Author Topic: OT: Explain the Universe  (Read 11613 times)

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Offline Stealth

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Originally posted by Mr. Vega

All the religions I have seen teach morals or themes but do not teach the purpose or true nature of the universe. My opinion is that was left for us to figure out.


Buddhism does... I'm not Buddhist, but i know to an extend Buddhism teaches that man was created to live in harmony with nature, so they almost become "one" with nature.
i don't know if that was what you were talking about



CP, you probably don't know what you're talking about... do you believe in the Bible?  (just curious)

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It will die off as well after a while; remember that the governments are the new gods and the laws are the new morals, and the system thus keeps constantly evolving. At this point, the morality still needs to be there to some extent, but I can definitely see a time in which ethical values will have become as irrelevant as ritualistic religion is about to become.


I disagree... there were governments even when Jesus was on the earth, and yet religion was still strong!  so, is it dying REALLLLYYYY slowly?  (like over thousands of years) !?

 

Offline CP5670

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Evolution seems to promote a moral society once it becomes advanced, as an immoral one will destroy itself.


That is true for the first couple of major social eras, but does not have to hold for later time periods. As I said before, the laws are the next generation of morals, and a new systems will come up later on. Also, you need to make a distinction between morals for the sake of a social good, and being actively conscious that the only reason that you don't constantly kill everyone around you is because other paths of action lead to logical contradictions, not because it is the "right" thing to do or a book tells you to.

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Religion was prevalent when life was difficult and a reason to hope was needed. That's one explanation about religion.


That is certainly one of the sub-reasons, but another, possibly more important one is that something was needed to enforce the emerging laws as societies started to form, since a civilization will collapse without an orderly system of law. The god was the police force of the world and performed both of its functions: god protected people from the "outside world," thus giving them the sense of safety and hope you talked of, and god also punished those people who went against the laws. The morals we see so finely embedded in the minds of people today are merely the first laws of our civilization. The other major reason for the formation and acceptance of religion is that of the scientific explanation, but I won't get into that just yet.

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And to anyone who says that a powerful man flying above in the clouds is impossible so therefore God is, you're assuming that God is a life form or matter you can touch.


If we get into a perceptual mode of thought, anything basically goes. I mentioned this in that old thread several times but never got a response (probably because there can be none): tell me why the god is more likely to exist than a purple ghost dragon who rules the universe.

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All the religions I have seen teach morals or themes but do not teach the purpose or true nature of the universe. My opinion is that was left for us to figure out.


But in that case the religions are not too useful, because the morals and themes will follow directly once we learn the true nature of reality, and they will be very difficult, if not impossible, to determine without knowing the latter.

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I disagree... there were governments even when Jesus was on the earth, and yet religion was still strong! so, is it dying REALLLLYYYY slowly? (like over thousands of years) !?


Of course it is occurring over tens of thousands of years; almost all such social phenomena go on in a subtle manner like this. We are now approaching the climax of our morality system, at which point the distinctions between the morals will form. (this can already be seen today: the Palestinian terrorists truly think they are doing the morally right thing, and so do the Israelis, but this is only the beginning) Also, Christianity is definitely not among the older religions; some others like Judaism and Hinduism go back several thousand more years, and so it is not really a good case to use for that argument. The governments back then were strong only because they knew how to manipulate religion into the people's minds.

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CP, you probably don't know what you're talking about... do you believe in the Bible? (just curious)


I think you can tell the answer to that from my postings. :D


In the end, it all boils down to this:

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or explains their beliefs with something like "I just have faith, in spite of logic"


It is perfectly fine to go by this, but then don't expect to be able to argue it out with total nuts like me. :D :D
« Last Edit: August 07, 2002, 05:32:20 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Stealth

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you don't believe in it? oh, ok...


why not though... curious

 

Offline CP5670

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Well, I do not like to believe in anything because that skews the ability to logically think, rather I assume certain things; the difference is that the believer will continue to believe if/when a contradiction is shown, while the assumer will drop the assumption immediately in the same situation.

