Author Topic: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)  (Read 26142 times)

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Offline Flipside

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
I'm not saying we should ban it, though, never have. My position throughout this is that if people are given a responsibility like Freedom of Speech then they should respect that right for what it is, something that puts faith in their own ability to use it in a positive manner.

The whole reason that people choose to shower the entire Islamic culture with insulting symbolism has been given as 'making them get used to it'. Cultural Abuse, that world famous peacemaker and social anesthetic...

It's not the existence of the cartoons that is the problem, it's the huge ball of pretense that this is a 'positive' thing to do with regards to dealing with extremism that has formed around them.

If people want to do it, by all means, go ahead, but please don't tell me you're doing it for the sake of making the world a better place.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 08:26:42 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
Mongoose, you said it yourself, those people are arseholes. No one is talking about how you should self-censor to avoid a comment that gets taken out of context and becomes offensive. What I'm saying is that you've got to think hard when you decide to go out of your way to be offensive. People forget what the comics originally were about, assuming that they were accidental. Here's Noam Chomsky on the issue.

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One of the main newspapers, Information, I think, published on 15 February a background of what had happened. They reported that the Minister of Culture in Denmark gave a speech at a conservative conference, where they quoted some abusive, vicious, racist speech attacking the Muslim minority for not being truly Danes, and not conforming to Danish culture, and virtually called for an attack on the Muslim minority, which I think is seven per cent. And a couple of days later Jyllandsposten printed the cartoons. They regarded it as a consequence; they said, yes, it was a consequence of the Minister of Culture’s decision to wage an ideological war on the Muslim minority. It was no issue of freedom of press; it was no issue of freedom of expression. This is just ordinary racism under cover of freedom of expression. And, yes, they should have the right to. The New York Times should have the right to publish anti-Semitic Nazi caricatures on the front page. That should be a legal right. Are they going to exercise their right? No. So if you do it is another reason. In fact Jyllandsposten, as you probably know, a couple of years earlier had turned down cartoons caricaturing Jesus, on the grounds that it would create a public uproar.


The decision of Charlie Hebdo to reprint the comics is more nuanced, by that time there was an issue of free speech. But lets look at the original publishing. Was it a good idea? Did it make the world a better place? Or was it a deliberate attempt to have a go at a minority living in the country it was published in? Bear in mind that the issue was largely ignored by the Muslim world outside of official protests for 3-4 months. It was only when a group of Danish Imams took a trip to the Middle East that one of them has later claimed was completely wrong. So if that trip hadn't happened, would the same people defending the decision to publish still defend it? Or would they take it for what it was, a nasty, racist, attack on immigrants.

What about Chomsky's point about anti-semetic Nazi cartoons? Cause self-censorship around the Holocaust is rife. Should we publish that sort of thing so that people stop being offended about the Holocaust all the time? Does anyone here think that publishing such cartoons couldn't end in violent protests in Israel? Especially if they were done by a Muslim country (i.e a country which is seen as disliking them already).




In the end, people like to make blanket statements like "Self-censorship is bad". Like that draws a line in the sand and they'll never do it again. It's nonsense, we do it all the time. How do I know? Well, we don't all live alone with no friends. Humans self-censor all the ****ing time. It's an attribute of our tribal origins that make us think "Better not say that in this room cause I might offend people I know" but fail to care about anyone outside our monkeysphere. If you wouldn't walk up to a devout Muslim friend of yours and draw Muhammed in front of him even though you knew would upset him then don't kid yourself about this being about freedom of expression. It's not. It's about the layers between you and random Muslims on the net giving you the freedom to be an arsehole of the sort you wouldn't be in person.

And if you would do that....well congratulations on being an arsehole I guess. At least I can respect your convictions. Doesn't make you someone I'd want to be friends with though, I've seen how you treat your friends.
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Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
Is this guy an asshole? Taking shots at Genesis like that?
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
Do you think that Mark Twain wrote that just so he could feel good about himself? Sometimes there are reasons to be offensive. Sometimes it is important to be offensive.

I'm saying that Draw Muhammed Day is not one of those times. It's not art. It's not trying to make a contribution to society. As I keep pointing out it's a Facebook Like. It's entitling you to feel you have done something worthy to end a serious world issue when in fact you have done nothing at all.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 09:43:34 pm by karajorma »
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
that's you opinion and you are entitled to it.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
As is your opinion on the worthiness of Draw Muhammed Day. Doesn't mean that either of us can't persuade the other that they are in the wrong.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
It should also be noted that there is a marked difference of social and phsychological impact between having your culture insulted by a member of said culture, and having it insulted by a separate culture. Mark Twain and Voltaire focused most of their attention on attacking perceived faults in their own culture, not other peoples.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
Late to the party.

When a sufficiently large group wants to kill people because of something they said, wrote, or drew, the thing they said/wrote/drew needs to be made and distributed.  No concept, idea, belief, etc should be inviolate. Ever.

