The cinematography to shoot the speeder bike chase was imaginative and the scenery itself is used in typical Star Wars fashion - that is to say, the environment is not neglected as backdrop and is instead a thing for the characters to interact with, coming with its own struggles and conflict.  Go watch one of the Indiana Jones movies, for an example that's still closely related, and the desert in Raiders of the Lost Ark is important only because it's Egypt and therefore must be desert.  The jungle temple in the intro is in a jungle only because hidden temples are found in the jungle.  Tatooine is a barren wasteland, and A New Hope is able to convey the sense that there is nothing there except endless desert and harsh terrain (and none of that "I hate sand" obvious commentary).  Hoth is a show of the total desperation the Alliance faces and in the early movie even emerges as an antagonist in its own right.  Dagobah is a twisted, gnarled swamp that Luke must conquer in order to overcome his own twisted, gnarled impulses toward rage and hate and despair.  Bespin is an impossible utopia, both in the sense that cities obviously can't float in the air, and that the utopia is a thin veneer over a bed of harsh industry and betrayal.  Endor becomes an antagonist like Hoth with the speeder bike chase, and also demonstrates without the anvil dropping flavor of something like The Day After Tomorrow that nature fights back against human disruption and machinery.

QFT. I agree with all that!

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
I do want to point out that Jabba's palace contains one of my favorite back-and-forth exchanges of the whole franchise, between Luke and Han:

"Together again, huh?"
"Wouldn't miss it!"
"How are we doing?"
"The same as always."
"That bad, huh?"

 

Offline Patriot

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
Hey, 100 times this than the whole introduction of episode III which is just terrible.

Which part of that intro was terrible? Cause the battle itself was pretty freakin awesome if you ask me.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
It looked pretty.  And...?  In this day and age looking pretty is mandatory, not impressive.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
Hey, 100 times this than the whole introduction of episode III which is just terrible.

Which part of that intro was terrible? Cause the battle itself was pretty freakin awesome if you ask me.

No it wasn't, it was just piles and piles and piles of garbage thrown at the screen to impress you. The whole story of the intro is also amazingly silly and full of contrivances. There's no tension whatsoever, even. Jabba's intro was at least tense and filled with possible bad outcomes.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
Yeah I agree with Luis, ROTS space battle really epitomizes a general trend I see in a lot of modern cinema space battles.  Instead of really putting together an engaging sequence its just an excuse to pile in as much CGI crap on the screen as possible.

ANH's space battle by contrast was a very limited affair in terms of assets on screen, but it maintained coherence and tension throughout.  You knew what was going on, you had at least some introduction to most of the characters and their was enough time spent to let the whole thing breathe.  The battle was treated as an important part of the story and a major set piece.  ROTS was a soulless empty headed visual on the way to more talking and walking sequences. 
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
I know defending the new trilogy (or should we call it the middle trilogy from now on?) from criticism is a battle lost at the very beginning, but...

A) All is fine and dandy until those buzzdroids start dismantling the Jedi starfighters piloted by Obi-Wan and Anakin. Think about it. You're a Jedi. The Force flows through your whatevers. So when hostile little droids land on your ship and start dismantling it panel by panel, how the **** do you manage to try every trick in the book to try and shake the buggers off except for using the Force to pluck or push them off?

That's not a characteristic of Revenge of the Sith, as many times in Star Wars characters who could control the Force apparently had some sort of temporary amnesia. The Force didn't warn Darth Vader about Solo's dive attack on him and the other two TIE fighters. The Force didn't warn Luke when he was about to crash land in Dagobah. The Force didn't help Luke during the battle of Hoth, either. There are many examples like these in the old trilogy...

B) There's this moderately large space battle going on over Coruscant - perhaps the most important planet of the entire galaxy - with ships blowing up all over the place. The sides seem fairly evenly matched in terms of ships and firepower. So where'd the battle go once Obi-Wan and Anakin crash-land the ship Palpatine was on? If both sides retreated, why? Did they just keep on slugging it out beyond the cameras? WHAT HAPPENED??!?

I thought it was pretty clear from the beginning that the battle over Coruscant was nothing but a diversion to make Palpatine's kidnapping possible. I guess that once the Jedi knights rescued the chancellor and killed Dooku, there was no reason for the bulk of the Separatist fleet to stay where the Republic could assault it en masse.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
Yes there was a lot of assumptions, and suddenly the whole battle disappeared from sight and memory. Didn't matter anymore, what mattered was that Anakin was able to land a pre Star Destroyer into Coruscant without destroying too many towers and killing too many unseen people. Then empty CGI hallways followed with smug Jedis walking through...god I hate that movie.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
I know defending the new trilogy (or should we call it the middle trilogy from now on?) from criticism is a battle lost at the very beginning, but...

A) All is fine and dandy until those buzzdroids start dismantling the Jedi starfighters piloted by Obi-Wan and Anakin. Think about it. You're a Jedi. The Force flows through your whatevers. So when hostile little droids land on your ship and start dismantling it panel by panel, how the **** do you manage to try every trick in the book to try and shake the buggers off except for using the Force to pluck or push them off?

