Author Topic: Some more research into FS2's vast depths....  (Read 6907 times)

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Offline Singh

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Some more research into FS2's vast depths....
I was going through Karajoma's FAQ, and noticed the mission titles...each, in it's own way, is unique and rather significant as a title. Although tihs may never be related to the story or the game, I decided to do a little research into it anyway....interesting bits highlighted in bold.

Mission 1: Surrender, Belisarius!

Article

Article 2

Excerpt from the 1st article:
He had many wars during his reign, but he himself did not take part in them. He was not experienced as a soldier, for he had spent most of his time in study. He was fortunate enough, however, to have two great generals to lead his armies. One of them was named Belisarius and the other Narses.
Belisarius was one of the greatest soldiers that ever lived. He gained wonderful victories for Justinian, and conquered some of the old Roman provinces that had been lost for many years.

Mission 2: The Place of Chariots

Surprisingly, its actually a real place....

Excerpt:
Having left Londinium to its fate, Suetonius Paulinus, the Roman governor, eventually accumulated 10,000 infantry – hardly equal to the 200,000 rebels that he would have to face. So finding a suitable battlefield that would aid his outnumbered soldiers was particularly important to him.

Exactly where this was is still debated by historians. However, one compelling theory makes Mancetter, a village near Atherstone in Warwickshire, the most likely.

First, it is believed that this is where Paulinus's troops (coming from Anglesey) and the rebels (coming from Verulamium) would have met, given the respective speeds of their progress. Mancetter – whose name means 'the place of chariots' – was the site of a Roman fort on Watling Street, the major Roman road that stretched from London to Anglesey. Both sides would have utilised this road to reach each other quickly.

Mission 3: The Roman's Blunder.

This was pretty hard to find considering the mission's nature - but there has been a precedent in history it seems.

Go under the section The King of Kings and look for the defeat of the roman legions.

Excerpt:
Tigran knew that he had the support of the Army, especially the Armenian Cavalry, that was fiercely loyal to Tigran. It is interesting to note here that Plutarch considered the entry of the Roman general into Greater Armenia a military blunder, since the highlanders were prepared to fight to the death, shoulder to shoulder -- with the regular Imperial Army -- from their impregnable highlands . He wrote "He [Lucullus] seemed to be making a reckless attack, and one admitted on no saving calculation, upon warlike nations, countless thousands of horsemen, and a boundless region surrounded by deep rivers and mountains covered with perpetual snow."

Mission 4 coming up in a bit, decided to post this now...
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Offline StratComm

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Some more research into FS2's vast depths....
The :v: story guys knew their history and mythology quite well.  Mission names aren't the likliest places for the casual gamer to see it, but it's sort of a mark of absolute completeness.  The names all have some meaning, even going back to FS1.  (Silent threat being the obvious exception, as it is to all things Freespace).  I'm glad people are realizing that, but it really isn't a relevation.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Singh

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Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
The :v: story guys knew their history and mythology quite well.  Mission names aren't the likliest places for the casual gamer to see it, but it's sort of a mark of absolute completeness.  The names all have some meaning, even going back to FS1.  (Silent threat being the obvious exception, as it is to all things Freespace).  I'm glad people are realizing that, but it really isn't a relevation.


Well, that clearly evident the deeper I go into this.

Pish tho...should I bother continuing then, since its apperantly no mystery :/
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Offline StratComm

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Some more research into FS2's vast depths....
Go ahead.  It'll be interesting research for you and having it documented somewhere is definitely a plus.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Singh

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Well, better continue then.

Mission 4: A Lion at the door

This one is...odd, to say the least. The most common reference in the poem "A Man of words and not deeds" and seems out of place, yet oddly in it at the same time.

I did find a second reference to the Genesis chapters 4 and 5 of the bible, but the links were dead. If anyone has a copy of the bible can read through and maybe find the reference, it would be appreciated.

http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/poems/poem013.htm


A man of words and not of deeds
Is like a garden full of weeds;
And when the weeds begin to grow,
It's like a garden full of snow;
And when the snow begins to fall,
It's like a bird upon the wall;
And when the bird away does fly,
It's like an eagle in the sky;
And when the sky begins to roar,
It's like a lion at the door;
And when the door begins to crack,
It's like a stick across your back;
And when your back begins to smart,
It's like a penknife in your heart;
And when your heart begins to bleed,
You're dead, you're dead, and dead indeed.
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Offline Singh

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Some more research into FS2's vast depths....
Mission 5: The Mystery of the Trinity

This one is a tough one. The only reference I can find are those related to religious texts.