My position throughout this is that if people are given a responsibility like Freedom of Speech then they should respect that right for what it is, something that puts faith in their own ability to use it in a positive manner.

Sorry Flipside, but that's not free speech.  Freedom of speech doesn't come with caveats, provisos, or requirements. It simply is.  I'd like freedom of speech to be used positively, but that's exactly why it's important that it isn't always used positively.

Were the cartoons in Charlie Hebdo offensive? Umm, yes.  Did they really contribute anything constructive to discussion? Likely not.  Is it unbelievably important that things like that exist and be spread? Absolutely.  Those are the things that ensure freedom.  It's not a very free ****ing society if nobody is ever offended.  Productivity, value, etc are irrelevant - the point is, these things are the litmus test of freedom. It doesn't matter whether anyone thinks publishing the cartoons was good/bad/awful - what matters is that they have the legal right to do so and they should be able to do so without fear of being murdered on the spot by a a few oversensitive wackjobs who managed to get ahold of weapons.  In that sense, today, anyone who stands up for free speech and liberty generally should be supportive of the past and continued publication of this [IMHO] offensive and tasteless material precisely BECAUSE people were murdered because of it.

Also - there are 1.6 billion or so Muslims on Earth. Only a small minority of them believe the Quaranic prohibition on idolatry extends to drawings. Stop infantilizing an entire religion over the hangups of a small proportion of its members that are fundamentalists.

Because this nonsense infuriates me so much, I'm going to shamelessly quote myself from Twitter last night:

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People killed in 2015 by cartoon drawings: 0
People killed in 2015 because they drew cartoons: 12+

#freespeech #CharlieHebdo #ParisShooting

Quote
And if you say "but also acknowledge the cartoons were bad/wrong/etc" in the next breath, I have three words:

So ****ing what?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 11:34:46 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
Did you know: if you quote someone on a page without refreshing it, the quote will take into account any edits made since the page was opened, but will not update to reflect those on the actual post displayed?  It's very confusing.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
Did you know: if you quote someone on a page without refreshing it, the quote will take into account any edits made since the page was opened, but will not update to reflect those on the actual post displayed?  It's very confusing.

No, and sorry, I have a bad habit of adding additional material after the initial post is made ;)
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
You know what, forget it, troll away, I'm sure it will make things so much better. Simply asking humanity to try and make the effort to show a better part of themselves in the face of adversity is obviously far more than we can achieve, guess I should have learned that by now.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
Did you know: if you quote someone on a page without refreshing it, the quote will take into account any edits made since the page was opened, but will not update to reflect those on the actual post displayed?  It's very confusing.

I discovered that in this thread too :)
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
You know what, forget it, troll away, I'm sure it will make things so much better. Simply asking humanity to try and make the effort to show a better part of themselves in the face of adversity is obviously far more than we can achieve, guess I should have learned that by now.

While your goal is laudable, the point here is that someone, somewhere, is always going to find the most innocent statement problematic. It's a guarantee.  So while we can strive for politeness and constructive discussion - which I fully agree with - it should not be an expectation or subtle condition of speech and thought.  The moment it is is when you see codified restrictions on speech.

Satire - even outrageous, offensive, trashy satire - serves a very important role in the criticism of politics, religion, and human civilization.  Something that's missing from this discussion is how many Muslims across the Middle East regularly use satire to make these points themselves.  There is a massive campaign against ISIS being conducted by Muslims in Muslim countries right this moment which is being waged entirely through satire, mockery, and ridicule.

The fact that 12 people were murdered over what is frankly bad satire simply proves how important it is that bad satire be free to exist unfettered by niceties. Under no circumstances should drawing and writing be met with bullets, and on the day we as a species can unanimously reach that conclusion then I *might* agree with your earlier sentiment.  Until then, I do not support an expectation of self-censorship to avoiding offending certain people.  It should be up to the individual to determine what they will or will not say, with no external influence of fear or threat.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 12:17:54 am by MP-Ryan »
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
Because I can already feel the straw men burning, please note that MP-Ryan's declaration there at the end fully allows for the inclusion of internal influence.  He is not saying that we must all be assholes at all times, or that no thought should go into speech.  If anyone tries to claim otherwise it will be a warning and a day off.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
Yes it should be up to the individual to determine what they will or will not say. And people like Flipside and myself have every right to say perhaps you should try to change your mind about what you decide to say before you say it. No one on this thread is talking about forcing people to not publish pictures of Muhammed. Ironically though I have seen posts saying that those who don't want to do that should be shamed or don't support free speech.

In that sense, today, anyone who stands up for free speech and liberty generally should be supportive of the past and continued publication of this [IMHO] offensive and tasteless material precisely BECAUSE people were murdered because of it.

So a simple question. Would you republish anti-Semitic literature because someone got killed by a Jew for publishing it?


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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
People mock Judaism all the time.  It's really common.

