Author Topic: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq  (Read 25537 times)

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Offline an0n

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Okay. Time to end this argument:

an0n and lackeys:
[size=18]Right[/size]

Zeronet and lackeys:
Wrong
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
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Offline Zeronet

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Should it be Zeronet and lackeys "left", if your giving directions to where groups are located :p
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Offline an0n

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Should it be Zeronet and lackeys "left", if your giving directions to where groups are located :p
See this is why you're ideas are screwed up. You can't understand basic principles of right and wrong.
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
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Offline an0n

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
*claims victory*
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
"an0n's right. He's crazy, an asshole, not to be trusted, rarely to be taken seriously, and never to be allowed near your mother. But, he's got a knack for being right. In the worst possible way he can find." ---- Yuppygoat
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Offline Zeronet

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Oh i see, your talking about Just and unjust. I,ve always prefered to use those terms as opposed to right and wrong. let me state my opinion

"If Iraq doesnt let weapon inspectors back in, Then a war against Iraq is JUST and the right thing to do."
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Offline RandomTiger

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
If you want a fair fight, go join a boxing club. This the real world, with real politics and real consequences.

On the world stage there is no room for having a heart.


When people feel theres no way to get anything done without killing people its usually called terrorism.

Violence breads violence, I think that is clearly demonstrated on the world stage at the moment. Iraq is a tricky one since if we do nothing at all he will (if hes as mad as everyone says) do something awful. Doesnt mean violence should be our first option.

Saddam clearly wants to be the leader who brings east against west and if we are not careful we will play into his hands.

 

Offline an0n

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Quote
Oh i see, your talking about Just and unjust. I,ve always prefered to use those terms as opposed to right and wrong. let me state my opinion

"If Iraq doesnt let weapon inspectors back in, Then a war against Iraq is JUST and the right thing to do."

Did you even read anything I posted?
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
"an0n's right. He's crazy, an asshole, not to be trusted, rarely to be taken seriously, and never to be allowed near your mother. But, he's got a knack for being right. In the worst possible way he can find." ---- Yuppygoat
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Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Read up on Arab Armies and their internal culture first. An internal culture which is partly (if not completely) caused by the ex-army situation of local society.


From www.strategypage.com:

August 21, 2002; Fort Riley, Kansas, home to two heavy mechanized brigades, has repainted all of its equipment in desert tan, although the troops remain in European woodland (green). Several National Guard units coming to Riley for training all showed up in desert cammo. The New Hampshire National Guard was just issued new trucks in desert colors with orders not to repaint them.--Stephen V Cole


If this is true, and it seems it is, then the attack will go ahead at some point.

This is a series of posts from the Europa Universalis Board.

Quote
Originally by Crazy_Ivan80
P.S. the West may be dependent on oil, it is not dependen on Middel Eastern oil. In case of a prolongued oil-war the ME would only be hurting itself financially, economically, etc...

In case of such a conlict the west would end up on top because:

1. the west has all the hardware, that includes the long range delivery systems fo when things go pearshaped. In such a case we can make things go mushroom shaped (as a last result), the ME can't (in comparison).

2. when cut of from ME oil the west can go lok for alternative sources, which are almost all in the hands of western aligned countries, or countries which are becoming western. This would mean short term pain for the west, but long term pain for the ME as their entire economies are built on oil.

3. The west also has the luxury of being able to go search for alternative powersources, especially so since much of the tech is already there.


Quote
Originally by Keynes
Bingo. Among the problems of the scenario, it misunsderstands the contemporary economics of oil. In the early 70s, the ME oil countries were still relatively poor and had just secured full control over their oil supplies. So a boycott was a realistic strategy. Now these states have built vast bureaucracies, welfare states and patronage networks all funded solely from the flow of oil dollars. If they cut of spigot off, the system collapses. Thats why with regard to eg Iraq - its not Iraq that threatens to cut off oil supplies unless the West agrees to leave it alone, but the *West* that refuses to *buy* the oil unless the Iraqis do as they are told.


