Author Topic: New Year in Cologne, Germany  (Read 58956 times)

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Offline The E

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
If you have been seeing me in discussions on this forum, you would know better than to question my german language skills, just saying :P

So your answer to the very real issue of basically looking the other way and allowing certain crimes by certain ethnic groups go pretty much unchallenged/unopposed is to say "uh that's just how it is unless you want a police state?"

What nonsense. The police is actually doing a pretty good job fighting crime in all other areas as it is, EXCEPT in this area, because it is politically difficult to fight it the same way as all other crime is being fought. If you try, you run the immediate risk of being publically shamed as "nazi" and/or "islamophobe" on the one hand and on the other run the real risk of getting very real and very personal death threats to yourself and your family, by the group you are trying to police.

I am not saying that the experiences the authors describe didn't happen. What I am questioning however is whether or not these things are actually representative. Kambouri tells of her experiences as a beat cop, of incidents where immigrants, or people with an immigrant background, do not respect her or the uniform she wears. But she also (in an interview with the Frankfurter Allgemeine) says this:
Quote
„Meine Freundin und ich stehen für die große Mehrheit der Migranten und ihrer Kinder, die bestens integriert sind.“ Genau deshalb dürfe man nicht die Augen vor der Minderheit verschließen, die ganze Stadtteile terrorisiere. „Ich will ja genau das nicht: dass die Bevölkerung immer ausländerfeindlicher, rassistischer wird. Wir dürfen einfach nicht verschweigen, was die Realität ist, wir müssen klar und deutlich thematisieren, was die Probleme sind.“

Translation:
"My friend and I are representative of the vast majority of migrants and their children, who are fully integrated." That's why it would be wrong to turn a blind eye towards the minority terrorizing entire city districts. "This is exactly what I do not want: A populace that's getting ever more xenophobic, racist. We mustn't keep silent about what the realities are, we have to be clear in our discussions about what the problems are."

But then, if you look at the amazon reviews for her book, you will find several people saying that her account proves that integration has broadly failed, when that just isn't true. I am 100% with you that people who break our laws should be punished as appropriate. I disagree, however, with the notion that the behaviour of a tiny minority should be taken as any indication that everyone who shares that ethnicity is as incapable of living within this society.

That being said, you cannot stop the formation of small pockets of lawlessness in a country, unless you are willing to create a true panopticon society. Being shocked that they exist is a sign of naivete, in my opinion.

This is my main objection to maslo and Hornet and all the others who believe that closing our borders is the right thing to do. It's a blanket punishment for being born in a wrong place at a wrong time (and yes, I consider not being able to live where I choose a punishment, see Article 13 of the universal declaration of human rights), without any sort of consideration for the individual. Also note that freedom of movement is something the alien invaders currently running the show do not want us to have; it's one thing if capital is free to move, but granting laborers the same right means that there are fewer people around to do the cheap gruntwork.

There are lessons to be drawn from Paris and Cologne. But those lessons should not be "Immigrants are evil!", because that sort of sentiment never leads to anything good.
Furthermore, while I agree that it is on the immigrant to adapt to his or her new home and not the other way around, expecting or demanding that they'll immediately forsake every little bit of their culture is stupid. Cultures are always changing and that means that sometimes they're changing in ways we won't like, but you cannot demand that no change be allowed.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
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Offline Dragon

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Let me repeat this, it's important: The people who are disagreeing with current politics the most are also refusing to actually work within the system to make their voices heard. It's all well and good to disagree with the way the country is run, but if you're refusing to use the easiest method available to get things changed, what exactly are you doing?
Let me quote this.
But I tell you what ... the mood is definitely tipping over here. I don't mean towards violence and I don't mean the fringe. No, i mean the pessimism and resignation displayed by average Joe and Jane (or I guess "Klaus and Tina" as the case may be) over the entire issue. Also worth mentioning... according to recent surveys there were already 38% in favor of Merkel resigning (46,5% against, rest undecided) even before this new Year desaster. (http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/wegen-fluechtlingspolitik-38-prozent-fuer-ruecktritt-merkel-verliert-an-rueckhalt-in-der-bevoelkerung_id_5091850.html) Kinda curious what the next survey will say now.
Merkel's opponents don't vote? Well, they do seem to respond to pools, anyway. That was before the incident, when things weren't quite as bad yet. I think that they will vote when they get the chance. Unless you can provide a more recent pool that would support your statement, that is.

