Author Topic: Should my radar icons be so jaggy  (Read 2832 times)

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Offline BirdofPrey

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Should my radar icons be so jaggy
I figured I would fire up FSO a bit to dick around while I wait for the FS:P update Goober has been teasing.

I can't seem to remember the radar icons ever being particularly high res but should it really be THIS jaggey?  Is this what's in the MVPs or is something wrong on my end?


For reference, I am running the latest FSPort MVPs (and 3612) at 1920x1080 resolution.
Commandline
Code: [Select]
C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\fs2_open_3_6_16.exe -mod fsport-mediavps,fsport,mediavps_3612 -nomotiondebris
-missile_lighting -3dshockwave -post_process -fxaa -dualscanlines -targetinfo -orbradar -rearm_timer -3dwarp
-warp_flash -snd_preload -fullscreen_window -ambient_factor 0 -no_emissive_light -spec_exp 9 -spec_point 1.5
-spec_static 2 -spec_tube 1.8 -ogl_spec 50 -fov .039

I can generate a log, but am not sure it it will help.  Aside from this nitpick, it runs perfectly fine.
===
semi-OT: that radar's looking dated anyways, need to make it bigger, anti-alias the circles and lose the background.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 02:25:57 pm by BirdofPrey »
The Great War ended 30 years ago.
Our elders tell stories of a glorious civilization; of people with myths of humanity everlasting, who hurled themselves into the void of space with no fear.

In testing: Radar Icons

 

Offline deathspeed

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Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
I always assumed the jaggy look was an intentional immersion thing, to emphasize that I was seeing computer-generated icons in the radar display of a real spaceship.  Does that make sense?   In other words, everything on screen except the HUD is "real" - real ships, weapons, nebulae, stars, asteroids, etc.  The ship's triple-redundant 64-gigabit R995 Volta GTX 1337 Core i9x9 Unobtanium (Fatal1ty Edition) distributed GPGPU is busy assessing the ship's status and environmental situation and drawing the HUD, so in order to save a few cycles for more critical needs such as updating Alpha One's eHarmony I mean LinkedIn profile, it goes all Atari 8-bit on the radar icons.
Or something like that.
Maybe someday God will give you a little pink toaster of your own.

 
Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
I always assumed the jaggy look was an intentional immersion thing, to emphasize that I was seeing computer-generated icons in the radar display of a real spaceship.  Does that make sense?   In other words, everything on screen except the HUD is "real" - real ships, weapons, nebulae, stars, asteroids, etc.  The ship's triple-redundant 64-gigabit R995 Volta GTX 1337 Core i9x9 Unobtanium (Fatal1ty Edition) distributed GPGPU is busy assessing the ship's status and environmental situation and drawing the HUD, so in order to save a few cycles for more critical needs such as updating Alpha One's eHarmony I mean LinkedIn profile, it goes all Atari 8-bit on the radar icons.
Or something like that.

LOL

I started laughing the hardest when I came to "...Unobtanium (Fatal1ty Edition)"! Now I want to watch The Core!

Anyway, nicely done. hehe
Why do you say "as" instead of "because"?

 

Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
Best
response
EVAR
The Great War ended 30 years ago.
Our elders tell stories of a glorious civilization; of people with myths of humanity everlasting, who hurled themselves into the void of space with no fear.

In testing: Radar Icons

 

Offline niffiwan

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  • Eluder Class
Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
:)

For a semi-serious answer, it's probably the effects of upscaling the retail icons from built-for-640x480 (I don't believe the 1024x768 HUD artwork was actually used in retail FS2) to 1080p. I think some ships have had new icons generated which suit modern resolutions, but not all of them.
Creating a fs2_open.log | Red Alert Bug = Hex Edit | MediaVPs 2014: Bigger HUD gauges | 32bit libs for 64bit Ubuntu
----
Debian Packages (testing/unstable): Freespace2 | wxLauncher
----
m|m: I think I'm suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Bmpman is starting to make sense and it's actually written reasonably well...

 

Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
So we just don't have high resolution icons?
I could have swore the VPs had a RadarIcons folder in there somewhere.

If it's just an assets issue, maybe I could do something about it.  I'm not much help elsewhere, but icon's aren't too horribly complicated.  What format do the radar icons use?  Are they .ani like the rest of the hud interface?
The Great War ended 30 years ago.
Our elders tell stories of a glorious civilization; of people with myths of humanity everlasting, who hurled themselves into the void of space with no fear.

In testing: Radar Icons

 
Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
So we just don't have high resolution icons?
I could have swore the VPs had a RadarIcons folder in there somewhere.