Quote
Originally by Kronn
Bingo. The ME oil nations are just as much dependent on oil sales as their customer's economies are dependent on it. We rarely see OPEC or probably more accurately, the Saudis, wanting to raise oil prices too much as to cause a recession or downturn in their customer's economies, since that means a reduction in oil sales.


Conclusion: Oil is a weapon the West can use to far greater effect than the Arab nation could because we can easily secure other supplies, or use our own. The Arab economies depend solely on oil.


However, the thread should the US attack Iraq without the proper alliance building and/or legal trappings then the Middle East will blow up in its face. In all our faces. Maybe not militarily (since they can't fight and win against the US) but in other, more underhand ways (OBL multiplied). That is a very real threat.

Several things to take into account:

1- Israel, as western ally (don't be fooled by criticism from Europe or others. The majority knows full well that Isreal is the good guy there), is extremely vulnerable to a massive arab attack, or massive arab terror attack. Lets not forget that several arab nations have missiles and that Iraq in particular still has SCUDS (or would't have to much trouble getting some). Those Missiles can be equipped with NBC weapons (though Saddam probably only has chemo and maybe bio weapons). Israel on the other hand has nukes and has, rightly so, said it will retaliate in force when attacked by NBC weapons (or if the nation is threatened by emminent demise)

2- Currently, due to Bin Laden, Islamitic fanticism (the real Islamo-Fascists) and stupid remaks by Bush and Co (Like Axis of Terror), the Islamic world (From Marocco to Indonesia) is convinced that the War on Terror is indeed a War against Islam. We all know they are wrong, but the people there don't know (and the governments there aren't going to tell them either... US hate is way to useful for that). So the past year has indeed succeeded in united the muslim world by using the oldest trick in the book: (percieved) mutual enemy: in this case the U.S (and close second: Europe). This could easily translate into action in the case of a US attack on Iraq.

---> currently both Sunni and Shi'a branches are united in their hatred for the US.

3- Also, several key allies in the region are dubious regimes at best, beyond contempt at worst. Those regimes aren't really stable due to their own stupidity and could be toppled, or change sides when threatened with demise, in case of a US attack. That would bring regimes into place that are even more anti US/West, and those regimes would not be unwilling to commit to attacking the US/Isreal either (which puts us back at 1). In case Pakistan: they have nukes and the missiles to deliver them anywhere in the region be that India or Israel (and they'd probably launch at both!). So it is vital that the US continues its policy of Divide et Impera Divide and Conquer/Rule. Only by keeping the Arab nations divided the US can win a conflict in Iraq easily, and that means Coalition Building.

---> following from 2 and 3: an attack could possible unite arch-enemies Iraq and Iran against the US. To prevent this a Pro-Iran policy might be usefull.


4- In case events go wrong: have people thought about that 5th column most Western nations could potentially have? Europe especially. We have large muslim communities in Europe, of which a sufficiently large number are fanatic and hostile towards us to pose a threat. How bad the problem really is would only be known when it happens, but in case of war I beleive surveillance of the muslim communities will increase, just like it did during the GIA (Algerian fanatics) period or when 11/09/01 (dd/mm/yy!!!!) happened. in any case: it ties down resources.
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Offline Mr. Vega

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Ghandi was right.....an eye for an eye until the whole world goes blind
« Last Edit: August 21, 2002, 08:29:11 pm by 490 »
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Offline Sandwich

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Someone get daveb in here... :D


Heh - he anticipated this kind of discussion cropping up, so he sent me this link about 9 days ago:

http://www.lileks.com/screed/college.html

Perhaps not exactly in line with the discussion, but an interesting read nontheless. :D
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 
OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
US is good, Iraq is evil. It's as simple as that. Bush and the US have not done anything bad to the world. They're trying to help it along by removing terrorists and building the economy to make their civilisation better for their civilians. Iraq has broken the treaty and simply deserves the consequences. I believe the US should be given supreme authority on Earth (like the GTVA in FreeSpace). But of course no-one else would want that. I don't even live or have even visited the US, but this is what I want.

