[Deathsnake]

We have around 1 Million Refugees now in our Country and I think a Minimum of 3-4% of them are ISIS terrorists. 30-40% others are from Nigeria and other african Staates and there woman have no rights. And thats the People in Hamburg, Stuttgart and Köln (Cologne)

Overall in others Citys that happend to but not with so many People. But Merkel says - everything is allright :/ I don't like her! But all our politicans are weak! I would not give one of them my voice atm.

[The E]

You seriously believe that we have a small town of terrorists living with us right now?

Do you have any data to back that up, or are you just parroting what Bild, Pegida, AfD and other neonazis are telling you?

[Macielos]

It is not about collective responsibility, it is about Europe's security and stability. I agree crimes committed by the few cannot be an excuse to persecute the rest. But they are a reason to change EU immigration policy which has obviously failed.

For the past few months EU has been letting in hundred thousands of illegal immigrants who were totally out of control. According to UN, (as far as I remember) about 19% are Syrians and 75% are young men who left their families in their countries or refugee camps. They came here because Chancellor Merkel announced she will accept all or almost all. Lots of them understood that they get to Europe now or never. And so a crowd of migrants began to flood our continent.

The whole problem is not immigration itself, it is European welfare state with all its consequences for human mentality. The USA were built by immigrants who abandoned their countries, started a new live in a new world and who created American prosperity. And they were mostly peacefully coexisting, as they had to work in order to survive. European Muslim immigrants are much more difficult to assimilate as lots of them live in Muslim districts, receive social benefits and drain EU's welfare state.

What EU should do is:
- Provide better control of the borders, send a military if necessary. Put a pressure on Greece and Italy to do so. I don't want the borders to be utterly closed, but migrants must be verified via a standard asylum procedure. Now whole groups are let in and border agencies are almost defenceless as they are facing a real invasion. The only European leader who fulfilled his duties to control the border was Hungarian PM Victor Orban and EU elites called his a fascist.
- Cut off social benefits for migrants, apart from food and basic medical help.
- Punish migrants breaking the law with deportation to their home countries.
- Take actions to put an end to Syrian conflict and the Islamic State. That means an end of efforts to overthrow President Assad, working out a pact between Syrian govt and Syrian opposition and cooperation with Russia against Islamic State.
- Put pressure on Turkey to control its borders and hold its aggression against Kurdish forces fighting the Islamic State. Support Kurds and Iraqi military with all means necessary.

[Dragon]

You seriously believe that we have a small town of terrorists living with us right now?

Do you have any data to back that up, or are you just parroting what Bild, Pegida, AfD and other neonazis are telling you?

With how the recent events went down, I think it's a bit irrelevant whether this is true. What is relevant that more and more people believe that stuff. No matter what the actual facts are, something must be done to make the people feel safe. If not, they will either start taking matters into their own hands (violently), or even worse, elect a government that makes a big point about "solving the immigration problem" (toothbrush mustache optional). I think it should be a concern of the current government to not only keep the situation with immigrants manageable, but also to prevent its own citizens from radicalizing and to prevent a situation in which they're replacement by a government that causes more problems than strict immigration ever could. Just look at the US, which, despite a much less prominent Muslim minority, is seriously considering electing Donald Trump.

If the EU doesn't act now, the people will eventually force it to. We're a democracy, remember? The one with the most votes wins, and the immigrants (those with voting rights, anyway) and reasonable people combined soon might not be able to outvote anti-immigrants when really needed. Everything can be done with a big enough majority, and the current situation does everything to give those neonazis such a majority. Something reasonable needs to be done, otherwise we'll find ourselves led by those willing to do something unreasonable.

[Macielos]

I'm afraid the situation will be used as an excuse for the government to take away civic liberties. Same story that happened in US after 9.11 is now going to happen in Europe. The longer EU will ignore the migrant crisis, the more eager people will be to elect radicals who will promise them a bit of security. A solution bad for both Europeans and migrants.

[Dragon]

It will, but ultimately, this has to happen, at least if the government doesn't start to discriminate (which would be even worse). The question is, does the current government have the balls to do it, or will it be done by some "von Trump" elected after the current government is seen (key word. It doesn't matter if it's actually working hard behind the scenes on a proper solution) as doing nothing for too long.

