Author Topic: Digression on BWO development (split from Vasudan cylons)  (Read 4651 times)

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Offline Goober5000

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Re: Digression on BWO development (split from Vasudan cylons)
You're directing me towards threads from 8 years ago. You do realize people's opinions may have changed in that time right?! (and they have) In fact, I distinctly recall having a chat with BlackDove and Icefire when you had your "intervention" a few years back, and IceFire's words to me and BD were pretty much "there's still a lot of work to do, I don't have time or energy for it, so it's your game now". But I guess that's not convenient for your point.

On the contrary, it illustrates my point perfectly.  Eight years ago the campaign was done, and merely had to be polished up for release.  BWO in 2006 was in the same state that ST:R was in 2006.  In fact, we were worried that BWO would release before ST:R and steal ST:R's thunder.

What's convenient for you is that you keep redefining what needs to be done.  There's always a lot of work to do when you keep moving the goalposts.

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And to keep this short, because I'm not really up to spending more energy on these discussions with you (because we already had them for ages, it's getting old):
We're the ones who are working on this. We're the ones who stuck with it during the worst times of the project, attempted to pick up the pieces and make something out of it, and we're the ones who are still putting their time on making it happen. And at the moment, I'm the one who's trying to coordinate a change of things for the best, and I like to think I'm having a modicum of success. You might not like it, but it is what it is.
Think it's about time you stop having that chip on your shoulder.

What you are suffering are the consequences of your own decisions.  I'm actually delighted that BWO is making progress with HTL models, and I think some of the changes that have been made in the past several months are good.  But when I see you talk about an "overhaul" of the missions (which I took as a Freudian slip rather than a typo) I see the same mistakes happening all over again.  You'll note that I said not a word against your efforts during this most recent restart until you started talking about redoing the missions.

As for having a chip on my shoulder, I've produced a campaign where I made all the wrong decisions (Unification War) and a campaign where I made all the right ones (ST:R).  I know the characteristics of each.


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As far as I know, no new missions were added after the beta test. The problem, I believe, is one of expectations. The state of the community was completely different when we had the beta test. Certain things (see the mission I described above) were perfectly acceptable back then (and perceptions may also have been skewed also because it was a beta). Now it's not, in my opinion.

Every time you've gotten feedback from the community on its expectations, they have consistently said that BWO is worth releasing even if it does not have the features you think are mandatory.

  

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Digression on BWO development (split from Vasudan cylons)
This isn't going to achieve anything useful.

 

Offline Gloriano

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Re: Digression on BWO development (split from Vasudan cylons)
So nice, i guess we can *beep* them if decided to join with *beep*. But all the models, upgraded and new ones are looking really good! :)

I remember knowing there was a big branching choice, presumably joining the GTVA or the SCP?

Well it is slightly more complicated than that, i do think people who have played warzone and derelict are going to enjoy the twist

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On the contrary, it illustrates my point perfectly.  Eight years ago the campaign was done, and merely had to be polished up for release.  BWO in 2006 was in the same state that ST:R was in 2006.  In fact, we were worried that BWO would release before ST:R and steal ST:R's thunder.

What's convenient for you is that you keep redefining what needs to be done.  There's always a lot of work to do when you keep moving the goalposts.

''Beta'' started around 2004 and most of the missions were playable at that point but i guess the whole higher poly model stuff changed pretty much everything.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 09:18:05 am by Gloriano »
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Offline Goober5000

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Re: Digression on BWO development (split from Vasudan cylons)
This isn't going to achieve anything useful.

Perhaps not.  I've said my piece; I will leave it at that.  I'll split off the thread digression if Raven agrees.

 

Offline CT27

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Re: Digression on BWO development (split from Vasudan cylons)
I'm just a fan of FS and have little experience in designing games, I hope it's okay if I give my opinion on the matter since I like and respect both Goober and Raven.


