[Phantom Hoover]

It's almost like it's an important aspect of upgrading a model!

wait nope better just sycophantically whine about the polish hate brigade on irc

[BirdofPrey]

So yeah, yet another case of "not retail enough".

I don't care about retail or not retail.  I just think the sharpess of the pods looks odd and could be improved by increasing the surface area of the bottom.

Thinking something could look better is not the same as saying it could look more retail.

[Aesaar]

It's almost like it's an important aspect of upgrading a model!

wait nope better just sycophantically whine about the polish hate brigade on irc

It's significantly less important than you think it is.  Some of Volition's ship designs are ****, and I certainly understand Hades' desire to make them less ****.  There comes a point where blind adherence to 17 year old models makes the whole endeavour pointless.  You really ought to try 3d modeling at some point.  You'd see how annoying these kinds of restrictions are.

I admire his restraint here, actually.  I wouldn't have stuck to the original nearly as much.  You see why I don't do FSU work.

So yeah, yet another case of "not retail enough".

I don't care about retail or not retail.  I just think the sharpess of the pods looks odd and could be improved by increasing the surface area of the bottom.

Thinking something could look better is not the same as saying it could look more retail.

Which is why i wasn't addressing you.  I was talking to Dragon, and now Phantom Hoover.

[BirdofPrey]

Which is why i wasn't addressing you.  I was talking to Dragon, and now Phantom Hoover.

Ah, well OK then.
I put myself in the camp that we shouldn't be tied up too much by retail.

I hope Hades chimes in soon.  I'd like to hear what he thinks (compromise, minor modification, leave it as it is, STFU everyone for reasons)

[Dragon]

It's almost like it's an important aspect of upgrading a model!

wait nope better just sycophantically whine about the polish hate brigade on irc

It's significantly less important than you think it is.  Some of Volition's ship designs are ****, and I certainly understand Hades' desire to make them less ****.  There comes a point where blind adherence to 17 year old models makes the whole endeavour pointless.  You really ought to try 3d modeling at some point.  You'd see how annoying these kinds of restrictions are.

Well, if so, he should've started an "Ursa Mk2" project in modding. FSU's job is to upgrade models, not redesign them. So far it's been doing a great job at that, too, so it's not like it's impossible to make pretty models while staying true to the old designs.

I did try 3D modeling, but not remaking an existing model. The latter is a significantly tougher job, exactly because of the restrictions imposed by the original. This model would've gotten a much better response if it was not supposed to replace the Ursa. However, it is, so more criticism is to be expected. If you want to ditch the restrictions, why make a remake at all? It's not like a completely new bomber wouldn't be welcome. The point of the remake is keeping to the design of the old one, while increasing model quality.

[Col.Hornet]

I'd rather like the pods to be kept rectangular. Because that is a significant change to the original shape. Sorry but that's not an improvement of existing element. It's a total redesign. Like other guys said. In Mainhalls and cutscenes Ursas have flat bottoms of the pods. It is somehow used as a landing gear.
 Other things to discuss IMO are the cannons. You made them round while they were always triangular, which was making them very original and specific to that particular ship. Simple, round muzzles look very generic. It would be better if they were replaced with detailed triangular cannons (or at least please make some kind of triangular cage around muzzles or triangular muzzle breaks)

However I very like the engines and the fuselage. That goes in good direction
GL with the rest of work

[Phantom Hoover]

It's significantly less important than you think it is.  Some of Volition's ship designs are ****, and I certainly understand Hades' desire to make them less ****.  There comes a point where blind adherence to 17 year old models makes the whole endeavour pointless.  You really ought to try 3d modeling at some point.  You'd see how annoying these kinds of restrictions are.

It's not actually an objective fact that 's designs are ****; it's your opinion, and while I'm happy to respect that opinion I'm sick of you and Hades constantly dismissing anyone who saw something of value in the original model that's been lost as mindless haters. Somehow most of the other modellers in FSU manage to turn out designs which are faithful to retail, so forgive me if I don't believe your charge that it's an inevitable part of the project.

[FrikgFeek]

The cutscenes are inconsistent with retail(just look at the Appollo in the FS1 OP), not to mention that the whole game looks different in cutscenes. Engines and trails(in MediaVPs) look nothing like the cutscenes, all the craft handle differently, the Sath in MVPs2014 looks nothing like the Sath in the cutscenes, the Lilith looks different from retail(to differentiate it from the Cain), the Rakshasa is a lot blacker than in retail and the cutscenes.

And this still looks like the Ursa, the shape is still there. Now it's up to personal preference whether you prefer the bomb bays to be rectangular or not(I personally think rectangular ones would look better) but I really don't think "looking like retail" should be the #1 goal.