The closest thing I could be said to believe in is something like this. A bit outdated, but a totally awesome book. :D About the only thing it's missing is generalized hypgeom functions (appell, meijer G, etc.), but that's not such a big deal considering the other stuff in it.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2002, 05:57:09 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Sandwich

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*sigh* I'm afraid I don't have the time to read this still relatively small thread (considering the topic). And besides, the majority of you know me and my beliefs, and those who dan't can ask those who do. I'll just let off with saying this: If there is a God, and if there truly are negative consequences for denail/rejection/etc, I'd rather be safe than sorry. And if/when the "Judgement Day" comes around, I'm gonna be mighty sorry that the majority of you guys won't "pass", so to speak - I've truly enjoyed our discussions and coversations on these boards. :nod:

That's about as logical as I'm gonna get this late at night, sorry if I've disappointed anyone. :)
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Offline Alikchi

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My take on the universe, life, and everything? I really don't care. If something happens, it happens. There probably is a god - or gods - responsible for creating the world, because it had to come from something, right? I have a close friend who's a celtic polytheist. I really don't care, though, because there is no wrong answer. If something happens, let it happen.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2002, 06:54:27 pm by 223 »
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Offline CP5670

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I'm gonna be mighty sorry that the majority of you guys won't "pass", so to speak


But then I will go to hell and I will learn things that the heaven guys never get a chance to. ;7

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I've truly enjoyed our discussions and coversations on these boards.


Same here; my ideas have definitely become more sharpened due to the arguments here, and I think all of us are for the better from it. :)

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My take on the universe, life, and everything? I really don't care. If something happens, it happens. There probably is a god - or gods - responsible for creating the world, because it had to come from something, right?


Well, there are a good number of equally plausible theories out there that do not require a god. I also have a slightly fatalistic view of things when it comes to the big picture (i.e. humans cannot do much to dramatically change the course of the universe), but knowledge is the final objective anyway, and it can be shown so for the entire species as well; in the famous words of Hilbert, "We must know. We shall know."
« Last Edit: August 07, 2002, 08:56:36 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Su-tehp

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Originally posted by CP5670
But then I will go to hell and I will learn things that the heaven guys never get a chance to. ;7


Now I know why I like you, CP.;) :cool: :D :nod:
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Offline CP5670

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Offline Stryke 9

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You ever hear of: "Heaven for the weather, Hell for the company"?:D

 

Offline Bobboau

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ok from reading you're responces, I don't think were talking about that same thing when I say morals, I useualy use the word ethics becase it doesn't have the religous conotation,
laws morals, ect... are all a way of defining ways in wich you can and can not behave and assigning consiquenses for your actions,
this system is not what I am refering to
I am speaking of the simplest internal feelings you have about how to act around and treat people

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Offline CP5670

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Yes, but those "internal feelings" stem from exactly the same things that the "morals" do; since they have stayed in the mainstream culture for many thousands of years, they have become finely embedded into the minds of the people just like any religion. ;)

 

Offline Bobboau

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so you are telling me some time in the future, people won't find stealing bad if it isn't against the law
or (better example) they will feel guilty about, speeding, or j-walking for example
or they won't find it reprehensable to cheat on or be cheated on by there boy\girl frend\spouse if there is no law againsed it
« Last Edit: August 07, 2002, 10:25:59 pm by 57 »
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Offline CP5670

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Oh certainly; as I said before, we have almost reached the high point of morality in human affairs. We can see the divisions in the interpretations of morality form even today on a large political scale (see what I said earlier), and this will continue to go on from the top down until the system breaks down to a point where the divisions consist of individuals only (thus effectively having no ethics at all), and then the law alone will be what binds people together into an orderly system.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2002, 10:32:31 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Bobboau

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so if it wern't againsed the law to say beat someone to the brink of death with there own severed limbs for no reason at all, then you wouldn't be pissed if someone did this to you.

I don't see this, if anything I see people takeing the law into there own hands more
and laws being less direct leaving people to determine what they feel is right more, in fact now that I think about it, it's a fairly long drawn out patern from the old theocricys that over regulated what people think to now were it is law that people are alowed to do and think whatever they want (solong as it doesn't interfere with anyone elses right to do the same, wich actualy restricts what you can and can't do quite a bit)
I hadn't realy thought about it, but from what I see writen laws are being drasticaly weakened in favor or personal determination and this is a long trend
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Offline Ace

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Originally posted by an0n
Taoism kicks ass.


Amen brotha an0n!
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Offline CP5670

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so if it wern't againsed the law to say beat someone to the brink of death with there own severed limbs for no reason at all, then you wouldn't be pissed if someone did this to you.


I would be pissed off, but the other guy wouldn't care. That is what I am trying to say.

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I hadn't realy thought about it, but from what I see writen laws are being drasticaly weakened in favor or personal determination and this is a long trend


Yes, but the written laws to a large extent dictate what the personal determination does; they all influence and are influenced by the cultural systems of that time, and once set in motion it is difficult to completely turn around such a trend. It is more of a subtle, behind-the-scenes effect.

 

Offline Bobboau

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so why would you be pised if he did something that was perfictly in his legal right to do
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Offline CP5670

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Because it was detrimental to me. But my opinion in this hardly matters; if for some strange reason there is no law against this, then the society would not and should not care.

I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make here... :p

 

Offline Bobboau

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I'm just trying to figure out how this is suposed to work
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