If it's just an assets issue, maybe I could do something about it.  I'm not much help elsewhere, but icon's aren't too horribly complicated.  What format do the radar icons use?  Are they .ani like the rest of the hud interface?

Your memory isn't that far off: there's a file called MV_RadarIcons.vp.

I did some testing, and I discovered that the reason yours look that way is the radar icons are much bigger when using the 3D Radar. If you turn that off, then you will have much smaller icons. They will still be just as jaggy, but it will be difficult to see their jagginess.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 12:56:50 am by TwoCables »
Why do you say "as" instead of "because"?

 
Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
I am done editing my post. I apologize for that.
Why do you say "as" instead of "because"?

 

Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
I am on 1920x1080 60Hz at the moment.
My full command line is posted in the OP.  Just a couple flags for graphics options and custom lighting settings.

As for the icons being scaled, I have noticed some icons maybe be scaled a bit differently, if you look closely, there is an icon for a science cruiser (the Plato) overlapped with one of the hostile fighter icons, but it's fairly tiny by comparison.  I popped into FS2 with the 2014 MVPs for a check and saw much the same thing, huge fighter icons with smaller cargo and sentry icons (second mission I think).

At any rate even the small icons are a bit jaggy, and as I mentioned before, I'd appreciate the ability to have a larger orb radar which may mean larger icons as well.  I like my orb radar too much to drop it because of some horrible scaling.  As I mentioned, if there's a way for me to redo the icons themselves, I'll do it, and I'll even share.

Also I did find that RadarIcons.vp and opened it up. I am kind of confused by the format being used.  are the .dds file direct draw surface files?  Why are you using those?  I thought that was for textures or something.  Everything else in the interface uses the Interplay/Volition .ani format as far as I am aware.
Maybe I am missing something since I am not a code monkey
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 01:19:57 am by BirdofPrey »
The Great War ended 30 years ago.
Our elders tell stories of a glorious civilization; of people with myths of humanity everlasting, who hurled themselves into the void of space with no fear.

In testing: Radar Icons

 
Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
I am on 1920x1080 60Hz at the moment.
My full command line is posted in the OP.  Just a couple flags for graphics options and custom lighting settings.

As for the icons being scaled, I have noticed some icons maybe be scaled a bit differently, if you look closely, there is an icon for a science cruiser (the Plato) overlapped with one of the hostile fighter icons, but it's fairly tiny by comparison.  I popped into FS2 with the 2014 MVPs for a check and saw much the same thing, huge fighter icons with smaller cargo and sentry icons (second mission I think).

At any rate even the small icons are a bit jaggy, and as I mentioned before, I'd appreciate the ability to have a larger orb radar which may mean larger icons as well.  I like my orb radar too much to drop it because of some horrible scaling.  As I mentioned, if there's a way for me to redo the icons themselves, I'll do it, and I'll even share.

Also I did find that RadarIcons.vp and opened it up. I am kind of confused by the format being used.  are the .dds file direct draw surface files?  Why are you using those?  I thought that was for textures or something.  Everything else in the interface uses the Interplay/Volition .ani format as far as I am aware.
Maybe I am missing something since I am not a code monkey

Oh wait. The reason why some are so big is simple: they're closer to you than the other ships. So, what we REALLY need are high-res radar icons.
Why do you say "as" instead of "because"?

  

Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
I thought it might be scaling by range, but haven't been paying enough attention to be able to tell definitively.

I miss having the lines indicating range like we had when it was just radar dots on the orb radar.
The Great War ended 30 years ago.
Our elders tell stories of a glorious civilization; of people with myths of humanity everlasting, who hurled themselves into the void of space with no fear.

In testing: Radar Icons

 
Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
I thought it might be scaling by range, but haven't been paying enough attention to be able to tell definitively.

I miss having the lines indicating range like we had when it was just radar dots on the orb radar.

Yeah, it's definitely making the icons bigger or smaller depending on their range.

Anyway, I just remembered: to get the dots & lines back, rename "MV_RadarIcons.vp" to something else, or delete it or Cut & Paste it to a different folder. I think another option is to just use MediaVPs 2014 instead, and here's how:

1.  Open FreeSpace\fsport-mediavps\mod.ini
2.  Under "[multimod]", rename "mediavps_3612" to "MediaVPs_2014" (the name of the folder).

For me, MediaVPs 2014 doesn't have the special shapes for icons, just dots. So, the 3D Radar also just has the dots and lines.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 01:55:52 am by TwoCables »
Why do you say "as" instead of "because"?

 
Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
I see that you're back. I had to change something pretty critical. lol (MV_RadarIcons.vp...).
Why do you say "as" instead of "because"?

