[TrashMan]

Wouldn't be much of a war, a bunch of intelligent scientists against some religious science-fearing nutjobs.

Are you implying that everyone against religion is a intelligent scientists, and that every religious person is a science-fearing nutjob?

Cause last time I checked, there were plenty of stupid nutjobs that hate religion and plenty of intelligent scientists that are religious...

That example sucks because the analogy between someone knowing their mother and you knowing your God is... invalid.

Can't think of a better word for it.

You do know what the concept of "falsifiable" means, don't you?

Not the best example, I know. But it gets the point across.

Why should I be worried about what someone else thinks about X  if I know X to be true?

Because we are arguing basic morality. This is beyond the word of law, even His.

Technicely, it is not. if He is God, then what He sez, simply is.

Fine. Then ignore the fact that Lake of Fire is in fact the literal wording used. Regardless, my point stands. No crime can ever merit punishment for eternity, and on that, the biblical accounts are very specific. You have invented some strange, extrabiblical notion of non-eternal punishment, much like Purgatory was always an extrabiblical notion, something that can be read back into the texts, but not read out of them.

Yes, the Lake of Fire is a literal wording that was used. So what? Or do you take Genesis literally too?
Again, don't take things in the Bible too literal.
And I'm not inventing anything.

[iamzack]

Again, don't take things in the Bible too literal.

The whole "god" thing was a metaphor. Duuhhhh...

[Mobius]

Are you implying that everyone against religion is a intelligent scientists, and that every religious person is a science-fearing nutjob?

Cause last time I checked, there were plenty of stupid nutjobs that hate religion and plenty of intelligent scientists that are religious...

You know, those could be the exceptions.

[Herra Tohtori]

That example sucks because the analogy between someone knowing their mother and you knowing your God is... invalid.

Can't think of a better word for it.

You do know what the concept of "falsifiable" means, don't you?

Not the best example, I know. But it gets the point across.

Why should I be worried about what someone else thinks about X  if I know X to be true?

Uh.

May I introduce you to my friend Harvey? He's a six foot, 3½ inch tall rabbit that lives in my house. I've never actually seen him but I know he's there. He's a pretty nice guy, I never really talked to him but I just know him, you know? And he has psychic powers. Sometimes when I ask him to help me in things, he does! Once, I asked him to help me get yahzee in one throw, and it happened. The probability of that happening is only 1/1296; it's irrefutable that Harvey clearly helped me. Some have expressed their doubt about Harvey, but I don't see why I should worry about them since I simply know Harvey to be true.

When I die, I know Harvey will take care of me and we'll have fun eternity together.

There's a psychological term called "delusion" and if supernatural religions weren't so widespread, they would easily classify as such.

Buddhism, not so much but it isn't really a religion in the supernatural sense anyway. Confucianism neither.

Because we are arguing basic morality. This is beyond the word of law, even His.

Technicely, it is not. if He is God, then what He sez, simply is.

It doesn't work that way.

We've had the argument of illogical god before though. It led nowhere then and I don't think it's worth restarting.

[blackhole]

Hey, there's a good plotline for a science fiction story! Logical humans run off to another planet, build up an intergalactic empire and start a never ending war with the religious people! Not that it'd be politically controversial, or anything. </sarcasm>

...but man, that'd make for an AWESOME game.

If you look, a surprising number of scientists have a belief in God, they just hide it because they're "superiors" would fix it so that they'd never be taken seriously. 

I know. That's why I didn't say Science vs. Religion, I said anti-religion science vs. Religion, and that's also why the religious people wouldn't immediately be wiped out.

Just because you practice science doesn't mean you're a sensible person. Just because your religious doesn't mean you aren't. It's just that most of the sensible religious people don't take the bible very seriously. Most of them think its a pile of horse****, becuase it is. It's like you guys worshiping a bunch of fairy tales. If the old crackpots in Rome who wrote the new testament decided to put James and the Giant Peach in there, you wouldn't question it and would defend it till your last breath and look like a complete moron while doing so just because its in your religion which you blindly follow like a goddamn idiot until you die and find out "Oh sh!t, wrong religion :C" and go to hell. Oh wait hell doesn't exist, its just a metaphor. But God and the divine trinity ISNT just a metaphor. Because we said so.

