Poll

Would you like the mouse to behave like a joystick as a permanent feature in FSO?

Yes, is more efficient and I don't need the keypad anymore and I can use my other hand to control the ship better.
3 (9.7%)
Yes, but I'd like this as an option, not as a permanent feature.
21 (67.7%)
No, I use mouse scripts to use it like a joystick, so others can use the mouse the way it is now.
1 (3.2%)
No, I like to use both mouse and keypad.
6 (19.4%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 01, 2012, 10:45:34 am

Author Topic: Using mouse as a joystick  (Read 11946 times)

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Offline technopredator

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Using mouse as a joystick
      I have played ACE online, a 3D space MMO shooter, I see the mouse is 100% efficient for flying, so is inheriting best for aiming, you have the option to see and arrow so you can see how much turning you're giving to the ship, you use your other hand to control buffs, left/right strafe ('A' & 'D') or go to minimum speed ('S'), this way you have perfect control over your ship. I think this could be the case of FSO, since now you need to leave the keypad/mouse to go use other controls on the keyboard.

      If the mouse behaves like a joystick you don't need the keypad anymore. You need keypad+mouse to have a perfect aiming, you only need the mouse if the mouse behaves like a joystick: you aim better, you fly and follow enemies better, and since you follow them better and don't go out of the HUD, you missiles will lock in lock-time, you won't need to switch between the keypad and other keys constantly anymore.

      If you have a better idea, I'm open to all suggestions.

      Don't forget to vote.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 03:11:35 pm by technopredator »

 

Offline Jeff Vader

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
K, one (1) active thread about a given subject kthxbai.
23:40 < achillion > EveningTea: ass
23:40 < achillion > wait no
23:40 < achillion > evilbagel: ass
23:40 < EveningTea > ?
23:40 < achillion > 2-letter tab complete failure

14:08 < achillion > there's too much talk of butts and dongs in here
14:08 < achillion > the level of discourse has really plummeted
14:08 < achillion > Let's talk about politics instead
14:08 <@The_E > butts and dongs are part of #hard-light's brand now
14:08 <@The_E > well
14:08 <@The_E > EvilBagel's brand, at least

01:06 < T-Rog > welp
01:07 < T-Rog > I've got to take some very strong antibiotics
01:07 < achillion > penis infection?
01:08 < T-Rog > Chlamydia
01:08 < achillion > O.o
01:09 < achillion > well
01:09 < achillion > I guess that happens
01:09 < T-Rog > at least it's curable
01:09 < achillion > yeah
01:10 < T-Rog > I take it you weren't actually expecting it to be a penis infection
01:10 < achillion > I was not

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15:41 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
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15:51 < Achillion> yes
15:53 <-INFO > EveningTea [Mibb[email protected]] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]

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11:46 <-INFO > Kobrar [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
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11:51 < Kobrar> ...
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
This is actually his first sane reasonable thread on the topic, it can stay open.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Okay, time for a response from a coder.

From a technical POV, implementing something like this should be possible. As the mouse script proves, this can be worked into FSO at some point.

However.

All of this hinges on finding a coder to do it. Us coders are rather busy people, and I am not aware of anyone working on something like this. But we are, obviously, aware of this issue; and sooner or later, someone's going to do it. It's just that we (or rather, I) can't give any estimates on when it might happen. Raising this issue is a good way of making sure it's not forgotten.

At any rate, any new way of interpreting mouse movement must be strictly optional. Because there are a few people (me among them) who are quite happy with FS' default control scheme, and who would be very angry if the control scheme suddenly got changed for everyone.
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Offline Sushi

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
It would be nice to have this as a native feature, but we'll need more control over the FSO interface before we can make it a selectable option. Honestly, that's the hard part: the logic to actually implement it isn't too bad (see the mouse script). Integrating it neatly into FSO is where it gets tricky. Like E said, it'll get done eventually, I just don't think it's a priority for any of the coders ATM.

 

Offline technopredator

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
This would have been a perfect reply to my OP in my first thread:

Quote from: mjn.mixael
Yeah.. dude, I've no problem with seeing this feature implemented. Personally, I like how the mouse works right now.. but I know some people don't.

The problem here is your tone. You are harsh, threatening and rude. You are insulting to the admins as well, most of which have made significant contributions to FSO. Just tone it down a bit. Treat us politely and we'll be far more willing to work with you.

Okay, time for a response from a coder.

From a technical POV, implementing something like this should be possible. As the mouse script proves, this can be worked into FSO at some point.

