Author Topic: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.  (Read 47174 times)

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Offline Scotty

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
No.  Explaining issues has empirically not helped.

Lorric, this is your invitation to leave the thread without me making you leave.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 10:41:02 pm by Scotty »

 

Offline Zacam

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
This is me, saying that I don't agree with that invitation being issued.

This isn't an issue about the definition of the word "bigot" but more about the idea of how/when/where it gets applied and under what consideration/discretion vs. just by presumption. Especially with social media making it a lot easier for people to instantly jump on pretty much anything in a heartbeat and flail the **** out of it and suddenly somebody ends up dead, and for what reason?

If you can't see the discussion well enough to have determined that, then maybe both of you need to take a bit of a break from the thread for a while.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
Theodore Beale speaks about a black SF/F author:

Quote
…it is not that I, and others, do not view [Jemisin] as human, (although genetic science presently suggests that we are not equally homo sapiens sapiens), it is that we simply do not view her as being fully civilized for the obvious historical reason that she is not...

...The laws are not there to let whites “just shoot people like me, without consequence, as long as they feel threatened by my presence”, those self-defense laws have been put in place to let whites defend their lives and their property from people, like her, who are half-savages engaged in attacking them...

Unlike the white males she excoriates, there is no evidence to be found anywhere on the planet that a society of NK Jemisins is capable of building an advanced civilization, or even successfully maintaining one without significant external support from those white males.

John C Wright (nominated by Sad Puppies) reacts to the ending of Avatar: The Legend of Korra, in which two women hold hands

Quote
Mr DiMartino and Mr Konietzko: You are disgusting, limp, soulless sacks of filth. You have earned the contempt and hatred of all decent human beings forever, and we will do all we can to smash the filthy phallic idol of sodomy you bow and serve and worship. Contempt, because you struck from behind, cravenly; and hatred, because you serve a cloud of morally-retarded mental smog called Political Correctness, which is another word for hating everything good and bright and decent and sane in life.

I have no hatred in my heart for any man’s politics, policies, or faith, any more than I have hatred for termites; but once they start undermining my house where I live, it is time to exterminate them.

Yeah, clearly we have a very hard time determining whether these people are bigots.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
Theodore Beale was expelled from SFWA for using official SFWA channels to transmit that writing to everyone in the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America. He has indicated that if his picks are not given a Hugo Award he will ensure that no future Hugo Awards are given.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
In this thread: Lorric defends white supremacists.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
Larry Correia was nominated for the Campbell Award for Best New Author at the Hugos in 2011, long before 'Sad Puppies'. He was nominated fairly. He lost fairly.

Brad Torgersen was nominated for the Campbell Award for Best New Author at the Hugos in 2012, long before 'Sad Puppies'. He was nominated fairly. He lost fairly.

Clearly the Hugos were biased, and authors like Correia and Torgersen could never have made it onto the ballot. Except they did.

Theodore Beale/Vox Day bought his way onto the ballot last year. His story was given the same chance as any other nominee. It was outvoted by 'No Award.' This is a meritocratic verdict.

George RR Martin analyzes the history of the Hugos and determines that there was never any anti-conservative bias, contrary to the Sad Puppies claim.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
The rules that govern Hugo nominations and voting are extremely vulnerable to bloc voting. Any group willing to organize a voting slate will dominate the awards. No group has previously been willing to organize a voting slate. Despite being given a fair and equitable shot in past years, the Sad/Rabid Puppies decided to organize a voting slate.

The only possible outcomes are:

1) The Hugo nomination and voting rules are changed
2) The award continues to be dominated by this voting bloc
3) Rival, more successful blocs outcompete this bloc, and dominate the awards

I do not have a viable candidate for Case 1. In Cases 2 and 3 the Hugos are finished as even a weak barometer of critical worth (which they are, currently, just as all the major SF/F awards and arguably even other entertainment industry awards).

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
And now I'll be taking a ban for a while. Taking a stance on this stuff in public is dangerous for my career.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
Battuta, are John C. Wright's views legitimate grounds for denying him a Hugo nomination?

And have you read any of his works?  I have read One Bright Star to Guide Them, and I can unreservedly say that it is fantastic, in both the literal and metaphorical sense of the word.  It is beautiful and imaginative.  I would proudly put it on the shelf next to my Chronicles of Narnia collection.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
Battuta, are John C. Wright's views legitimate grounds for denying him a Hugo nomination?

And have you read any of his works?  I have read One Bright Star to Guide Them, and I can unreservedly say that it is fantastic, in both the literal and metaphorical sense of the word.  It is beautiful and imaginative.  I would proudly put it on the shelf next to my Chronicles of Narnia collection.

Goober are you seriously, seriously saying that John C. Wright should be nominated for or have the potential to receive an award of any kind despite his public declaration that black people aren't socially evolved enough to have developed a real society (among many other, equally or even more heinous things)?

What the ****, man.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
I believe goober's point, and one of the major points of the SPs, was that a work should be judged by its own merit. There have been many talented yet flawed people through out history. If someone is able to make a compelling sorry it should not matter that they are a horrible person personally. An authors beliefs, no matter how insane or offensive, should not factor in, unless they make it onto a page.
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Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
The Swashy Award nominees for best self-characterization in this forum thread are:

Joshua, "OP"
Bobboau, "Reactionary"
Lorric, "Muddling"
Scotty, "Gonna Ban You"
Zacam, "Ban-dage"
General Battuta, "Ban Me"
Goober5000, "Supremely FANTASTIC"
swashmebuckle, "Useless Awards Post"

The voting period is now over and the winner was write in candidate:

Scourge of Ages, "Puppy disappointment"

Better luck next kerfuffle!