BWO is something I've been looking forward to for a long time and I hope it's released in the relatively near future.  All I can really say is an observation.  Raven, I'm not demanding you release BWO right now or anything like that (and some of the new models made look great)...and as project leader if you feel something is absolutely vital for BWO then do it but just a observation from a fan (and you probably already know this as it's fairly obvious)...just remember any new stuff added to BWO will delay the release date most likely.  If I was a game designer I would ask is it worth it (like I said before, if it is go for it). 

If there's stuff you want to add later, you could always do a "BWO Deluxe Edition" or something like that.  I'm hoping that the renewed community enthusiasm in BWO due to BWO's recent revival doesn't fade away like slightly was before the revival.

If/when it does get released, I will be one of the first to play it.  It's in my top 3 of campaigns I'm looking forward to. :)

 

Offline Raven2001

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Re: Digression on BWO development (split from Vasudan cylons)

What's convenient for you is that you keep redefining what needs to be done.  There's always a lot of work to do when you keep moving the goalposts.

(...)

What you are suffering are the consequences of your own decisions.  I'm actually delighted that BWO is making progress with HTL models, and I think some of the changes that have been made in the past several months are good.  But when I see you talk about an "overhaul" of the missions (which I took as a Freudian slip rather than a typo) I see the same mistakes happening all over again.  You'll note that I said not a word against your efforts during this most recent restart until you started talking about redoing the missions.


Of course they are consequences of our decisions! There were plenty of bad decisions done in the past (not by me personally, but I still chose to continue on board nonetheless).
And of those decisions, I think that the worst ones were:
1. Excessive micromanagement, have the project be centered around the vision of 1 or 2 people in all matters (breaks team motivation, since they don't have creative input). This one we fixed, as this OP shows, and it's paying dividends in the assets front.
2. Secrecy. The community stopped caring about the project, since they had no idea what was going on. We didn't share anything while the project was in development. This one we are already taking care of: you see more about what is going on, you know the project is coming back to life. You'll even have access to certain assets as soon as their done (one of the Aaru versions, the HTL Ceres, and perhaps others in the future)
3. Waiting for the HTL assets before dealing with the missions (I mean at whatever capacity the missions would be touched). This one was bigger than apparent, IMO, because it allowed most of the team to just throw it in the corner, move on to other things and lose interest. The assumption that we needed to have all the assets finalized before polishing the missions and make them connect into a coherent whole (which they don't at the moment) was a very bad one from where I'm standing, especially since we have all the placeholders we need. Which brings me to my final point...

Yes, of course we keep redefining what needs to be done... the fact that we didn't in the past, was mistake nº4 (and perhaps the worst of all): we stuck with a final goal (good), but we also stuck with the methods to achieve that goal (wrong, because obviously it wasn't working). We were basically stuck in time.
We've been redefining what we need to do in all fronts, and the result is what you've been seeing in the past few months. A positive result. I fought tooth and nail to make this happen, including countless discussions with BlackDove to give me the green light to do it.
And it's connection with problem nº3 is that I don't think there's a point waiting for all the assets to be done to start working on the missions again. Yes, they might need a final, quick polish/balance pass when all the assets are done, but while we wait for those assets, we can spend that time to actually make the missions better. It's not like the HTL assets will be done quicker if we don't work on the missions, so why not take the time we already have? The idea, is that in the end, we don't spend a single extra day on the missions besides that final balance pass, after the HTL assets are finalized.
I feel that what you think I was saying was "we want to spend more time after the HTL milestone is met, to work on the missions", when what I've been advocating is to "spend the time we have working on missions while the HTL milestone isn't met". It would be a perfectly good waste of time if we didn't do that.

This isn't going to achieve anything useful.

Perhaps not.  I've said my piece; I will leave it at that.  I'll split off the thread digression if Raven agrees.

Yes, by all means.


I'm just a fan of FS and have little experience in designing games, I hope it's okay if I give my opinion on the matter since I like and respect both Goober and Raven.