Hell, just look at Borat for an incredibly blatant example.  And that movie was actually pretty well received.  Yeah, it's anti-Semitic as hell.  It's also obviously a joke, and should be taken as such.  Those who get offended by media like that don't need to watch/read it.

Why should Islam be exempt from this kind of mockery?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 03:08:53 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
Karajorma's question fails to address why there haven't been any murders of any cartoons or any satirical writer against judaism, despite there being reasons for perhaps a hundred times more grievances than any islamists could ever grab on to. (That's why islamism is usually riddled with holocaust denial, they cannot bear the thought of not being the most oppressed group in the world)

I'm sorry, but uncomfortable truths are what they are. The moment I knew that satirical cartoonists were massacred I instantly knew the culprit's religion. This is a problem, and we better step up from the boorish "Yes it was an atrocity BUT..." attitude that is pervading and degenerating our dignity, and despite anything that Karajorma or Flipside might say, it actually betrays an overconfidence and burgeois entitled paternalistic attitude regarding not only the satirists themselves, but even more ironically, the muslims themselves.

Liberal Muslims are out there publicly fighting the real fight against these attacks on Freedom of Speech. They realise what is at stake here. The thought that this fight is better fought by doing nothing is ridiculous and would never cross their minds. Help them. Fight alongside them.

Drop all this bull**** attitude of "Well that's not really in good taste". That's not remotely ****ing helpful. That's NOT what is at stake here. You're insinuating victim blaming atttitudes, and that is profoundly surprising to me coming from whom it comes from.

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
Nothing is at stake here.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
While your goal is laudable, the point here is that someone, somewhere, is always going to find the most innocent statement problematic. It's a guarantee.  So while we can strive for politeness and constructive discussion - which I fully agree with - it should not be an expectation or subtle condition of speech and thought.  The moment it is is when you see codified restrictions on speech.

I'm sorry for the double post, but I have to quote this again and reiterate it because I deeply believe some people in here do not understand the enemy in question. These are not reasonable people. We are a constant insult to them and their way of life. The way we "let" "our" women behave, have property rights, dress, talk as if they are our equals, the way we let homossexuals be free to do what they enjoy doing in their own privacy, the whole western culture as being "depraved", "materalistic" and so on and so forth. They hate our ****ing guts. These are not people you will EVER not insult.

If you drop the skirmish over the cartoons, if you surrender the Draw Mohammed field to them, they will pick on ever further terrains of our liberties. They will kill and murder people actually trying to do good in the world, not just cartoonists. Why? Because probably their vaccines are un holy and so perhaps polio vaccination teams would be targeted by jihadists.

I don't get some of the reaction here. I simply don't. I mean here we are, in a battlefield that couldn't be remotely less bloddy and dangerous like drawing ****ing cartoons. It's the exact BEST field of engagement against radicalism and extremism that could ever be! It's like paradise in contrast against "wars on terror" and other hugely failed costly and murdering policies that have ever been fostered.

Nothing is at stake here.

And this is where brain power goes to die.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Terrorist attack in Paris (11 people dead)
This article NAILS IT, just read it whole:

https://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/je-suis-charlie-its-a-bit-late/

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The irony is that those who most suffer from a culture of censorship are minority communities themselves. Any kind of social change or social progress necessarily means offending some deeply held sensibilities. ‘You can’t say that!’ is all too often the response of those in power to having their power challenged.  To accept that certain things cannot be said is to accept that certain forms of power cannot be challenged. The right to ‘subject each others’ fundamental beliefs to criticism’ is the bedrock of an open, diverse society. Once we give up such a right in the name of ‘tolerance’ or ‘respect’, we constrain our ability to confront those in power, and therefore to challenge injustice.

Yet, hardly had news begun filtering out about the Charlie Hebdo shootings, than there were those suggesting that the magazine was a ‘racist institution’ and that the cartoonists, if not deserving what they got, had nevertheless brought it on themselves through their incessant attacks on Islam. What is really racist is the idea only nice white liberals want to challenge religion or demolish its pretensions or can handle satire and ridicule. Those who claim that it is ‘racist’ or ‘Islamophobic’ to mock the Prophet Mohammad, appear to imagine, with the racists, that all Muslims are reactionaries. It is here that leftwing ‘anti-racism’ joins hands with rightwing anti-Muslim bigotry.

What is called ‘offence to a community’ is more often than not actually a struggle within communities. There are hudreds of thousands, within Muslim communities in the West, and within Muslim-majority countries across the world, challenging religious-based reactionary ideas and policies and institutions; writers, cartoonists, political activists, daily putting their lives on the line in facing down blasphemy laws, standing up for equal rights and fighting for democratic freedoms; people like Pakistani cartoonist Sabir Nazar, the Bangladeshi writer Taslima Nasreen, exiled to India after death threats, or the Iranian blogger Soheil Arabi, sentenced to death last year for ‘insulting the Prophet’. What happened in the Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris was viscerally shocking; but in the non-Western world, those who stand up for their rights face such threats every day.