[666maslo666]

This is one of those times I just want to post a link to an earlier post in the thread and create a (hopefully useful) loop. Your point has been shot down more than a Brewster Buffalo.

To whom, exactly, is a flag fabricated as part of a systematic anti-Black movement, a flag designed to recall a traitor movement created to ensure the perpetuation of slavery, unambiguously not racist? Where are these 'more people' who outnumber American Blacks?

Here it is:

http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/1pi31nugly/tabs_OPI_confederate_flag_20131016.pdf

Most people do not see it a symbol of racism, although a substantial minority does. And as with any symbol, this current perception of what it stands for is more important than its history, IMHO. Thats cultural relativism, too. So while I understand why there is an opposition towards this flag, I dont really care unless someone is displaying it with an intent to be racist. If its just a southern pride thing then its pretty harmless. Thats the difference from swastika, where it is hard to imagine a harmless instance of displaying it. But even for swastika, if someone is displaying it as Hindu symbol then IDGAF.

[General Battuta]

hang on im dum too

[General Battuta]

Okay no, I'm not dumb, I stand by my remark, which is:

 

Look at the chart you just posted. Tally up how many people believe the flag is a symbol of racism. Tally up how many people believe it is not.

I just do not understand why you'd post that without reading it.

[General Battuta]

Wait now I'm thinking myself in circles again. Let me see how stupid I am!

[The E]

Also interesting to see the age spread there.

[General Battuta]

So you have 350 people who say, look, this flag is about Southern Pride, less racism.
You have 440 people who say, look, this flag is either more about racism than Southern Pride, or just as much.
110 people are like nah bro it's about the Dukes of Hazzard.

How does that possibly support the point you're trying to make? 'This flag is just as much about racism as it is about Southern Pride' is not a positive endorsement. You've got more people calling racism than otherwise.

How does having 20% of your poll favor flying the flag, and 38% disapprove, with another 34% in the (very complex and interesting, but we'll pass it over) middle support the point you're trying to make?

Is this even important to the discussion? I don't think so, but all those years in the polling lab make it impossible for me to resist a cheap shot.

[General Battuta]

The regional breakdown does show Southern Pride support in the South, tho. It still tips towards 'this is racist' but more narrowly.

[Bobboau]

I think it is worth noting that no majority of any group, not even blacks, not even Democrats (for whom this is oddly even higher than blacks by a thin margin), considers it a purely racist symbol (according to this one random poll, the source of which I haven't vetted)

[Scotty]

A plurality does, though!

[General Battuta]

I think it is worth noting that no majority of any group, not even blacks, not even Democrats (for whom this is oddly even higher than blacks by a thin margin), considers it a purely racist symbol (according to this one random poll, the source of which I haven't vetted)

Yeah. Yet every group everywhere opposes flying it, in plurality. It's an interesting topic, which I think is why this discussion is still going. It touches on a few complicated issues:

Who defines the meaning of a symbol? If one group claims it symbolizes threat and harm, how do we prioritize their claim?

How do we decide if people have been tricked en masse? What does it mean if a symbol has been propagated through false claims?

Should we evaluate the entire historical trajectory that brought a symbol to its current power? How do we remember the Civil War? Are we remembering it accurately? Do we understand the ongoing repercussions of the war's aftermath?

If 99 people believe a symbol means one mild thing, and 1 person makes an argument that it is actually violent and harmful, how do we decide who to listen to?

[Goober5000]

You can apply those same questions to the swastika, as 666maslo666 alluded to.

[Luis Dias]

I think Battuta's questions go to the heart of my intuitive concerns. Doesn't help that things seem to go in shocks and bumps through some social madness. Reminds me of that crazy party flying building in Douglas Adams' hitchhikers guide, where it ravages everything it passes through, and these sensible questions just don't matter, what matters is a kind of struggle between "good" and "evil", perceived quite dramatically different from either the left and the right.

From the left's point of view, this is unquestionably a symbol of hatred and every instance of it should be banned, censored, shamed. In the name of progress and end of racism, one issue at a time. Makes sense. From the right point of view, they see this as another anarchic attack on human culture and tradition from the "Joker" crazy left, that seemingly destroys everything in its passage like it doesn't give a damn if they have real facts on their hands or not (see Tim Hunt). The left regards this right wing resistance as further evidence of their innate racism.

Both sides entrenched in these worldviews seem to make a huge noise when these issues prop up. Stores close down selling or display of the flag, some applaud others cry. Eventually everything settles down and it sort of comes back to the previous status quo, except for the general perception of the issue.

So I do wonder at that: What is the net effect of this scandal and how did these polls deviate from before this event against after.

I don't know the net effect but I'm willing to predict that the larger group of people who both said it's "tradition" and "racism" at the same time will be a lot smaller, and that opinion on the matter has majorly polarised, and mostly on the ideological left-right vector.