[666maslo666]

You seriously believe that we have a small town of terrorists living with us right now?

Do you have any data to back that up, or are you just parroting what Bild, Pegida, AfD and other neonazis are telling you?

http://english.dohainstitute.org/file/Get/40ebdf12-8960-4d18-8088-7c8a077e522e

According to this survey, 4% of Syrian refugees have a positive view about IS. Further 9% have positive view to some extent. Multiply that with the numbers that have already arrived and yeah, you get a town (not even a small one). This of course provides us with the numbers of IS sympathizers, not actual terrorists, but I think its still troubling enough.

Keep in mind that this provides us with a lower bound on the number of extremists, not an upper bound (every IS sympathizer is an extremist, but not every extremist is an IS sympathizer). It would be nice to have a survey of other more common extremisms among Syrian refugees, such as supporting stoning for adultery or killing for apostasy, or survey of misogynist opinions, but so far I have not found such a work. Something like the survey of British muslims I linked before, or this Pew poll:
https://i.imgur.com/CYX54f8.png
http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

The prudent thing would be to do the surveys before we let high numbers of the people in question in, not after. If we find out only after the fact that extremist opinions are as widespread as in the countries above, then we are already in trouble.

[The E]

You're cute.

Tell me, why would someone sympathetic to ISIS flee from them?

And again, why are you in favour of refusing charity to a large number of people based on the behaviour of a few dozen people?

[Deathsnake]

http://de.sputniknews.com/panorama/20150907/304178603.html

[The E]

Okay. So an unconfirmed source based on an article in a british tabloid with a known bias for alarmistic reporting on immigrants is something to take serious now?

[Col.Hornet]

You're cute.

Tell me, why would someone sympathetic to ISIS flee from them?

Because an important part of their sick agenda is to spread further? And if some people say "refugees welcome" then hell yes that IS and its operatives/ sympathisers will exploit it. Especially if EU wants to grant them decent living conditions. Isn't that obvious?

[karajorma]

Honestly, I find political correctness every bit as irritating as xenophobia.

Frankly I find using a case like this to push a political agenda which is at best tangential to the case more disgusting than either.

[Deathsnake]

I trust any sources outside Germany atm more then the lokal ones!

No they say the german woman gets on armlenght away from others

So here we go

two armlength?

sometimes even it don't work


Sorry I cannot get our Country serious

[666maslo666]

You're cute.

Tell me, why would someone sympathetic to ISIS flee from them?

Just because a person flees from the carnage of war does not mean he/she supports any specific side in that war. The whole IS territory is now a danger zone, even supporters which are not fanatic enough to die for IS would flee.

It is a very popular meme that refugees cannot be muslim extremists because they are all fleeing from IS, but the argument fails, if not for other reasons then because the premise of them all fleeing from IS is not actually true. In fact, majority of Syrian refugees in Europe say they are running from the Assad regime, not IS:
https://www.adoptrevolution.org/en/pr-survey/

[The E]

I trust any sources outside Germany atm more then the lokal ones!

No they say the german woman gets on armlenght away from others

So here we go

You're cute.

[The E]

You're cute.

Tell me, why would someone sympathetic to ISIS flee from them?

Just because a person flees from the carnage of war does not mean he/she supports any specific side in that war. The whole IS territory is now a danger zone, even supporters which are not fanatic enough to die for IS would flee.

It is a very popular meme that refugees cannot be muslim extremists because they are all fleeing from IS, but the argument fails, because the premise of them all fleeing from IS is not actually true. In fact, majority of Syrian refugees in Europe say they are running from the Assad regime, not IS:
https://www.adoptrevolution.org/en/pr-survey/

It's interesting how you keep posting statistics that undercut your various talking points.

[666maslo666]

You're cute.

Tell me, why would someone sympathetic to ISIS flee from them?

Just because a person flees from the carnage of war does not mean he/she supports any specific side in that war. The whole IS territory is now a danger zone, even supporters which are not fanatic enough to die for IS would flee.

It is a very popular meme that refugees cannot be muslim extremists because they are all fleeing from IS, but the argument fails, because the premise of them all fleeing from IS is not actually true. In fact, majority of Syrian refugees in Europe say they are running from the Assad regime, not IS:
https://www.adoptrevolution.org/en/pr-survey/

It's interesting how you keep posting statistics that undercut your various talking points.