That being said, you cannot stop the formation of small pockets of lawlessness in a country, unless you are willing to create a true panopticon society. Being shocked that they exist is a sign of naivete, in my opinion.
You cannot stop their formation, but you can stop them from existing once you become aware of them. It's not the problem that they appear. The problem is that they last. We're not asking police to stamp out thoughtcrime, but actual crime happening right under their noses should provoke a response (that response being a crackdown and arresting those responsible, not "let's stay out of it and protect our own families"). If an area is known for causing trouble, for any reason, then it makes sense to post more surveillance, monitoring and patrols to that very area until it stops.

Continued existence of such areas is, in other countries, usually caused by organized crime, who tend to put effort into bribing the police to stay out of their way. They're also organized, which can make it difficult to actually pin anything specific on them. And even then, big crackdowns happen from time to time. The immigrants are organized in a very loose way, being more like tribal communities from wherever they come from. Dealing with them should be possible given enough manpower and political will to do so.
This is my main objection to maslo and Hornet and all the others who believe that closing our borders is the right thing to do. It's a blanket punishment for being born in a wrong place at a wrong time (and yes, I consider not being able to live where I choose a punishment, see Article 13 of the universal declaration of human rights), without any sort of consideration for the individual. Also note that freedom of movement is something the alien invaders currently running the show do not want us to have; it's one thing if capital is free to move, but granting laborers the same right means that there are fewer people around to do the cheap gruntwork.
I do not advocate a complete closing of the border, but instituting standards that a person needs to fulfill before being granted a visa. If you're from Poland and can't travel to US, it's usually your own fault that you don't rate a visa (at least in theory. In practice, this system is implemented in such a lousy way that it's almost random in who the visas go to). Conceptually, I'd go for something similar to the US visa system, except competently implemented, of course.

 
Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
You do know that the only way to get rid of these lawless zones is to switch to an actual police state, with police at every corner and informants in every house, yes? Good.

State authority has its limits, deliberately so. As a consequence, things like these will be unavoidable.

You said this kind of stuff a lot in the Paris thread as well. Do you not believe in fighting organised crime?
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline The E

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Merkel's opponents don't vote? Well, they do seem to respond to pools, anyway. That was before the incident, when things weren't quite as bad yet. I think that they will vote when they get the chance. Unless you can provide a more recent pool that would support your statement, that is.

Here's the most recent polling data, published today: http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/
It shows that overall support for the CDU/CSU hasn't dropped by much; if we were to hold a Bundestag election right now, Merkel would still be Chancellor (The Chancellor is not elected directly, but rather chosen by the party or coalition that holds the majority of votes in the Bundestag).
And yeah. Pegida's supporters do not, generally speaking, vote.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline The E

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
You do know that the only way to get rid of these lawless zones is to switch to an actual police state, with police at every corner and informants in every house, yes? Good.

State authority has its limits, deliberately so. As a consequence, things like these will be unavoidable.

You said this kind of stuff a lot in the Paris thread as well. Do you not believe in fighting organised crime?

I am not sure what this question has to do with the points I was trying to make.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
If you have been seeing me in discussions on this forum, you would know better than to question my german language skills, just saying :P

So your answer to the very real issue of basically looking the other way and allowing certain crimes by certain ethnic groups go pretty much unchallenged/unopposed is to say "uh that's just how it is unless you want a police state?"

What nonsense. The police is actually doing a pretty good job fighting crime in all other areas as it is, EXCEPT in this area, because it is politically difficult to fight it the same way as all other crime is being fought. If you try, you run the immediate risk of being publically shamed as "nazi" and/or "islamophobe" on the one hand and on the other run the real risk of getting very real and very personal death threats to yourself and your family, by the group you are trying to police.