Bobboau you mentioned the contributions of US-UK-Canada as the main contributors of the war against terrorism. But Australia has supplied much more forces than Canada. You should include us in that evaluation. Australia will support the US if any strike is made on Iraq and of course will contribute.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2002, 11:24:13 pm by 326 »

 

Offline CP5670

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
I don't have the time to write a full response to the stuff posted so far; I'll try sometime tomorrow. :D

Quote
Ghandi was right.....an eye for an eye until the whole world goes blind


They will still have the other eye, though. :D Actually, what would happen here is that some people (the victors) would still have the "eyes" left and thus human history would continue on.

 

Offline Kellan

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Should it be Zeronet and lackeys "left", if your giving directions to where groups are located :p


If you think you're on the Left of this debate then you're crazier than I thought. :p

Quote
In case events go wrong: have people thought about that 5th column most Western nations could potentially have? Europe especially. We have large muslim communities in Europe, of which a sufficiently large number are fanatic and hostile towards us to pose a threat. How bad the problem really is would only be known when it happens, but in case of war I beleive surveillance of the muslim communities will increase, just like it did during the GIA (Algerian fanatics) period or when 11/09/01 (dd/mm/yy!!!!) happened. in any case: it ties down resources.[/b]


Ivan, this seems to me nothing more than scaremongering. The reason that some 5th Columnists are so prominent is because they're few in number. The majority of British Muslims - and presumably other European Muslims - consider themselves British, although their religion is a large part of their self-identity. The majority are also economic migrants or refugees from mistreatment in Arab nations. I should expect that some would be happy to see Saudi Arabia etc toppled.

The only possible way I can see Muslims becoming a problem is if someone is stupid enough to make this a war against Islam.

In the meantime, scaremongering like that will lead to fear in both communities and possible reprisals. In fact, why don't we just have a nice Pogrom and wipe them out now? It will save Aryan Britain some trouble in the future. :rolleyes:

Quote
US is good, Iraq is evil. It's as simple as that. Bush and the US have not done anything bad to the world. They're trying to help it along by removing terrorists and building the economy to make their civilisation better for their civilians. Iraq has broken the treaty and simply deserves the consequences. I believe the US should be given supreme authority on Earth (like the GTVA in FreeSpace). But of course no-one else would want that. I don't even live or have even visited the US, but this is what I want.[/b]


If the jaw smilie was still around, I would need a row of them. As it is, I'll just have to settle for :eek: :eek2: :nervous: :shaking: :blah:

Bush and the US have not done anything bad to the world? Don't make me laugh. Every country has done bad things, although the US is first among equals, at the very least. Let;s see what I can think of off the top of my head. Bombing Cambodia? Bombing Granada? Embargo against Cuba? Tearing up the ABM Treaty, the Climate Change Protocol, the Chemical Weapons Proliferation Treaty? Being the world's largest polluter (25% of all CO2 emissions with only a few percent of the world population)?

The leaders of the US are only "helping Iraq along" if helping means 'with a gun in the back'. As for improving their economy, they're doing it slowly but with little regard for environmental consequences and profiting greatly from the process in the meantime.

I don't believe that any country is ready for global governance - nor, as you concede, is the world ready for (formal) rule by the US. Besides, if the US was in charge of the world I think you'd quickly find there wasn't much world left to be in charge of. :doubt:

Now I'm gonna read that article...

 
OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Bush, Clinton and Bush have done a great job managing a superpower. What would you do if you were in their position? At least they're not using everyone as slaves or bombing countries without cause or supporting terrorism or killing anyone who opposes their regime. Need I go on? What would you do if you were President of the USA?

 

Offline Kellan

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Quote
Originally posted by Pegasus V
Bush, Clinton and Bush have done a great job managing a superpower. What would you do if you were in their position? At least they're not using everyone as slaves or bombing countries without cause or supporting terrorism or killing anyone who opposes their regime. Need I go on? What would you do if you were President of the USA?