 

Offline z64555

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
I believe goober's point, and one of the major points of the SPs, was that a work should be judged by its own merit. There have been many talented yet flawed people through out history. If someone is able to make a compelling sorry it should not matter that they are a horrible person personally. An authors beliefs, no matter how insane or offensive, should not factor in, unless they make it onto a page.

This is paradoxical. Say Mr. Scumbag Steve is a talented author with a number brilliant works, very provoking stories that push the boundaries of the imaginations of its readers and overall masterpieces. He is, unfortunately, a completely vile human being. A peerless man who scorns any and all close to him, very impolite, a puppy killer, likes to eat baby chicks, and took our jerbs!

In a capitalist, consumer driven economy, readers buy works that they feel are well made, entertaining, informative, etc.. The money from the sale of these works then help drive the production of similar works by the same author. But of course the money do not solely go into the further production of works, no, humans are not simple machines where money goes in, products come out--the money also goes into the general livelihood of the author.

Thus, this presents a paradox to the ethical consumer who is aware of the author's antics. Does the money from the sale of the book go more into the production of more works, or does it go more into feeding the vices of a bottom-feeder that is a detriment to society (if it were not for the presence of his works)? From the viewpoint of the consumer, "Should I buy this book, because it is good, and I want more books like it?" or "Should I not buy this book, because its author will spend it all on dildos so he can superglue them to the butts of pigs?"

[Edited for better English and added a funny viewpoint]
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 01:38:29 am by z64555 »
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
OK then if that's the case then they were right, the award is and has been highly political. You just proved them correct. Congratulations.
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Offline Zacam

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
The Swashy Award nominees for best self-characterization in this forum thread are:

I just gave you a Gold Star for that, I don't think I've laughed that hard in a while now.
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[08/01 16:53:11] <sigtau> EveningTea: I have decided that I am a 32-bit registerkin.  Pronouns are eax, ebx, ecx, edx.
[08/01 16:53:31] <EveningTea> dhauidahh
[08/01 16:53:32] <EveningTea> sak
[08/01 16:53:40] * EveningTea froths at the mouth
[08/01 16:53:40] <sigtau> i broke him, boys

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
Goober are you seriously, seriously saying that John C. Wright should be nominated for or have the potential to receive an award of any kind despite his public declaration that black people aren't socially evolved enough to have developed a real society (among many other, equally or even more heinous things)?

What the ****, man.

Of course he should be nominated. Hugo awards should be apolitical, the work should be judged solely on its literary merit. Not by political views of the author. It should not matter whether the author is a white supremacist, black supremacist, anti-womens rights, radical feminist, far right activist, bigot, communist, anarchist or islamic fundamentalist.. if she writes great stories, then thats all that should matter.

As I said earlier, if there is leftist bias in the awards (and posts like yours demonstrate there could be), then a reactionary stance is justified. No matter what your personal political stance is, but purely to keep the awards apolitical. I do disagree with Sad Puppies methods, tough.
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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
Would, under the current climate, Starship Troopers (or any other awarded work by Heinlein) have received a nomination (much less won) if published today? Or Ender's Game by Orson Scoot Card? Or any other work by a bigoted author?

And the most important question since we are going down this path, how much of a bigot do you have to be to be excommunicated from being nominated?
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Offline The E

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
Would, under the current climate, Starship Troopers (or any other awarded work by Heinlein) have received a nomination (much less won) if published today? Or Ender's Game by Orson Scoot Card? Or any other work by a bigoted author?

I think this is a severely flawed argument. All it does is to point out that SF culture has changed over the past decades, which is pretty obvious. The great works of the past, if they were transplanted unchanged into a modern setting, will always come up short against stuff that is written with current sensibilities in mind. One of my favourite novels, Dune, would have little chance against modern works, with a modern audience. Why? Because it was written with the explicit intent to subvert the Campbellian stereotype hero, and since that stereotype isn't as relevant now as it was when Herbert wrote the piece, the impact of this thing would be much reduced.

As I said earlier, if there is leftist bias in the awards (and posts like yours demonstrate there could be), then a reactionary stance is justified. No matter what your personal political stance is, but purely to keep the awards apolitical. I do disagree with Sad Puppies methods, tough.

Please read the piece by GRRM that was linked to earlier in the thread. If there is a bias, it doesn't really seem to manifest itself in who gets nominated (and as GRRM points out, the awards where not works, but people get nominated and which are thus more liable to be influenced by the politics of the person being nominated show no giant slant towards any particular ideology).
There's also this long piece by Matthew Sturridge, one of the writers who was on the puppy slate, but declined the nomination: http://www.blackgate.com/2015/04/04/a-detailed-explanation/
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
*looks in*

*sees all the mess*

*laughs at swashmebuckle's post*

*Gets the **** out*

  

Offline The E

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Re: Sad Puppies are sad, not canine.
*looks in*

*sees all the mess*

*laughs at swashmebuckle's post*

*Gets the **** out*

It's so nice to have good, nuanced arguments furthering the thread and enlightening its readers like this.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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