I am not saying that the experiences the authors describe didn't happen. What I am questioning however is whether or not these things are actually representative. Kambouri tells of her experiences as a beat cop, of incidents where immigrants, or people with an immigrant background, do not respect her or the uniform she wears. But she also (in an interview with the Frankfurter Allgemeine) says this:
Quote
„Meine Freundin und ich stehen für die große Mehrheit der Migranten und ihrer Kinder, die bestens integriert sind.“ Genau deshalb dürfe man nicht die Augen vor der Minderheit verschließen, die ganze Stadtteile terrorisiere. „Ich will ja genau das nicht: dass die Bevölkerung immer ausländerfeindlicher, rassistischer wird. Wir dürfen einfach nicht verschweigen, was die Realität ist, wir müssen klar und deutlich thematisieren, was die Probleme sind.“

Translation:
"My friend and I are representative of the vast majority of migrants and their children, who are fully integrated." That's why it would be wrong to turn a blind eye towards the minority terrorizing entire city districts. "This is exactly what I do not want: A populace that's getting ever more xenophobic, racist. We mustn't keep silent about what the realities are, we have to be clear in our discussions about what the problems are."

But then, if you look at the amazon reviews for her book, you will find several people saying that her account proves that integration has broadly failed, when that just isn't true. I am 100% with you that people who break our laws should be punished as appropriate. I disagree, however, with the notion that the behaviour of a tiny minority should be taken as any indication that everyone who shares that ethnicity is as incapable of living within this society.

That being said, you cannot stop the formation of small pockets of lawlessness in a country, unless you are willing to create a true panopticon society. Being shocked that they exist is a sign of naivete, in my opinion.

This is my main objection to maslo and Hornet and all the others who believe that closing our borders is the right thing to do. It's a blanket punishment for being born in a wrong place at a wrong time (and yes, I consider not being able to live where I choose a punishment, see Article 13 of the universal declaration of human rights), without any sort of consideration for the individual. Also note that freedom of movement is something the alien invaders currently running the show do not want us to have; it's one thing if capital is free to move, but granting laborers the same right means that there are fewer people around to do the cheap gruntwork.

There are lessons to be drawn from Paris and Cologne. But those lessons should not be "Immigrants are evil!", because that sort of sentiment never leads to anything good.
Furthermore, while I agree that it is on the immigrant to adapt to his or her new home and not the other way around, expecting or demanding that they'll immediately forsake every little bit of their culture is stupid. Cultures are always changing and that means that sometimes they're changing in ways we won't like, but you cannot demand that no change be allowed.

If you do speak German I dearly suggest you do read Kirsten Heisigs "Das Ende der Geduld". Kambouri is a more personal observation, but Heisig really lays down the facts and backs them up with statistics. Furthermore, Heisig gives a much more balanced overview of all kinds of crime including German youth crimes. Crimes committed by perpetrators of arab and turkish background are not really focused on specifically, yet are especially shocking because a) there is so much of it and b) due to the nature of the crimes.

The main problem is: Culture, in the case of criminal clan/families of mostly arab background directly conflicts with the law and the constitution, which is pretty much the basis of our society that allows us to live together peacefully.

So speak frankly please The E, what do you really want to do:

If you have to choose between the constitution, most specifically, between human dignity, freedom of speech and equality between men and women, heck even the right of physical integrity on the one hand ... and criminal clan structures that deny all those rights to their members and all citizens they come in contact with on the other, up to and including dropping rape charges because the victim would "lose her honor" if the "perpetrator" (her own father) would be accused and punished and hence the crime would become known to the whole family.  And yes, this is a specific case, as quoted in Heisigs book, and that was not a justice of peace who spoke the verdict, but a german court, and you know why? Out of respect of the "culture" of the family in question. Because "culture" in this case would mean that if the crime got known, the victim (yes the victim) would be as good as dead. (Loss of honor usually leads to a honor killing, imagine that) and the German state taking away a child for her own protection ... from an arab family ... well imagine the press, can't do that, political correctness remember? So you are stuck with this mess.