That's not a characteristic of Revenge of the Sith, as many times in Star Wars characters who could control the Force apparently had some sort of temporary amnesia. The Force didn't warn Darth Vader about Solo's dive attack on him and the other two TIE fighters. The Force didn't warn Luke when he was about to crash land in Dagobah. The Force didn't help Luke during the battle of Hoth, either. There are many examples like these in the old trilogy...

B) There's this moderately large space battle going on over Coruscant - perhaps the most important planet of the entire galaxy - with ships blowing up all over the place. The sides seem fairly evenly matched in terms of ships and firepower. So where'd the battle go once Obi-Wan and Anakin crash-land the ship Palpatine was on? If both sides retreated, why? Did they just keep on slugging it out beyond the cameras? WHAT HAPPENED??!?

I thought it was pretty clear from the beginning that the battle over Coruscant was nothing but a diversion to make Palpatine's kidnapping possible. I guess that once the Jedi knights rescued the chancellor and killed Dooku, there was no reason for the bulk of the Separatist fleet to stay where the Republic could assault it en masse.

You're making a significant and wrong equivalence here.  There is a substantial difference between not sensing through the Force an imminent threat, and resorting to literally scraping a collection of angry droids off Obi-wan's fighter with a series of only nominally controlled collisions when simply giving the buggers a rough shove with the Force would have solved the whole problem.  One is pretty believable, the other is a plot contrivance to drive up dramatic tension by forcing (hah) the main characters to forget literally the object of their life's dedication for a few minutes.

Additionally, the fact that there was no reason for the fleet to remain should have been suspicious in and of itself, and we don't get a single hint of it one way or the other.  For all intents and purposes, once the cruiser hits atmosphere, everyone just sorta leaves off-camera.  The battle is never mentioned again.  This is despite the fact that the entire reason it hits atmosphere in the first place is that its being shot to pieces by a Republic cruiser.  All of it is just dropped and never spoken of again.  That's just bad writing.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
I seem to remember someone describing how the battle with General Grevious is similarly flawed cause it should have gone like this.

*Grevious talks*
*Grevious pulls out lightsabres*
*Obi-wan force pushes Grevious off the platform to his death*
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
What Would Indy Do?

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
That's not a characteristic of Revenge of the Sith, as many times in Star Wars characters who could control the Force apparently had some sort of temporary amnesia. The Force didn't warn Darth Vader about Solo's dive attack on him and the other two TIE fighters. The Force didn't warn Luke when he was about to crash land in Dagobah. The Force didn't help Luke during the battle of Hoth, either. There are many examples like these in the old trilogy...

The only valid one of those is Vader missing Solo's dive attack, although one could make a case that Vader was focusing all his concentration on his own target.

When Luke crashed on Dagobah, he was at best a novice at using the Force. Ditto for Hoth.
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
To be honest, everytime I watch the prequels, I can hear Mel Brooks voice in the background shouting 'Moichendizing! Moichendizing!!!'

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
The prequels did well over 2 billion dollars in theatrical gross, but that's chump change compared to what I would pay to unsee them.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
Every single dollar The Phantom Menace made was in the expectation that it would be as good as the original trilogy.

Every single dollar The Clone Wars made was in the hope that after all the negative feedback about Ep. I, they must have done a better job on Ep. II.

Every single dollar Revenge of the Sith made was from fan resignation, wanting to get the horror over with already.
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
That's not a characteristic of Revenge of the Sith, as many times in Star Wars characters who could control the Force apparently had some sort of temporary amnesia. The Force didn't warn Darth Vader about Solo's dive attack on him and the other two TIE fighters. The Force didn't warn Luke when he was about to crash land in Dagobah. The Force didn't help Luke during the battle of Hoth, either. There are many examples like these in the old trilogy...

The only valid one of those is Vader missing Solo's dive attack, although one could make a case that Vader was focusing all his concentration on his own target.

When Luke crashed on Dagobah, he was at best a novice at using the Force. Ditto for Hoth.

That and he didn't take a hit from the Falcon, the TIE pilot on the right had a flipping panic attack and side swiped him.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
Well, since a powerful Dark-Side user can have negative impacts on Jedi skills just by his presence, maybe the opposite is also true, also, considering Obi-Wan was 'with' Luke at that stage of the battle, maybe it required all of Vaders concentration to focus on his X-Wing, as he said, 'The Force is strong with this one....'

As for the crashes, I think that if you look at how Yoda trained Luke, it was as much about getting him to have faith in his abilities as using them, possibly, with things going so badly with the Rebellion at that stage, Luke was having doubts, which reflected themselves as failings.

Of course, it could also have been because it was in the script, never underestimate the Power of the Script ;)

 

Offline Ulala

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII - Title revealed!
I have a number of problems with Episode III, but here are two of the biggest that I haven't seen mentioned yet:


I just don't see how a 20+ minute lightsaber fight (Ani and Obi) can be considered anything but tiring and boring.

Padme dying because "she has nothing to live for" (at least accoridng to the medical droid) when she just gave birth to twins.


IMHO, Episode III is a bad movie and it's a really bad Star Wars movie.
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