Author Topic: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)  (Read 3970 times)

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Online Colonol Dekker

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Salvaging is win.

I really adored cataclysms stark dystopic terrificly ominous music.

 

Offline An4ximandros

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Honestly, what's really irritating me here is that the Bentusi are supposed to be *beyond* the Hiigarans. Catacylsm just goes "hurr skin disease nanites woo" and turns them into a bunch of cowardly old wankers who are so self-serving it's cartoonishly evil. Moreso, the Bentusi Tradeship, which is implied to have wiped out an entire imperial fleet, is taken down by a pissant strikecraft swarm and a red snot-covered heavy cruiser (no, i will not stop mocking the beast for it's stupid "spaceship skin disease shtick"). To add to this, when you fight them, their weapons are such a far cry from HW1 that Somtaaw's ****ty converted fleet can survive for ****ing ages.

The beast is literally subverting every piece of everything, cannibalizing it into more of itself. Would you like to live out your days connected to an ICU as you watch every single part of your flesh, your bioship, turn on you?

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
OTOH the clunkiness is more than compensated for by the accidental brilliance of salvaging.

Yeah, that aspect of Home world was utterly amazing, and the changes made to it in HW2 were a net negative for the game by far.
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Neither Cataclysm or HW2 allowed you to salvage beyond your supply limit.  It's quite irritating.  Especially in Cataclysm, because salvaging is the only way to get ships that don't look like ****.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Except with the Bentusi, it's always been implied that it's one Bentusi per ship? And what does that say? If it takes so long for drive plasma, or hell, just plasma, to be vented, then why do the Bentusi even bother integrating themselves if it offers no advantages of a large crew or replaces a ship crew?

You've managed to completely screw up the argument by adding bits that were never said.

The Bentusi have managed to create a system in which one person can operate an interstellar starship. This is a significant achievement and far beyond Hiigaraan practice in most respects; even the motherships did not go that far. It is supplemented by automated strikecraft.

However, all systems have tradeoffs. A Bentusi ship is, for example, armed with only a single offensive and defensive weapon, a triple ion cannon on a semiflexible mount. This makes a great deal of sense, considering it has literally only one person aboard; it cannot engage multiple targets as easily and flexibly as a system which incorporates multiple people.

Similarly, the Naar Directive requires the completion of several complex tasks at once, involving identifying a strike location, rerouting drive plasma, and sealing the effected area off, any one of which could fully occupy a single mind. It is also something that very few rational people would ever consider necessary to design a system to actually do. (How often exactly do you want to have the ability to incinerate your own crew? How many accidents do you think it would cause?) The Bentusi system is extremely, incredibly advanced, but it is being faced with a problem it is almost certainly not designed to handle and for which the easiest solution, the use of further people to ease the workload, is not available to the system they have designed.

The Bentusi are not cowards or fools. They have simply been confronted with a problem for which they are not prepared, and the answers to which work against their previous design choices. Fixing the issue will take time, time they (and everyone else) do not appear to have when they make the decision to flee.

More so, the "their ability to carry out the Naar Directive may well be related to their hybrid design and simply not something Bentusi ships are capable of doing." is a load of bull****, considering that a lot of ships can't be infected by the Beast.

I point you to the fact that literally to the end of the game Taiidani ships are vulnerable at all sizes; so are regular kushan navy ships unless they're being controlled by the player.
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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
I point you to the fact that literally to the end of the game Taiidani ships are vulnerable at all sizes; so are regular kushan navy ships unless they're being controlled by the player.
Well, there is quite a few ships that don't have an infected version of themselves, making them un-infectable from a gameplay perspective. From memory, these are all kushan + taidan frigates & destroyers, as well as a good chunk of their fighters and corvettes + the Turanic standard corvette. On the other hand, Ion Array Frigates and Taidan Heavy Cruisers can be infected just fine.

If I recall correctly, we do see infected Kushan frigates in animatics, so yeah, I agree that pretty much every ship is supposed to be infectable in-story, even if Somtaw destroyers & above are able to withstand it, which in my opinion is more of a gameplay necessity being handwaved through fluff.