Directly off wikipedia:
"modalists attempted to resolve the mystery of the Trinity by holding that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are merely modes, roles, or manifestations of God Almighty. This anti-trinitarian view contend that the three "Persons" are not distinct individuals, but titles which describe how humanity has interacted with or had experiences with God. In the Role of The Father, God is the provider and creator of all. In the mode of The Son, man experiences God in the flesh, as a human, fully man and fully God. God manifests Himself as the Holy Spirit by his actions on Earth and within the lives of Christians. This view is known as Sabellianism, and was rejected as heresy by the Ecumenical Councils although it is still prevalent today among denominations known as "Oneness" and "Apostolic" Pentecostal Christians, the largest of these sects being the United Pentecostal Church. Trinitarianism insists that the Father, Son and Spirit simultaneously exist, each fully the same God."

Tihs is far-fetched, and hardly related to the mission at all, so there is a good chance this was not the basis of the mission. More than likely, I suspect it was related to the legend of The Mary Celeste which was found with nobody onboard. However, there might be a connection with the a/m passage, in terms of viewing the three races as the three entities...although which would be which is a significant question (senior = Bosch, Junior = GTC Trinity/Aurthur Roemig, ghost = Shivans?).
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"Cursed be the FREDder that trusts FRED2_Open."
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Offline Singh

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Mission 6: The Great Hunt

This, compared to the previous one, is relatively easy and straightforward. References to history or mythology are quite not found, but its roots lie rather in literature. We have such as The second book of the wheel of time or another poem, with the same title

I suspect there is something deeper to this, but a rudimentary google search has turned up nothing.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2005, 12:34:26 am by 1259 »
"Blessed be the FREDder that knows his sexps."
"Cursed be the FREDder that trusts FRED2_Open."
Dreamed of much, accomplished little. :(

 

Offline Singh

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edit: correction, what I posted it does not make much of a connection with this mission, but more of the next one.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2005, 12:42:02 am by 1259 »
"Blessed be the FREDder that knows his sexps."
"Cursed be the FREDder that trusts FRED2_Open."
Dreamed of much, accomplished little. :(

 

Offline StratComm

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Some more research into FS2's vast depths....
Don't forget to take in to account the actual contents of the missions, because the missions (and things like ship names, etc) and the titles are inescapably linked, especially through the first half of the game.  The Iceni ties in closely to the Roman's Blunder, as has been discussed before.  You'll see this too with "The Sixth Wonder" pretty explicitly.  You'll also find that, while most of the missions when you fight NTF refer to Roman/Greek history, almost all of the Shivan ones are of biblical significance.  You started to get to this with "A lion at the door" but the significance ties deeper than that most of the time.  And it's here that the tie goes back to FS1, with mission names like "Playing Judas", "Doomsday", "Exodus".  In fact there are other signs that :v: intended to tie Shivans to Christian beliefs (class names nephilim, seraphim, Cain, Lilith, Lucifer (duh); ship names Eva (Eve), cruisers Cain and Abel, the destroyer Beast in FS2, the list goes on and on) that are actually quite obvious.  In part, it's because they are denoted as evils in Christian beliefs, but that's not exclusive on all of those instances.  Why, now that's another question and one that we may have ultimately learned in FS3.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Singh

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Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
Don't forget to take in to account the actual contents of the missions, because the missions (and things like ship names, etc) and the titles are inescapably linked, especially through the first half of the game.  The Iceni ties in closely to the Roman's Blunder, as has been discussed before.  You'll see this too with "The Sixth Wonder" pretty explicitly.  You'll also find that, while most of the missions when you fight NTF refer to Roman/Greek history, almost all of the Shivan ones are of biblical significance.  You started to get to this with "A lion at the door" but the significance ties deeper than that most of the time.  And it's here that the tie goes back to FS1, with mission names like "Playing Judas", "Doomsday", "Exodus".  In fact there are other signs that :v: intended to tie Shivans to Christian beliefs (class names nephilim, seraphim, Cain, Lilith, Lucifer (duh); ship names Eva (Eve), cruisers Cain and Abel, the destroyer Beast in FS2, the list goes on and on) that are actually quite obvious.  In part, it's because they are denoted as evils in Christian beliefs, but that's not exclusive on all of those instances.  Why, now that's another question and one that we may have ultimately learned in FS3.