 

Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
Yeah, already know about all that.  I haven't gotten around to trying out FSPort with 2014, more or less waiting to see what's getting updated SOONTM
How well does FSPort run with MVP 2014?  Any problems or oddities?

I like my radar icons, I am just saying that I found the ranging lines useful.  Also I DO have the icons in MVP 2014.  Our installs must be different somehow.



P.S.
GAH NINJA
again
The Great War ended 30 years ago.
Our elders tell stories of a glorious civilization; of people with myths of humanity everlasting, who hurled themselves into the void of space with no fear.

In testing: Radar Icons

 
Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
Yeah, already know about all that.  I haven't gotten around to trying out FSPort with 2014, more or less waiting to see what's getting updated SOONTM
How well does FSPort run with MVP 2014?  Any problems or oddities?

I like my radar icons, I am just saying that I found the ranging lines useful.  Also I DO have the icons in MVP 2014.  Our installs must be different somehow.



P.S.
GAH NINJA
again

Then the only thing you can do is either rename MV_RadarIcons.vp, cut & paste it to a different folder, or delete it.

For me, it runs the same, only with the updated and improved graphics that MediaVPs 2014 has to offer. It's such an easy change that it takes a tiny fraction of the time that it takes to make a quick post on the internet.

I don't remember what I did to my MediaVPs 2014 install. I still have a MV_RadarIcons.vp file, but it's just dots - which is the way I prefer it.

I have to go catch a couple of Z's though. I'll be back later sometime.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 02:16:00 am by TwoCables »
Why do you say "as" instead of "because"?

 

Offline niffiwan

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Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
oh wow, I'd forgotten that retail only used dots rather than icons, sorry about the earlier misinformation  :nervous: 

Anyway, I had a look at the vp, as you suspected the .dds are direct draw show files and they're also used for textures. I guess whoever implemented the icons feature decided to use a more modern format instead of .ani, which is a bit of a pain to use/create. Anyway, the fighter (& bomber) icon resolution is a Colossal 8x8 pixels, no wonder it looks so jaggy ;)
Creating a fs2_open.log | Red Alert Bug = Hex Edit | MediaVPs 2014: Bigger HUD gauges | 32bit libs for 64bit Ubuntu
----
Debian Packages (testing/unstable): Freespace2 | wxLauncher
----
m|m: I think I'm suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Bmpman is starting to make sense and it's actually written reasonably well...

 

Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
8x8!?
I thought it would be at least 16x or 32x
What are the other icons sized at?

If that's the case I should definitely try my hand at making new ones,  Anything I should know first before I start poking things till they work?
The Great War ended 30 years ago.
Our elders tell stories of a glorious civilization; of people with myths of humanity everlasting, who hurled themselves into the void of space with no fear.

In testing: Radar Icons

 

Offline The E

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Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
Also I did find that RadarIcons.vp and opened it up. I am kind of confused by the format being used.  are the .dds file direct draw surface files?  Why are you using those?  I thought that was for textures or something.  Everything else in the interface uses the Interplay/Volition .ani format as far as I am aware.
Maybe I am missing something since I am not a code monkey

Before we implemented png support, DDS was the best format available to make new interface graphics, as it is easier to work with than .ani and allows the use of true transparency (instead of the fake colormasking that is used with anis).
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Should my radar icons be so jaggy
HOLY CRAP! 
I unpacked MV_RadarIcons and at those sizes I can barely make out the capital ships, but the fighter icon is damn near impossible to read, and the bomber icon is worse.  No wonder it looks like crap, it's trying to upscale by several hundred percent

Also I did find that RadarIcons.vp and opened it up. I am kind of confused by the format being used.  are the .dds file direct draw surface files?  Why are you using those?  I thought that was for textures or something.  Everything else in the interface uses the Interplay/Volition .ani format as far as I am aware.
Maybe I am missing something since I am not a code monkey

Before we implemented png support, DDS was the best format available to make new interface graphics, as it is easier to work with than .ani and allows the use of true transparency (instead of the fake colormasking that is used with anis).
So FSO can handle .pngs as radar icons then?  Is there a specific color format needed?
Also how does it handle scaling of the icons?  Does it base it on the size of the icon and then say "scale this up x%" or does it say, "draw this icon at x pixels wide" and making them bigger would bork the interface?  If I were to make new icons, is there a specific size to stick to?

Also, where are the command briefing icons at?

At least, from looking at the table, it seem each ship class can have its own icon rather than just generic fighter since each has its own entry.   That's something I would find useful.
The Great War ended 30 years ago.
Our elders tell stories of a glorious civilization; of people with myths of humanity everlasting, who hurled themselves into the void of space with no fear.

In testing: Radar Icons