 

Offline BritishShivans

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
what the **** happened

i disappear for a day or so and this happens

what have you DONE

also the naar directive is still bull**** thanks because kushan (not Somtaaw) ships are literally uninfectable

and beyond that one unused infected ion cannon frigate there's nothing that again says that non-somtaaw ships can't just use the naar directive

tell me where somtaaw ships are the only ships that can set fire to themselves, ngtm 1r

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
I point you to the fact that literally to the end of the game Taiidani ships are vulnerable at all sizes; so are regular kushan navy ships unless they're being controlled by the player.
If I recall correctly, we do see infected Kushan frigates in animatics, so yeah, I agree that pretty much every ship is supposed to be infectable in-story, even if Somtaw destroyers & above are able to withstand it, which in my opinion is more of a gameplay necessity being handwaved through fluff.
Except the handwave doesn't work, because there's absolutely no reason Taiidan and Kushan ships wouldn't be able to do it.  It's not like Kiith Somtaaw ships were designed that way.  The Naar Directive is an improvised solution which was adopted after the ships using it were built.

Similarly, the Naar Directive requires the completion of several complex tasks at once, involving identifying a strike location, rerouting drive plasma, and sealing the effected area off, any one of which could fully occupy a single mind. It is also something that very few rational people would ever consider necessary to design a system to actually do. (How often exactly do you want to have the ability to incinerate your own crew? How many accidents do you think it would cause?) The Bentusi system is extremely, incredibly advanced, but it is being faced with a problem it is almost certainly not designed to handle and for which the easiest solution, the use of further people to ease the workload, is not available to the system they have designed.
Again, Somtaaw ships were not designed to incinerate themselves.  The Naar Directive was first used on a ship as an improvised measure.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 01:12:41 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Again, Somtaaw ships were not designed to incinerate themselves.

You're saying that like it's true.

It's clearly not.

Yes, it's improvised, but you can't improvise this from nothing. At minimum you actually need drive plasma and the ducting to get it where you want to go as well as the ability to seal the ship into sections so it doesn't spread further than that. Considering we're talking about fusion reaction plasma here from your fusion torch rocket, that's some pretty serious ducting and sealing you're going to have to do. The Naar didn't have to install this stuff; it was already there.

An argument can be made they somehow initiated a controlled breach of existing ducting for their maneuvering thrusters, and in a "lose the ship or do this" situation the kind of damage that might do could be justified. But doing that successfully for this purpose is a really low order of probability. The Naar survived without having laid waste to half the ship like they probably should have in that situation, assuming there was even a duct to breach where they needed one to be.
 
And of course everyone's conveniently ignored the Bentusi might not even have the plasma since they are observed in both Homeworld and Cataclysm to be scooting along reactionlessly.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 07:13:18 pm by NGTM-1R »
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
It's true in that Somtaaw ships were not specifically designed to be able to effect the Naar Directive (given that it wasn't a thing when the Deacon was originally built), and there's absolutely nothing to indicate that Somtaaw ships are different enough from the norm that they would be able to flood their hull with drive plasma while other ships couldn't.  Except to emphasize how ~special~ the Somtaaw are.

I don't care about the Bentusi, because Cata's Bentusi have nothing in common with HW1's Bentusi except for the tradeship design.  It's a big enough disconnect that I'm perfectly happy ignoring them entirely.  I'm talking about Kiith Mary Sue Somtaaw's special snowflake status.

They have all this advanced experimental tech like leeches, sentinel shields, repulsors, the best fighter, multi-beam frigates, super drones, and missile batteries on their refitted cargo ship/destroyer (on top of standard destroyer guns).  All the while the military kiith have barely advanced from HW1.  Clearly, Kiith Somtaaw is a bunch of savants who have decided to take up mining because they're bored.

"They're the only ones who take the threat seriously" will only go so far before it stretches suspension of disbelief to the breaking point.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 01:21:32 am by Aesaar »

 
Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Except the handwave doesn't work, because there's absolutely no reason Taiidan and Kushan ships wouldn't be able to do it.  It's not like Kiith Somtaaw ships were designed that way.  The Naar Directive is an improvised solution which was adopted after the ships using it were built.