Hmmm....have already done so and this is getting interesting. But I think it does have a certain connection with Hindu mythology as well. After all, a significant number of the ships and wings were named after hindu gods. This is also somewhat present in FS2 - especially in Slaying Ravana, which I'll post about now.
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Offline StratComm

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Yes, but in Freespace it's pretty clearly stated that their ships are given designations based on Hindu mythology.  It's the fact that close to half of their fleet (and all significant mission names) in FS1 and a significant portion in FS2 are actually biblical that I find interesting.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Singh

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Names are one things, events are another. As I said, I don't doubt there is a deep, underlying basis in Christian mythology and the bible, however from what I feel, the events of the bible wasn't the only things it was based upon.

Besides, having never read the bible, I wouldn't be able to give that much of an opinion or information if it were only based on that :p
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Offline Singh

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Mission 7: Slaying Ravana

now this is somewhat surprising. This mission, when going by Hindu mythology, not only has a connection with the previous mission, but a limited connection with the next one as well.

First article, read towards the bottom

Article

Here is the excerpt, close to the bottom of the first article, relating to the previous mission and the mission itself.

During the exile, Sita was abducted by the demon king Ravana. Rama hunt out Ravana with the help of the monkey king Sugreeva and his commander Hanuman. A fierce battle ensued and Ravana was finally defeated. Rama triumphantly returned to Ayodhya with Sita after fourteen years' of exile.

Another very, very interesting peace of mythology which strikes very familiar with the mission itself (albiet for the names) is this one:

The demoness Surpanakha, sister of the demon king Ravana, becomes enamored of the handsome Rama and tries to seduce him during his stay in the jungle. Rama, renowned for his practice of  (Click link for more info and facts about Ekapatnivrata) Ekapatnivrata, the vow to practice unassailable loyalty to one's wife, is unresponsive. But Rama's brother Lakshmana, infuriated by Surpanaka's act of willful lasciviousness, cuts off her nose. Surpanakha runs home crying to her brother Ravana. To avenge his sister's loss of nose, Ravana uses the demon  (Click link for more info and facts about Maricha) Maricha to lure Rama and Lakshmana away, leaving Sita unguarded. At her moment of vulnerability, Ravana abducts Sita in his airborne vehicle, the  (Click link for more info and facts about Pushpaka Vimana) Pushpaka Vimana.


Now, this doesnt seem very connected, so I went and did a search on the names Actium and Lysander

Actium happens to be a place with a rather interesting history of being lost to a larger enemy. Of interest is this paragraph:

"Actium belonged originally to the Corinthian colonists of Anactorium, who probably founded the worship of Apollo Actius and the Actia games; in the 3rd century B.C. it fell to the Acarnanians, who subsequently held their synods there. Actium is chiefly famous as the site of Caesar Augustus' decisive victory over Mark Antony (September 2 31 B.C.). This battle ended a long series of ineffectual operations. The final conflict was provoked by Antony, who is said to have been persuaded by Cleopatra VII to retire to Egypt and give battle to mask his retreat; but lack of provisions and the growing demoralization of his army would sufficiently account for his decision."

Lysander, as it stands, is a Spartan General. More information can be found http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/people/a/lysander.htmhere but I doubt its connected in the way I wished.

However, then I read this:
Linky

Ravana wants to kidnap  (Wife of the Hindu god Rama; regarded as an ideal of womanhood) Sita and so asks for Maricha's help, who then turns himself into a golden deer. The golden lusture of the deer lures Sita so much that she wishes to have the deer for herself. So she asks Rama to get it for her. Rama orders  (Click link for more info and facts about Lakshmana) Lakshmana to take care of Sita while he goes for hunting the deer.

Rama succeeds in hunting down the deer after a long chase, but on its dying breath the deer shouts 'Sita Save me, Lakshamana Save me' mimicking Rama's voice. Sita falls prey to the trap and asks Lakshmana to go on a search for Rama. But Lakshmana says that no one can harm Rama. Sita, still very much worried, implores Lakshmana to go. Then follows the famous story of the  (Click link for more info and facts about Lakshman Rekha) Lakshman Rekha.

The connection is there, and is somewhat apperant, but its also somewhat far-fetched and abstract.