[The Dagger]

Guys, chill out, please?
The model looks good for now and relatively early WIP. To be honest, changing the base of that thing is the simplest modeling task I have ever witnessed, so if you want to change it on your own, that's fairly easy once the model is out.
In the meantime, criticizing Hades so much will probably just make him ragequit. Sure, you can raise your concern if some design choice is not of your liking, but in the end it's up to the modeler to decide. And having a two page discussion on a single detail before he even gives us an update is ridiculous. You should have seen the version with straight engine pods which IMO makes more sense than this spread out thing. He's really restraining himself here. At the end of the day, he's doing this for fun and freely giving us the fruit of his labor. Having people argue so strongly for a simple detail is not my definition of fun.
And saying all models are good is crazy. Go check the Bast, the Aten or the Bes and check their upgrade. Oh, right, there's no Bes upgrade because it's so ugly nobody can come out with an interesting interpretation. I'm talking vasudan here, 'cause I know those models as the back of my hand.

[FrikgFeek]

You might be right. Maybe a mod should split the thread into a new one about Keeping consistent with retail or whatever. The discussion, I think, is tangential as the bomb bays are hardly the ultimate point here.

[Aesaar]

It's significantly less important than you think it is.  Some of Volition's ship designs are ****, and I certainly understand Hades' desire to make them less ****.  There comes a point where blind adherence to 17 year old models makes the whole endeavour pointless.  You really ought to try 3d modeling at some point.  You'd see how annoying these kinds of restrictions are.

It's not actually an objective fact that 's designs are ****; it's your opinion, and while I'm happy to respect that opinion I'm sick of you and Hades constantly dismissing anyone who saw something of value in the original model that's been lost as mindless haters. Somehow most of the other modellers in FSU manage to turn out designs which are faithful to retail, so forgive me if I don't believe your charge that it's an inevitable part of the project.

You're right, it's not an objective fact that some of Volition's designs are ****.  Just like it's not an objective fact that Hades' modifications are too much.  But if Hades thinks the Ursa looks like ****, and he wants to make it better, and he thinks this helps, well, I'm afraid his opinion trumps yours, because he's the one actually making the model.

You can give it a go yourself, you know.  Hell, if that's too much for you, you can just design your own missile pod and modify this model once it's done.  That's a trivial job.

Well, if so, he should've started an "Ursa Mk2" project in modding. FSU's job is to upgrade models, not redesign them. So far it's been doing a great job at that, too, so it's not like it's impossible to make pretty models while staying true to the old designs.

This is not an mk2.  This is still 100% an Ursa mk1.  If Hades had wanted to make an mk2, he wouldn't have restrained himself nearly as much as he has.  Slightly different missile pods don't suddenly make this an mk2.

[Col.Hornet]

Using different solid is not an upgrade. It's a total redesign. In Ursa's case it's breaking the original shape significantly. Especially if you look at it from the front. That's all I can say for now. I like the fuselage and the current beginning of the engines. But I completely don't see the reason for changing the pods that much. Saying with full honesty: I hate them.
But the final decision goes to Hades.

[Dragon]

Guys, chill out, please?
The model looks good for now and relatively early WIP. To be honest, changing the base of that thing is the simplest modeling task I have ever witnessed, so if you want to change it on your own, that's fairly easy once the model is out.

Sorry, but this is just not feasible. Most people will not be able to "change it on their own". Unless you mean tweaking the model and re-releasing it. Also, when more detail comes in, this might not be so easy. Oh, and let's not forget about the UV map, which would be messed up if you tried changing a model around like that. This just doesn't work, the change needs to be made now, before the model is finalized further.

As for the Vasudan models, both Bast and Aten do keep in line with the outlines of the originals. The Bes does need some love, but I think it's more because of the fact that it's not a very important ship (freighters were always getting the short end of the stick with regards to upgrades).

Well, if so, he should've started an "Ursa Mk2" project in modding. FSU's job is to upgrade models, not redesign them. So far it's been doing a great job at that, too, so it's not like it's impossible to make pretty models while staying true to the old designs.

This is not an mk2.  This is still 100% an Ursa mk1.  If Hades had wanted to make an mk2, he wouldn't have restrained himself nearly as much as he has.  Slightly different missile pods don't suddenly make this an mk2.

This is why I'm not saying just to make it an Mk2. It's neither here nor there, too different from the original to work as a replacement, yet not different enough to be a different ship. It could work as a variant of the original Ursa, at best, but passing it off as the original design is a bad decision.

I'm afraid his opinion trumps yours, because he's the one actually making the model.

Sorry, but it doesn't. He's not making a model for himself, or for his own mod. He is contributing to a community project. As such, "haters gonna hate" does not apply here. Models intended for FSUP should take into account the opinions of the community, and as you can see, there's quite a bit of opposition towards the redesign.

[Aesaar]

And there's quite a bit of support for it.  You weren't around on IRC when he showed it to us.

[The E]

Sorry, but it doesn't. He's not making a model for himself, or for his own mod. He is contributing to a community project. As such, "haters gonna hate" does not apply here. Models intended for FSUP should take into account the opinions of the community, and as you can see, there's quite a bit of opposition towards the redesign.