If the same crime happened within any other ethnic community within Germany all hell would have broken lose and the child would have been protected by the youth wellfare office with the father facing a huge prison sentence and the media being all over it.

And that ... is a double standard that has now been established in the legal system out of pure political correctness and not wanting to "offend" their culture. If you haven't, please do read the book. The above was just one example out of a huge putrid mess of disgusting crimes that pretty much can only be committed in the way they are, because police and the legal system are deliberately looking the other way out of political correctness.


Don't take me wrong. I totally agree with you on this: Definitely not all refugees are like this. Quite the contrary, a lot of them are outraged about this just the same as any German is and what they do not understand is, why the German state does not do something about it. Yes, moderate muslims, turks, and refugees are all shaking their head in disbelief. Mind you ... Heisigs book and the case above is over 5 years old and concerns immigrants that live here in the 2nd and 3rd generation already (and yes, three generations, without integrating one inch at all - that alone a fead not one other ethnic group has managed.). Things have not improved. And decent refugees arriving now and see this mess can't understand it anymore than anyone of us can.

So if you defend "culture" just because of "culture" unilaterally ... what you effectively do is legitimize rape, murder and organized crime. That's how it is, so no sir, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you try to paint this black and white you simply do not understand the issue. It's NOT black and white. Culture is NOT always good. And you know when it isn't? When it is dehumanizing. When it is a culture of hate. A Culture of racism. A culture of bigotry. A culture of misogyny. A culture in outright disrespect to civilization itself. A culture unchanged from the dark ages up to today. ... And yes ... you have all of that, organized and strong, in the middle of Germany, within the borders of major cities right now, not because you can't do something about it, but specifically because everyone including the police and legal system are worried about it not being "politically correct" to do something about it.

Be careful what are unsuspectingly defending here.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 10:20:32 am by Mikes »

 
Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
You do know that the only way to get rid of these lawless zones is to switch to an actual police state, with police at every corner and informants in every house, yes? Good.

State authority has its limits, deliberately so. As a consequence, things like these will be unavoidable.

You said this kind of stuff a lot in the Paris thread as well. Do you not believe in fighting organised crime?

I am not sure what this question has to do with the points I was trying to make.

You're setting up a false dichotomy between allowing gangs to take over parts of cities and having a totalitarian police state, just as you set up a false dichotomy between having hundreds of people killed terrorist attacks and having a totalitarian police state.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Alternately, he's conflating "not allowing gangs from taking over parts of cities" and "not allowing gangs to even try to take over something". You don't need a police state to do the former, but you do need a police force which is not hampered by "political correctness" and taboos on taking actions against certain ethnicities. Generally it's pretty obvious when criminals become a dominant authority in a region, you don't need a web of informants or constant surveillance to find that out. It's just a matter of the police being able to set such places straight.

"Positive" discrimination can be just as harmful as "negative" one, for the very simple reason that in reality, there are always both of them involved, it's just a matter of which side gets which. Cultural sensitivity does not mean putting anyone above the law.
Here's the most recent polling data, published today: http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/
It shows that overall support for the CDU/CSU hasn't dropped by much; if we were to hold a Bundestag election right now, Merkel would still be Chancellor (The Chancellor is not elected directly, but rather chosen by the party or coalition that holds the majority of votes in the Bundestag).
And yeah. Pegida's supporters do not, generally speaking, vote.
That's odd, though I suppose this makes sense. Despite some extremist organizations popping up, Germany has gone a long way to make sure there isn't even the tiniest chance of anyone remotely resembling the Nazis to end up in power again. I suppose that things that would appease Pegida are simply not allowed in German politics. Here's to hope those measures hold up, so that extremists don't actually get a say in the government, even if they do manage to gain ground in public opinion.

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
If you do speak German I dearly suggest you do read Kirsten Heisigs "Das Ende der Geduld".
It amuses me greatly that you still haven't figured out that The E is from Germany.
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Offline Mikes

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
If you do speak German I dearly suggest you do read Kirsten Heisigs "Das Ende der Geduld".
It amuses me greatly that you still haven't figured out that The E is from Germany.