However, its connection with the events of the next mission are somewhat apperant. A quote from this article

"The Moolavar is Perarulaalan seen in standing posture facing east.  The Utsavar is Hemarangar, Semponrangar.  Lord Rama to atone the sin of slaying Ravana, stayed for four days in a golden cow on the advice of Thrdanethra rishi.  He then gave it as dhaanam to a brahmin, who used the gold to construct this temple and hence the name semponseikoil (sempon-pure gold)."

Something on a grand scale, similar to the sixth wonger, although its purpose is not exactly what I was looking for...

more specultion to come later - have work to do now.
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Offline karajorma

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Some more research into FS2's vast depths....
Someone at V really knows their history I'll agree :) Keep up the research Singh if you're enjoying it cause it does make interesting reading :)
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Offline mikhael

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One of the writers took more than programming college. *GASP* ;)
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Offline Nuclear1

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Some more research into FS2's vast depths....
Excellent work so far, Singh. :yes: I was always impressed by how the titles of the missions reflected some aspect of history or mythology (since I'm just that sort of nut).

Quote
Don't forget to take in to account the actual contents of the missions


Exactly. Especially take into account Mission 2, and then look up the source of the Iceni and Boadicea's names.

The Biblical references are obvious, including the references to Etamnaki, Babel, and the apocalypse. With the exception of the Lucifer and Sathanas, nearly all of the Shivan ships seemed to have some Eastern/Hindu influences behind them: Shaitan, Llith, Rakshasa, Ravana, etc. Sathanas and Lucifer seem to be more connecting with a Biblical Satan, which seems out of place among the Hindu references.

Anyway, keep it up. This is great reading.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
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Offline StratComm

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Demon is pretty religion-neutral, but I disagree when you say that all of the Shivan ships are Hindu.  Cain certainly isn't.  Lilith actually is rooted in Judeo-Christian beliefs though I can't tell how firmly.  Plus, there are the two bombers that are named for castes of angels (ok, so Nephilim are fallen angels).
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline FireCrack

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Kings Gambit, Sicilian Defence, and Endgame are all absed on chess.
actualy, mabye not.
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3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944 59230781640628620899862803482534211706...
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Singh
Mission 5: The Mystery of the Trinity

This one is a tough one. The only reference I can find are those related to religious texts.

Directly off wikipedia:
"modalists attempted to resolve the mystery of the Trinity by holding that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are merely modes, roles, or manifestations of God Almighty. This anti-trinitarian view contend that the three "Persons" are not distinct individuals, but titles which describe how humanity has interacted with or had experiences with God. In the Role of The Father, God is the provider and creator of all. In the mode of The Son, man experiences God in the flesh, as a human, fully man and fully God. God manifests Himself as the Holy Spirit by his actions on Earth and within the lives of Christians. This view is known as Sabellianism, and was rejected as heresy by the Ecumenical Councils although it is still prevalent today among denominations known as "Oneness" and "Apostolic" Pentecostal Christians, the largest of these sects being the United Pentecostal Church. Trinitarianism insists that the Father, Son and Spirit simultaneously exist, each fully the same God."

Tihs is far-fetched, and hardly related to the mission at all, so there is a good chance this was not the basis of the mission. More than likely, I suspect it was related to the legend of The Mary Celeste which was found with nobody onboard. However, there might be a connection with the a/m passage, in terms of viewing the three races as the three entities...although which would be which is a significant question (senior = Bosch, Junior = GTC Trinity/Aurthur Roemig, ghost = Shivans?).


Or;

Ghost = Past = Sol, TV War
Father = the GTI rebellion & Bosch - leading to the NTF and the birth of...
Son = Future = Shivan alliance(?)

Perhaps.

[q]In part, it's because they are denoted as evils in Christian beliefs, but that's not exclusive on all of those instances. Why, now that's another question and one that we may have ultimately learned in FS3.[/q]

Worth noting FS2' subtitle was to be 'Exodus' (before it was cut altogether).  Whose Exodus is the interesting thing.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Worth noting FS2' subtitle was to be 'Exodus' (before it was cut altogether).  Whose Exodus is the interesting thing.

It could just be a reference to the Capella evacuation, but I think the idea of it referring to Bosch's journey into the nebula would be much more meaningful.  I'll never accept that he ended up as a Shivan guinea pig; he had far too much import to the story to be written off like that.