And how many times do we have to repeat that just because a model was made as a replacement for a retail model or a model in the MVPs, there is no obligation on the part of FSU to include it in an MVP release?

Whether or not this model is MVP-worthy is a discussion that will be held once it is finished, or reasonably close to being finished, not sooner.

[Lorric]

I want to put in my two cents here as well.

@ Aesaar First of all, faithfulness to retail should be the number one priority imo. And making a ship from a standpoint of the ship is **** seems like a very wrong position to do it from. This should be a labour of love to improve an existing model, not make sweeping changes to it because it's ****. Change too much, and if we use this as an example, it wouldn’t be the GTB Ursa anymore, it would be Aesaar’s GTB Ursa. It would have less and more Aesaar about it. It wouldn’t be the GTB Ursa made by it would be Aesaar’s version of it.

About the launchers, I too would be in the camp to keep them close to retail with the flat base for the Ursa to sit on, though I won’t be fussed if it stays the way it is, it’s not a drastic enough change to wreck the feel of the ship for me, I look at it and still see the GTB Ursa. Purely from a model standpoint than a retail accurate standpoint, I don’t think it makes the model better or worse. I don’t see the need to have changed it.

If you’re making a model as a personal project or to put into a mod that you’re creating by yourself, then the only opinion that matters is yours.

If you’re creating a model for a project that has a team, then the opinions of the team are also relevant.

If you’re creating a model that is for the Freespace Upgrade Project, then everyone’s opinion matters. Because it changes the core gameplay for all of us. You’re not making the model for yourself. You’re not making the model for a single mod. You’re making a model for the whole community, so it should meet with the community’s approval.

Who did he show it to on IRC exactly? People he knew would approve, his buddies, or everyone on IRC at the time? Now it’s been opened up to the whole community, and the trend is that the launchers would be better being changed to the look and function of the retail design. I can’t see this discussion on IRC. I question why even do IRC first at all when you could do it to the whole community, as it’s ultimately the whole community who should be deciding the fate of this model since that is who it is being created for.

@ The Dagger

I don’t think anyone’s piling on Hades. He’s not even in here yet to be piled on. The thread has got heated because people are being made to feel their opinion doesn’t matter or matters less than the opinion of certain people, largely thanks to Aesaar. And that retail faithfulness matters less than Aesaar’s subjective opinion on whether a model is **** or not. Without him, I reckon the atmosphere in here would be much more friendly.

@ The E

So it’s okay for IRC to comment on the model when he shows it to them, but when he shows it to us in a discussion thread we should just shut up and wait because it’s “too early” even though he has chosen to open the model up for discussion at this time? Better to voice our concerns now, than further down the road when he has wasted time and energy on something if that something isn’t going to be there in the final product or is going to cause his model to not get used as an Ursa upgrade.

[mjn.mixael]

Yeah, pretty much this. The only problem are the angled missile pods, which contradict not only the original model, but also some mainhall images where the bomber clearly sits on those pods. Ursa is used in a few cinematics, so having a disconnect such as that would feel weird, IMO.

I.. Wut? The Ursa is in one cutscene, FS1 Endgame. It would take me only about 2 days to re-render the scene with new models. Big deal. If (and that's a big if considering the history) this model gets textured and finished anytime soon... then I'll re-render the cutscene.

The Ursa is not in any cbanims as far as I can remember.. but admittedly at 400+ anims in to my Mad-Awesome CBAnim career (do I get paid for that?), I can't recall it being in any.

Mainhalls... man.. if only someone had remade the mainhalls with source files for a re-render. Oh wait... I could even add landing struts like the fighters used if I really had to! But I doubt it.

[The E]

So it’s okay for IRC to comment on the model when he shows it to them, but when he shows it to us in a discussion thread we should just shut up and wait because it’s “too early” even though he has chosen to open the model up for discussion at this time? Better to voice our concerns now, than further down the road when he has wasted time and energy on something if that something isn’t going to be there in the final product or is going to cause his model to not get used as an Ursa upgrade.

No, it is perfectly OK to discuss it here and now. But you should keep in mind that, no matter how this thing looks now or how it will look in the future, it is not guaranteed that it will be in the MediaVPs. In this thread, I see a lot of people coming at it based on the assumption that this model will definitely be in there, and criticising it perhaps more vehemently than is actually warranted. This is making the discussion more hostile and more confrontational than it should be.

[Lorric]

Ah, gotcha. Thanks.

[StarSlayer]

I'd like to see how much content would ever be completed if everyone in the community had to be happy with it at every stage of development.  Considering the success rate of design by committee projects design by internet argument aught to yield a huge success.

If you want to add feedback that's great but accept that your opinion is your own and doesn't necessarily override the person doing the actual work.  If you find their results unacceptable you can certainly go ahead and make your own.  As The_E keeps stating nothing is set in stone till its been accepted into the code.  This means that trying to relentlessly hammer away at the person in the creative process is both unnecessary and rude.