To clarify my point of view: I don't think the Naar directive is a Somtaaw-specific thing. The way I understood it (granted, I have not re-read the manual in years), any sufficiently big ship should be able to do it, which is why I was quite surprised when I saw my shiny new Heavy Cruiser get infected. To me, the reason of the Naar directive for existing is two fold:

First, it's a balance imperative: you can't have the player lose things like the command ship, carriers, dreadnaughts or destroyers get taken out and turned against you because of a stray cruise missile or an unavoidable beam. It would basically mean that your big ships could get one-shot while the enemy get a free Capital Ship (which I personally think would be quite an awesome challenge :P , though I'd keep the Command Ship immune).

Second, it's a technical imperative: every ship that can get infected needs to have an infected version of himself, with its own texture work and, I suspect (I might be wrong, so don't quote me on that particular point), its own "I'm getting infected" animation (I think Taiidan carriers can't get infected despite having an infected model). Which is why pretty much every Somtaaw frigate-class and below can be infected while frigates of other factions can't, whith the exception of Ion Array Frigates and Heavy Cruisers that we see get infected on-screen in mission 4 and, in the case of Heavy Cruisers, in the last mission.

 

Online Colonol Dekker

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
I assumed the naar to simply pop the oven (fusion core) door open so to say, and seal bulkheads/force open where needed. No ducting involved.

what have you DONE

I see what you did there.


For the heck of it. ..




The above was what inspired Naar or not?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 03:46:18 am by Colonol Dekker »

 
Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Aesaar, BritishShivans, you're both capable of having discussions with more sophistication than this petty nitpicking. This is the kind of technical obsessiveness you'd expect from Salty on the BP boards, not you guys.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline AtomicClucker

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Well, to my simplistic understanding, Relic pretty much wrote-off Cataclysm because it apparently went against the flavor of the classic Homeworld. Though I do admit quite a bit of love towards teh failz Taiidan Republic.

Overall, while Catacylsm had a nice score, lots of improvements to game mechanics and pretty sweet missions, the story was... welp, generic body horror sci-fi tropes that left me feeling there was a much better idea that had been beaten into luke warm plot buster for a B rated movie. And the Bentusi being cowards? hate to say it, but I thought that completely went against the original spirit of Homeworld as well, because we were left with a mysterious and enigmatic trader race. Attempting to flesh out the Bentusi in such a manner felt not only out of place and time, but convoluted as well.

Some of the back story regarding Hiigaran-post Taiidan Empire relations was pretty cool to explore, throwing in the Beast? Welp, kinda threw out a greater idea ripe for exploitation.
Blame Blue Planet for my Freespace2 addiction.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Aesaar, BritishShivans, you're both capable of having discussions with more sophistication than this petty nitpicking. This is the kind of technical obsessiveness you'd expect from Salty on the BP boards, not you guys.
It's really hard to have a sophisticated discussion about Cataclysm because there's barely anything sophisticated about it once you finish reading the manual's fluff.  It's a game about how Mary Sue saves the galaxy from the strawberry jam Borg.

I mean, HW2's story is pretty dumb too, but it at least has the HW atmosphere and makes a few interesting contributions to the universe (the religious side of HW2's story is easily its strongest element).  Cataclysm's manual does that, but the game itself does not.

HW2 also has great-looking ships, whereas 90% of Cata's original ones look terrible.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 05:23:27 pm by Aesaar »

 

Online Colonol Dekker

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
Cata ships are indeed FUGLY.

HW2 strikecraft. .... SEXY.


 

Offline Flipside

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Re: The Bentusi are cowards (split from What Is Your Most Favourite Misson/Level From Any Game)
To be honest, I'm not sure aesthetics really apply, since opinion is subjective, I was never a big fan of the original Taidani Cruiser, but equally, the Somtaaw Carrier is a low-poly abomination compared to the sleek lines of the Hiigaran one.

So I suppose the argument here is not really whether Cataclysm is a good game, but whether it is a good Homeworld game...

To which my response is; since HW2 completely ignored the existence of Cataclysm anyway, does it matter?