[Mefustae]

I`ll never trust a democrat. ever! I`ll admit it. Bush has made things more flaky but, I don`t think what he is doing is bad. What the medias are not telling us is what our soldiers are doing good in Iraq. Instead they broadcast the horrible and terrible things like for example this. We went over there to free people from a mad man dictator. Not just looking for weopons. Now the Iraqians can vote and make choices in their government and you say that this is a bad thing?
During Suddams reign he gased his own people muliple times. I`m quite happy he is gone.

Has the though crossed your mind that there isn't a giant media smear-campaign to destroy the government, and perhaps what they are reporting is what's really happening. There's no doubt that some good has come out of it, but saying 'we done good!' doesn't white-wash away the fact that it's also done a hell of a lot of damage. The media ain't making this stuff up, and I don't understand your mindset of 'well, bad things have happened, but also good things have happened, so everything's okay!'. Further, the US "went over there" looking for weapons. That's what they said they were doing, that's how they justified it, and that's the cold, hard fact of history. The fact that they changed their official motivation to 'freeing the people' when no weapons were found shows how the invasion was a little 'off'. It's that simple.

Also, I suggest you don't go into comparisons of what Iraq was like before the war/after during  the war. It doesn't take a genius to realise that things have gotten worse. Seriously, if you think Iraq is a more stable and a safer place to live post-invasion, you've got some serious problems.


Wait a minute, how the hell did we get on this topic?!

[Ford Prefect]

I don't know. I think we took a wrong turn back at the "Iraqians".

[Kosh]

Well, it appears that Bush and Iraq are always linked these days.....

[Mefustae]

Well, it appears that Bush and Iraq are always linked these days.....

As it damn well should. It should follow the **** for the rest of his days.

[m]

I'm sorry joyjorma, but your case is irrelevant.  We are not discussing Judaism here, but Islam.

The Koran says in Sura 9:81-95:

[9.81] Those who were left behind were glad on account of their sitting behind Allah's Apostle and they were averse from striving m Allah's way with their property and their persons, and said: Do not go forth in the heat. Say: The fire of hell is much severe in heat. Would that they understood (it).
[9.82] Therefore they shall laugh little and weep much as a recompense for what they earned.
[9.83] Therefore if Allah brings you back to a party of them and then they ask your permission to go forth, say: By no means shall you ever go forth with me and by no means shall you fight an enemy with me; surely you chose to sit the first time, therefore sit (now) with those who remain behind.
[9.84] And never offer prayer for any one of them who dies and do not stand by his grave; surely they disbelieve in Allah and His Apostle and they shall die in transgression.
[9.85] And let not their property and their children excite your admlration; Allah only wishes to chastise them with these in this world and (that) their souls may depart while they are unbelievers
[9.86] And whenever a chapter is revealed, saying: Believe in Allah and strive hard along with His Apostle, those having ampleness of means ask permission of you and say: Leave us (behind), that we may be with those who sit.
[9.87] They preferred to be with those who remained behind, and a seal is set on their hearts so they do not understand.
[9.88] But the Apostle and those who believe with him strive hard with their property and their persons; and these it is who shall have the good things and these it is who shall be successful.
[9.89] Allah has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them; that is the great achievement. And the defaulters from among the dwellers of the desert came that permission may be given to them and they sat (at home) who lied to Allah and His Apostle; a painful chastisement shall afflict those of them who disbelieved.
[9.91] It shall be no crime in the weak, nor in the sick, nor in those who do not find what they should spend (to stay behind), so long as they are sincere to Allah and His Apostle; there is no way (to blame) against the doers of good; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful;
[9.92] Nor in those who when they came to you that you might carry them, you said: I cannot find that on which to carry you; they went back while their eyes overflowed with tears on account of grief for not finding that which they should spend.
[9.93] The way (to blame) is only against those who ask permission of you though they are rich; they have chosen to be with those who remained behind, and Allah has set a seal upon their hearts so they do not know.
[9.94] They will excuse themselves to you when you go back to them. Say: Urge no excuse, by no means will we believe you; indeed Allah has informed us of matters relating to you; and now Allah and His Apostle will see your doings, then you shall be brought back to the Knower of the unseen and the seen, then He will inform you of what you did.
[9.95] They will swear to you by Allah when you return to them so that you may turn aside from them; so do turn aside from them; surely they are unclean and their abode is hell; a recompense for what they earned.

There's a lot more, but I'm not going to post it now.  Hopefully you will understand.

as if

-m

[Shade]

You obviously missed his point entirely, as you always do. I gotta ask, given how often it happens - Do you do it deliberately? The point quite clearly was something along the line that using an exerpt from a book to mark a religion as violent is ridiculous, as you can find the same things for most mainstream religions, Christianity most definitely included (indeed, Christianity overall has a far more violent history than Islam).

So if you mark one religion as violent due to what a millenia-old and probably poorly translated text says, you effectively mark all of them violent. You'd probably be right to do that, too, but it cannot be used as ammunition for one religion against another, only against religion in general.

[m]

I'm not disagreeing with that.  All I'm saying is that you can't say Islam has been hijacked when all they are doing is following what the book says, poorly translated or otherwise.  Heck, I wouldn't follow the Koran anyway; it's full of contradictions.  As the Koran itself says in Sura 4:82,

[4.82] Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.

If you want examples of the conflictions, I'd be happy to give them to you.  And if you are going to say that the Bible is full of contradictions too, I'd be happy to debate that too.  Read my signature for why I do this. 

-m

[Blaise Russel]

All I'm saying is that you can't say Islam has been hijacked when all they are doing is following what the book says, poorly translated or otherwise.

And so Christianity has been hijacked by Christian moderates?

holy **** call the president

[karajorma]

I'm sorry joyjorma,

If you're reduced to making stupid petty "jokes" (and I use the term very losely) based around my username you really must have no argument whatsoever to bring to the table. Either act like an adult or don't bother even replying.

We are not discussing Judaism here, but Islam.

You claimed that the muslim holy book encouraged violence towards non-muslims. I pointed out that the Bible/Torah does the exact same thing. I never said that the Koran doesn't contain such material. Simply that you shouldn't get on your high horse about the matter because your own holy book is just as bad on the matter.

[Shade]

And if you are going to say that the Bible is full of contradictions too, I'd be happy to debate that too

As much as I'd love to (and I mean that, no sarcasm or irony there), it's been done to death, and religion always loses to logic. So there's no point. Basically, believe what you will, just don't expect others to believe the same