Heh stranger things happened ;) But yeah I probably coulda picked that up earlier (and I don t mean this discussion;-)) Point taken, and apologies to you The E as well.

I also realize I am probably more venting than discussing, my apologies about that too. Just a tad bit frustrated with the whole issue, as you can probably tell.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 01:19:43 pm by Mikes »

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
And here I thought you were taking jabs at him not knowing what is happening in his own country... :) TBH, most of the things you say have been very useful for non-Germans out there. I did not realize the situation with the integration was quite as bad as it is. I do know of gangs occasionally being able to "take over" parts of the cities in the US (but there, the stakes are a lot higher, due to firearms being commonplace) and in Poland (corruption is supposedly on decline, but it's far from gone), but finding the same situation in the famously orderly Germany (and with ethnic communities, not gangs, to boot) was a bit concerning, to say the least.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
You do know that the only way to get rid of these lawless zones is to switch to an actual police state, with police at every corner and informants in every house, yes? Good.

State authority has its limits, deliberately so. As a consequence, things like these will be unavoidable.

Getting rid of such ethnic lawless zones is hard. But preventing their creation is easy. Strict immigration policy is a very effective solution. There will be no ethnic lawless zones if immigrants are wealthy, educated, background checked and come in limited, well regulated numbers. And you dont even need any police state to have this.

Prevention is the best cure. When you begin to have problematic ethnic areas due to immigration, your policy is a failure already. Trying to solve such ghettos without significant changes to immigration policy is like trying to remove water from a sinking boat without plugging the holes first.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 05:44:39 am by 666maslo666 »
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Offline Mikes

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
You do know that the only way to get rid of these lawless zones is to switch to an actual police state, with police at every corner and informants in every house, yes? Good.

State authority has its limits, deliberately so. As a consequence, things like these will be unavoidable.

Getting rid of such ethnic lawless zones is hard. But preventing their creation is easy. Strict immigration policy is a very effective solution. There will be no ethnic lawless zones if immigrants are wealthy, educated, background checked and come in limited, well regulated numbers. And you dont even need any police state to have this.

Prevention is the best cure. When you begin to have problematic ethnic areas due to immigration, your policy is a failure already. Trying to solve such ghettos without significant changes to immigration policy is like trying to remove water from a sinking boat without plugging the holes first.

Yeah we all been thinking that. On the other hand, ... what do you do when you have such a wave of refugees on the way already, who want to be let in? If you ask the question of how to prevent them from entering your country, especially considering how many people are on the move ... you must realize that the only answers would be unspeakably ugly.

That's kinda the crux of the issue right now I guess. Everyone knows you kinda can't continue like this, but on the other hand, how do you stop it? I mean really?

So yeah, that's why we lately keep thinking in circles a bit over here i guess.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Oh come on, it's fairly easy. The same people you don't want to let into the country because you fear they might be violent will obviously all just turn around and go home quietly if you ask them nicely enough.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
It is fairly easy. Any modern country can easily choose to secure the borders, similarly to what Hungary does, and only spend a miniscule fraction of its GDP on it. A bunch of migrants have no chance against organized police or army. The only thing lacking is political will to do so. Claiming otherwise is just defeatism speaking, IMHO. Border security is one of the most basic functions of any sovereign state.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

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Offline karajorma

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Cool, call America and tell them they've solved their illegal immigration problems.
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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Yet it's faaaaarrr more difficult to get illegally to USA then EU. And if they catch you it's much bigger chance that you will get kicked out ASAP. EU did not care enough about securing external borders and now it's reaping the consequences. Which will be even more severe if we don't fix it as next millions of people are waiting for the weather get better to cross the sea. So what we shall do then? Sit and wait for half of Africa and ME to settle here?

 

Offline The E

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
The US only has one (albeit very long) border it has to patrol in order to keep the sort of low-income people you wouldn't want out though (and it doesn't do a very good job of it, given how large an economic factor illegal workers from Mexico are). Most european countries do not have such a luxury.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 
Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
MP-Ryan would seem to disagree with you there.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Quote
So what we shall do then? Sit and wait for half of Africa and ME to settle here?
Well, we could use the manpower.