[Bobboau]

do we have anyone who actually has a positive opinion of the confederate flag yet? or are we still operating from a position of hypotheticals

[karajorma]

And as with any symbol, this current perception of what it stands for is more important than its history, IMHO. Thats cultural relativism, too.

Except that there are a bunch of people who perceive the flag as being a racist symbol of oppression And guess what, they are right. Both in their perception and factually. So why on Earth anyone who is aware of that would continue with the opinion "I'm wrong about the facts but I'm going to continue to believe that the flag means something else because I want it to" is beyond me. Choose a different symbol, one that actually means what you want to say.

If its just a southern pride thing then its pretty harmless. Thats the difference from swastika, where it is hard to imagine a harmless instance of displaying it. But even for swastika, if someone is displaying it as Hindu symbol then IDGAF.

You seem to have completely and utterly missed my point about the swastika. Waving Buddhist symbols at the Dali Lama is fine. Waving symbols that look like a Buddhist symbol but actually have a different meaning is not fine. Waving symbols that actually have a violent and racist meaning and no actual connection to Buddhism is plain and simple wrong.

[666maslo666]

So you have 350 people who say, look, this flag is about Southern Pride, less racism.
You have 440 people who say, look, this flag is either more about racism than Southern Pride, or just as much.
110 people are like nah bro it's about the Dukes of Hazzard.

I dont see where you got those numbers from, the first column titled "Total" says that 35% see it as a symbol of southern pride, 24% see it as a symbol of racism, 20% says both equally, 11% neither and 9% not sure. That can be interpreted as the flag being a bit more likely to be seen as southern pride rather than racist.

[Goober5000]

In the National Air and Space Museum, there is a left-facing swastika drawn on the nose cone of the Spirit of St. Louis, the plane Lindbergh flew across the Atlantic in 1927.  There is a sign next to it which says something to the effect of "The marking in the center of the nose cone is a good-luck symbol".

It's also worth noting that both orientations of the swastika were widely used prior to Nazi association.

[Scotty]

In the National Air and Space Museum, there is a left-facing swastika drawn on the nose cone of the Spirit of St. Louis, the plane Lindbergh flew across the Atlantic in 1927.  There is a sign next to it which says something to the effect of "The marking in the center of the nose cone is a good-luck symbol".

It's also worth noting that both orientations of the swastika were widely used prior to Nazi association.

Flying a (fake. Thanks thread!) Confederate flag is basically telling every black person that sees it that you are glorifying a period in our history where they or their ancestors were kept as property.  How dare they be offended!  It's obviously about southern pride.  Reminding an entire demographic of the country about how their heritage is slavery on a daily basis isn't racist at all.  Especially not when that's why the flag was designed in the first place!  Man, people are really sensitive.

Also thank you for pointing out how 90 years ago the swastika was different than it before it was turned into a symbol of genocide and tyranny.  That matters a lot to today, where it is still a symbol of genocide and tyranny.

[Goober5000]

So why not reclaim the swastika (both versions) as a symbol for good luck, seeing as it was used that way for literally thousands of years before the Nazis came along?

[General Battuta]

So you have 350 people who say, look, this flag is about Southern Pride, less racism.
You have 440 people who say, look, this flag is either more about racism than Southern Pride, or just as much.
110 people are like nah bro it's about the Dukes of Hazzard.

I dont see where you got those numbers from, the first column titled "Total" says that 35% see it as a symbol of southern pride, 24% see it as a symbol of racism, 20% says both equally, 11% neither and 9% not sure. That can be interpreted as the flag being a bit more likely to be seen as southern pride rather than racist.

It actually cannot! Setting aside the two nonresponse categories, the number of people who say the flag represents racism is larger, by 90, than those who believe the flag does not represent racism (or at least does not do so more than it represents Southern Pride).

You didn't read the statistics closely enough to catch that before posting, and you apparently didn't look at the second page at all.

So why not reclaim the swastika (both versions) as a symbol for good luck, seeing as it was used that way for literally thousands of years before the Nazis came along?

This is actually a really great question, and I think the answer is morally trivial. The swastika can and should be reclaimed wherever possible. But part of that process is going to require destroying the association with violence. And that's hard, because organized political anti-Semitism is alive, thriving, and proud to claim this symbol.

[karajorma]

I live in China where the swastika is still reasonably common. My point is that the swastika, a symbol of good luck for thousands of years is largely considered offensive in the west, but the confederate flag, a symbol which was invented in the 50s as a way of oppressing black people is ok.

Can't anyone see something wrong with that logic?

In the end it basically boils down to people thinking "I was affected by the bad stuff that happened to people under the swastika but not by the confederate flag. So **** those guys."