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT

We'll all be happier once we get past the whole "god" thing. Or we'll just kill each other until there are only 2 people left on earth and make the entire goddamn thing a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't care, because if I'm wrong, and there really is an infinite hell where sinners go to burn, I'll go there in protest. WILLINGLY. Because what I do here, on earth, for the sake of our future generations, is a whole lot ****ing more important then my goddamn afterlife. You think our kids are going to thank us if we burn the Earth to a crisp, even though we went to heaven in the process? NOOOOOOOOO.

[TrashMan]

May I introduce you to my friend Harvey? He's a six foot, 3½ inch tall rabbit that lives in my house. I've never actually seen him but I know he's there. He's a pretty nice guy, I never really talked to him but I just know him, you know? And he has psychic powers. Sometimes when I ask him to help me in things, he does! Once, I asked him to help me get yahzee in one throw, and it happened. The probability of that happening is only 1/1296; it's irrefutable that Harvey clearly helped me. Some have expressed their doubt about Harvey, but I don't see why I should worry about them since I simply know Harvey to be true.

When I die, I know Harvey will take care of me and we'll have fun eternity together.

Quite a different thing, and it's easy to see why.
God, as the creator of the universe, the alpha and the omega, is self-cointained and self-explanatory. He is the source of everything and thus nothing he does is impossible.

A magical rabbit isn't. Where does he get those magic powers? What is the source of magic? What is rabbit doing there anyway?

There's a psychological term called "delusion" and if supernatural religions weren't so widespread, they would easily classify as such.

I consider that an insult.

It doesn't work that way.

I say it does and there's nothing you can do about it.
There's absolutely no point in arguing this further.

[Turambar]

Harvey, as the creator of the universe, the alpha and the omega, is self-cointained and self-explanatory. He is the source of everything and thus nothing he does is impossible.


see how that works?

[NGTM-1R]

Technicely, it is not. if He is God, then what He sez, simply is.

But we are capable of understanding the concept of duplicity. (And if we are, then God perforce must be.) If God is not prepared to explain Himself, to us, He's an idiot and a fool, and hence, not God.

The Church has had two thousand years. No explanation from God or man has been forthcoming. So what, then, may I do, that merits eternal punishment?

Yes, the Lake of Fire is a literal wording that was used. So what? Or do you take Genesis literally too?
Again, don't take things in the Bible too literal.
And I'm not inventing anything.

You are. Eternal punishment is eternal punishment. This is very specific. Nobody with even a cursory knowledge of the many, many references in the Bible can say you don't get it. Some theologians do reject the concept of Hell, either you get into Heaven or you simply cease to be, but this extrabiblical notion of non-eternal punishment you're inventing is just that: an invention. Of man, not God. It may not be your invention, of course, but when you get right down to it it's not in the Old Testament, the New, the Acts, the works of the early Church.

It's a heresy.

[General Battuta]

May I introduce you to my friend Harvey? He's a six foot, 3½ inch tall rabbit that lives in my house. I've never actually seen him but I know he's there. He's a pretty nice guy, I never really talked to him but I just know him, you know? And he has psychic powers. Sometimes when I ask him to help me in things, he does! Once, I asked him to help me get yahzee in one throw, and it happened. The probability of that happening is only 1/1296; it's irrefutable that Harvey clearly helped me. Some have expressed their doubt about Harvey, but I don't see why I should worry about them since I simply know Harvey to be true.

When I die, I know Harvey will take care of me and we'll have fun eternity together.

Quite a different thing, and it's easy to see why.
God, as the creator of the universe, the alpha and the omega, is self-cointained and self-explanatory. He is the source of everything and thus nothing he does is impossible.

A magical rabbit isn't. Where does he get those magic powers? What is the source of magic? What is rabbit doing there anyway?

But...these are exactly the same. Where does God get his magic powers? Where is the source of magic? What is this crazy man doing there anyway?

There's a psychological term called "delusion" and if supernatural religions weren't so widespread, they would easily classify as such.

I consider that an insult.

It's still true. If you believed your magic rabbit was gonna take care of you in the afterlife, it'd be a delusion. But your magic Creator? Completely legitimate!

[captain-custard]

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,62416.msg1237194.html#msg1237194

[TrashMan]

But we are capable of understanding the concept of duplicity. (And if we are, then God perforce must be.) If God is not prepared to explain Himself, to us, He's an idiot and a fool, and
hence, not God.

God doesn't have to explain himself to us. And given that he can shape reality itself was he sees fit, whatever he sez is, is.