How exactly do those stats undercut my talking points?

[NGTM-1R]

Because an important part of their sick agenda is to spread further?

Actually ISIS is very much focused on the Middle East because they're working the checklist to their End Times theology. (Kind of like certain American Protestant sects who are very focused on rebuilding the Temple or breeding a cow that's exactly the right color because End Times Checklist.)

They only really started to plan and execute operations outside that area in response to those countries significantly impeding their progress on the End Times Checklist they're working off of. And even then they chose to get at the Russians by blowing up a Russian plane in the Middle East because it might fit into the checklist.

They are creatures of very limited interest, honestly. Spreading their philosophy and theology is not a goal, but a means to an end. Indeed, given their theology they in real sense don't believe in spreading their theology having inherent value. The saved shall be saved regardless. The unsaved are ****ed, and properly so. There's a deep undercurrent of triumphalist we were right and you will burn forever they share with the least-pleasant strains of predestination in Christanity, and profound disinterest in conversion over the defense of the faithful from new ideas and new influences that converts might carry with them.

tl;dr: You know nothing about ISIS's agenda.

[Col.Hornet]

Because an important part of their sick agenda is to spread further?

Actually ISIS is very much focused on the Middle East because they're working the checklist to their End Times theology. (Kind of like certain American Protestant sects who are very focused on rebuilding the Temple or breeding a cow that's exactly the right color because End Times Checklist.)

Oh, really? And I thought that they can't shift their focus outside Syria/Iraq/Libya because they lack resources and power to do so, lel.
Current situation on the frontlines also doesn't make it easier. But conquest doesn't have to be done by the force of arms.

And all that End Times- related stuff seems to me more like an excuse to be planted into fanatics heads by their leaders. To prepare them for a military failure. Just in case. As I remember Islamic theology says something about the final battle between followers and the infidels which would take place somewhere in the middle east (can't remember where precisely).

[Mika]

I'd like to point out for the rest of the people that the current German law has quite strict penalties if you are found guilty of racism. Also note that most of the Germans discussing it here were born in the time that law was in place. So that is something you need to consider.

There were a couple of interesting snippets here:

The only European leader who fulfilled his duties to control the border was Hungarian PM Victor Orban and EU elites called his a fascist.

And when you discuss this with Hungarians, it becomes clear that Orban was actually reacting to the situation and not being proactive, which is how it was reported in Finland. What happened in southern Hungary was threatening, and Orbans response was (based on the information that I have) very much justified and probably stopped a bigger uncontrolled response. Job well done, Orban!

Tell me, why would someone sympathetic to ISIS flee from them?

Not everybody is fleeing from ISIS, we are getting a bunch of people running away from their own least favorite faction in the war. However, it is a bit curious most of the refugees we get here are NOT Syrians to begin with (they make like 5 % of the 30 000), but Iraqi and Somalians.

What it comes to powers in Syria, ISIS is only part of the game and is rapidly becoming a puppet itself. The situation is likely far more complex.

• Russia wants a puppet state to project power over the region. The motivation? The ability to effect oil pricing comes to mind.
• USA and EU didn't have a plan regarding Syria and I suppose several Whoopses have been heard around the Pentagon region.
• Assad's government is running out of soldiers. There's only a limited number of times you can be ordered to bomb your own as described by defected Syrian Air Force pilots
• ISIS wants to spread the belief around the world.
• The Syrian rebels (several factions) want Assad out

In a rather realpolitik fashion (my enemy's enemy is my friend), it appears Assad is dealing with ISIS (oil trade) so that effectively ISIS are his front troops, and since Russia wants Assad to remain power, Russia bombs the rebels, which is evident from the air strike locations in the region. The reason that the Russian airliner was bombed is more likely a mistake from Egyptian ISIS cell who haven't been told how things are actually run in Syria.

The above description of Syria is actually not mine, but it is by Tom Cooper, a Vienna based strategy analyst. However, this is also a sidetrack of the discussion.


Ah, luckily it is that time of the year when Finland is cold again, -30C and hopefully it effing remains like that for the rest of the month. Cold kills the cockroaches and disinfects a lot of other things, and probably will make a sizable fraction of the refugees question their own sanity of applying an asylum if they were born in +30C region. Anyways, roughly 33 % are going to get an asylum anyways.