BWO is something I've been looking forward to for a long time and I hope it's released in the relatively near future.  All I can really say is an observation.  Raven, I'm not demanding you release BWO right now or anything like that (and some of the new models made look great)...and as project leader if you feel something is absolutely vital for BWO then do it but just a observation from a fan (and you probably already know this as it's fairly obvious)...just remember any new stuff added to BWO will delay the release date most likely.  If I was a game designer I would ask is it worth it (like I said before, if it is go for it). 

If there's stuff you want to add later, you could always do a "BWO Deluxe Edition" or something like that.  I'm hoping that the renewed community enthusiasm in BWO due to BWO's recent revival doesn't fade away like slightly was before the revival.

If/when it does get released, I will be one of the first to play it.  It's in my top 3 of campaigns I'm looking forward to. :)

First, of course you can give your opinion on the matter. Second, I'm not project leader :P I'm just on of the most senior project members who is still active and trying to put everything back together.

Check my reply to Goober: we are changing things internally in terms of development, and the release method. I don't think we're ready to just "release everything, and make a deluxe edition later", but we're ready to to release it in an episodic format, which is already a big change and will speed things up :)

If we didn't think it was worth it, we wouldn't have stuck to this goal for so long. Releasing in 5 mission chunks, or the whole 40 missions at once, the directive will still be to have quality releases. There may be some concessions we might choose to do in the first few episodes (no voice acting, no weapon models in loadout screen, for example), but when it comes to missions, gameplay, story and visuals, we're still not ready to lower the bar especially now that there's a fair amount of productivity going on :)
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


Raven is a god.

 

Offline CT27

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Re: Digression on BWO development (split from Vasudan cylons)
I'm curious about something if you can talk about it:

One of the major plot points I remember from years ago with BWO was that you could choose at some point to fly for the SCP or GTVA.

How can you have a major branching point like that if BWO is going to be released in episodes?

 

Offline Raven2001

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Re: Digression on BWO development (split from Vasudan cylons)
Because there's actually 2 branching points. The campaing structure is basically like this:

                                  /---------------->\                                                    /----------------> finish
start-----------> branch                         reconnect, 2 missions ---> branch
                                  \---------------->/                                                    \----------------> finish

So we can have one episode before the first branch (it's 5 or 6 missions), second episode can have both 1st branch options and the first mission after they merge, 3rd episode can have the 2nd mission after the merge and second branch options. It fits even from a plot perspective, actually.The first act would be smaller than the other 2, though, which is good in a way, since it also doesn't have a lot of the new assets. There may be some other way to divide the campaign into episodes, but so far, this is the best solution I can see.
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


Raven is a god.

 

Offline BlackDove

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Re: Digression on BWO development (split from Vasudan cylons)
Big day. :)

 

Offline CT27

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Re: Digression on BWO development (split from Vasudan cylons)
Big day. :)

Can you say what you mean by that? :)

 

Offline Raven2001

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Re: Digression on BWO development (split from Vasudan cylons)
Think he's referring to all this talk and recent developments
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


Raven is a god.

 

Offline Galemp

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Re: Digression on BWO development (split from Vasudan cylons)
Because there's actually 2 branching points. The campaing structure is basically like this:

That looks familiar...
"Anyone can do any amount of work, provided it isn't the work he's supposed to be doing at that moment." -- Robert Benchley

Members I've personally met: RedStreblo, Goober5000, Sandwich, Splinter, Su-tehp, Hippo, CP5670, Terran Emperor, Karajorma, Dekker, McCall, Admiral Wolf, mxlm, RedSniper, Stealth, Black Wolf...

 

Offline Raven2001

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Re: Digression on BWO development (split from Vasudan cylons)
What do you mean?
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


Raven is a god.

 

Offline Galemp

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Re: Digression on BWO development (split from Vasudan cylons)
 :nervous:
"Anyone can do any amount of work, provided it isn't the work he's supposed to be doing at that moment." -- Robert Benchley

Members I've personally met: RedStreblo, Goober5000, Sandwich, Splinter, Su-tehp, Hippo, CP5670, Terran Emperor, Karajorma, Dekker, McCall, Admiral Wolf, mxlm, RedSniper, Stealth, Black Wolf...