You are. Eternal punishment is eternal punishment. This is very specific. Nobody with even a cursory knowledge of the many, many references in the Bible can say you don't get it.
It's a heresy.

And a day in Genesis is really a day? 24 hours?

It may be eternal. It may not be. I don't really know. I don't think it is, or that it has some fixed duration.
Nor do I know exactly what Hell is like or what the punishment is like. I know that it's not a real lake of fire just as I know that heaven isn't a collection of puffy clouds with chubby seraphs playing harfs and a golden gate.
Without knowing what it's like, there no way to make an even remotely accurate judgmenet if it's too cruel. Especially since God knows better than you hat everyone deserves.

[IronBeer]

(Sigh) It's times like these when I'm reminded of the "Invisible Pink Unicorn" and "Flying Spaghetti Monster Arguments".

[Turambar]

Harvey doesn't have to explain himself to us. And given that he can shape reality itself was he sees fit, whatever he sez is, is.

[Herra Tohtori]

I wonder what they would say if I went to psychiatrist and said that I'm convinced there's something that follows everything I do and can make anything happen if he wants.

And that I must not think that he doesn't exist because then I would suffer for eternity after I die, whereas if I think correctly I will be rewarded in my life and afterwards.

Then it's time to up the ante; tell them I believe he speaks to me and tells me to do some things and not to do others...


Then after a few sessions I would tell them I read this in a book that triggered this psychosis... and brought the bible on the session.


It would be the source of many a lulz. They would either make me pay for trolling the mental health care resources or declare religion as a mental health problem.


Of course, Harvey would never do anything like that. I know this because it was said in a book that assured it was true.

Also, TrashMan's argumentation reminds me of FSTDT.

[Liberator]

Here's a couple of things:

1) God is not magic.  He's not some white haired old guy somewhere that does parlor tricks.  And even if we were talking about RPG type magic where you are very very powerful.  That's still not God.  Remember that as the Creator, he is the source of all power, knowledge and wisdom.  Infinite, Omnipotent, and Omnicient.  A being on that scale would act in ways both subtle and great that poor simple humans can't really grasp or comprehend.

[Turambar]

1) Harvey is not magic.  He's not some white haired old guy somewhere that does parlor tricks.  And even if we were talking about RPG type magic where you are very very powerful.  That's still not Harvey.  Remember that as the Creator, he is the source of all power, knowledge and wisdom.  Infinite, Omnipotent, and Omnicient.  A being on that scale would act in ways both subtle and great that poor simple humans can't really grasp or comprehend.

[General Battuta]

2) The Flying Spaghetti Monster is not magic.  He's not some white haired old guy somewhere that does parlor tricks.  And even if we were talking about RPG type magic where you are very very powerful.  That's still not His Noodly Appendage.  Remember that as the Creator, he is the source of all power, knowledge and wisdom.  Infinite, Omnipotent, and Omnicient.  A Noodly Appendage on that scale would act in ways both subtle and great that poor simple humans can't really grasp or comprehend.

[Ford Prefect]

I hate to be That Guy™, but your argument doesn't necessarily counter all conceptions of god. Believers who subscribe to an immanent god would argue that the specificity of the nouns you both have chosen makes the comparisons meaningless. The uniqueness of the noun "god" is that it is the only thing that is not defined by negation; there is no analogy with a magic bunny rabbit because there are things in the universe that are not a magic bunny rabbit, but there is nothing in the universe that is not god.

With that said, none of the believers in this thread strike me as mystics.

[colecampbell666]

I've heard it described as simply "being truly separated from God".

So if you heard it described in different ways, how do you know which way is real? How do you know which religion is the real way? How do you know religion is the real way?

Wouldn't be much of a war, a bunch of intelligent scientists against some religious science-fearing nutjobs.

remember, "religious science-fearing nutjobs" did 9/11

Yeah, but they'd run out of Xenu-Air 747s and not know how to build more, being science fearing and all.

[blackhole]

I like magic bunny rabbits :C

I've heard it described as simply "being truly separated from God".

So if you heard it described in different ways, how do you know which way is real? How do you know which religion is the real way? How do you know religion is the real way?

For that matter, why can't I say that, just like you religious people, I have Faith in my belief that you're all wrong. Because this is exactly what you're telling me. So couldn't this entire argument be settled with 'We all believe that everyone else who doesn't agree with us is wrong, and by definition it is impossible for any of us to prove anyone else wrong, so lets all just shut the f-ck up and get on with life?'