My ideology would require something fairly radically different which probably isn't possible given the current state of the American public. For a start though, I'd pay more attention to the environment. It'd be a bummer to win your war against terrorism in time to see New York flooded and us choking on smog. :lol:

I didn't have a problem with the first Gulf War. Nor did I have a problem with Clinton except over things like bombing a Syrian paracetamol factory and other such foolishness.

From a current and historical perspective though, I'm going to put your statement that the US does not, and never has bombed countries without cause, supported terrorism etc.

1. The US provides financial support to the Colombian government, which in turn employs death squads.
2. The US provided financial support to General Pinochet, who committed acts of terrorism against his people.
3. US corporations funded the apartheid regime in South Africa. The US government did nothing.
4. The US bombed Cambodia - with more munitions than used in WW2 - just because it was Communist.
5. They then funded and supported Pol Pot, the incumbent Cambodian dictator - one of the worst modern terrorist leaders.

6. Most interesting of all is the story of the small island of Granada. The US thought that the new government there was hostile to the US and would attempt terrorism, so they pre-emptively struck, bombarbing it from the sea and destroying homes, businesses and the island's only airport. The only US casualties were 4 SEALS who drowned because their equipment was faulty.

In response the government of Granada took the US to the UN. Although the UN ruled that America's attack on Granada was not allowed by international law, the US overruled it, because it has a veto. Granada then went to the NATO security council but again, were overruled.

As you can see, the US exploits international law to its advantage. Of course it always appears good, in part because of US media proliferation, and in part because it writes international law.

Need I go on? :blah:

 

Offline Tiara

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
You want the US army to come and obliterate me....


:nod:
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Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan



Ivan, this seems to me nothing more than scaremongering. The reason that some 5th Columnists are so prominent is because they're few in number. The majority of British Muslims - and presumably other European Muslims - consider themselves British, although their religion is a large part of their self-identity. The majority are also economic migrants or refugees from mistreatment in Arab nations. I should expect that some would be happy to see Saudi Arabia etc toppled.

The only possible way I can see Muslims becoming a problem is if someone is stupid enough to make this a war against Islam.

In the meantime, scaremongering like that will lead to fear in both communities and possible reprisals. In fact, why don't we just have a nice Pogrom and wipe them out now? It will save Aryan Britain some trouble in the future. :rolleyes:




Things on the continent are not as peachy asin britain, kellan. The number of conservative, and even fanatical muslims is far greater in Continental Europa than in Britain. And they're a lot more dangerous too. Usually national security handles them but some groups seem to have made it through the 'net' and have established themselves. So there certainly is a possiblility for a '5th column'. But like in the original post it is all about 'IF'.
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Offline Tiara

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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
In this thread I have seen the worst stupidity ever (Not by all of you though :p) Some of you are talking as if Hussein is a push over... Even if we might win the war, have you ever thought about the impact that it would cause?

  • Economical crisis in the middle east (As far as it wasn't already like that) wich will affect the entire world.
  • If a single Muslim is killed every muslim in the western world will surely rebel.
  • If a single Muslim is killed every terrorist faction will become 'very active'.
  • Thousands of soldiers will die and chemical gasses WILL be used by Saddams army.
  • I could go on but you got the point (I hope).


Sure, Saddam is a pain in the backside... But you can't just overrun him. I'm sure there are enough 'fanatical' Muslims in America to perform suicide bombing... Maybe more American/European citizens would die then ppl in the middle east.
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OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
...The US thought that the new government there was hostile to the US and would attempt terrorism...


Maybe they were... Are you saying they weren't? When did all this happen?

 

Offline Razor

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Re: OT- why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
well, I was just waching the news of the embasy thing and I sudenly had a question I could not answer
why doesn't anybody want us to go into Iraq,
(other than the Iraqies themselves)
do you think the husien regiem is a good thing?
do you think the crushing economic and political preasure aren't enough?
do you think they realy like him as there ruler?
come on! this guy is the best thing sence Hitler,
why is it that nobody and I mean nobody (we arn't even getting Canada to come along!!!) wants to rip Husein from power other than us?


One answer - "Because they didn't ask you for your opinion" :p