However.

All of this hinges on finding a coder to do it. Us coders are rather busy people, and I am not aware of anyone working on something like this. But we are, obviously, aware of this issue; and sooner or later, someone's going to do it. It's just that we (or rather, I) can't give any estimates on when it might happen. Raising this issue is a good way of making sure it's not forgotten.

At any rate, any new way of interpreting mouse movement must be strictly optional. Because there are a few people (me among them) who are quite happy with FS' default control scheme, and who would be very angry if the control scheme suddenly got changed for everyone.

Is all I needed to know.

 I'm reasonable but I made clear I was pissed off, so you could have taken this more into account before flaming me and behave like jerks to me. In my OP in my first thread I wasn't going against anyone at all, I was just venting my frustration, you didn't have to go an antagonize like it was directed to somebody. If I was against anything, it was the mouse control, not people, nor the devs or the modders, I was just writing in frustration that I couldn't believe nobody did anything about it; that, was before I knew about the mouse scripts, so they actually did something about it.

@Jeff Vader: I don't think I'm the owner of the truth or what is right, nobody is, the truth has no owner so I can be with it or without it, in this case my POV was with it: mouse behaving like a joystick is more efficient than current mouse functionality+ keypad.

I'm reasonable but I was extremely angry, but you're right, I need to tone it down and I'll try not to be harsh, threatening nor rude.

I'm not a native English speaker, I'm from Bolivia.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 01:31:59 pm by technopredator »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
And everyone lived happily ever after!

Anyway you can fly totally pro awesome with the keyboard only. keyboards represent

 

Offline technopredator

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Anyway you can fly totally pro awesome with the keyboard only.

I'd love to see an Youtube video of you being pro awsome on keyboard only, any links?

Many years ago I played keyboard only and it was a a PITA until I mastered but it was always difficult to find the target and maneuver off enemies, also hits % was always 15-20% max. That's why I always played in 'medium' setting, 'hard' was impossible for me.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 04:39:24 pm by technopredator »

 

Offline Sushi

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
I think it's time we had some
Ultimate team deathmatch
Battle of the input methods

to answer this once and for all! :p

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Anyway you can fly totally pro awesome with the keyboard only.

I'd love to see an Youtube video of you being pro awsome on keyboard only, any links?

Many years ago I played keyboard only and it was a a PITA until I mastered but it was always difficult to find the target and maneuver off enemies, also hits % was always 15-20% max. That's why I always played in 'medium' setting, 'hard' was impossible for me.

QuantumDelta was one of the greatest pilots on SquadWar back in the day; he and other top-ranked SquadWar pilots went keyboard. I was never active during the SquadWar days, but we play multi against each other using keyboard, mouse, or joystick and all three types of player do fine - the input method just isn't that important (although keyboard has a slight edge in turning.)

I've finished both FS1 and FS2 on Insane with keyboard, no problem. It's easily the best control method as far as I'm concerne.

 

Offline technopredator

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
QuantumDelta was one of the greatest pilots on SquadWar back in the day; he and other top-ranked SquadWar pilots went keyboard. I was never active during the SquadWar days, but we play multi against each other using keyboard, mouse, or joystick and all three types of player do fine - the input method just isn't that important (although keyboard has a slight edge in turning.)

I've finished both FS1 and FS2 on Insane with keyboard, no problem. It's easily the best control method as far as I'm concerne.

I'll check ouy the video.

If the game was no problem for you on 'insane' setting, you never FRAPed any of your pro awesome missions? how come? it'd be valuable lessons for us who find that the keyboard is by far the worst input method for FS.

Can you tell me how you did on FreeSpace Port - Enter The Dragon (Mission 17)? As the author of the video shows, is a really tough mission specially with keyboard.

Update: I checked the video and the guy was great at looping but as always keyboard fails to follow the targets, what this guy did was to anticipate the movements and move the ship to an interception point, with mouse as a joystick he would have killed them much faster and with less effort, in short, with more efficiency. Where he was shooting a lot were when the target was right in front or not moving much. As you can see, not even one of the best keyboard pilots can follow a target well.

Update 2: This guy uses a kind of joystick on some of his videos.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 11:03:19 am by technopredator »

 
Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Enter the dragon is a biznitch, because you have to line up on the subsystem with awkward weapon points.
The keyboard is a pita to get used to after you've used lazymans controls, but honestly the mouse just isn't a good dogfight option.

The only time you see me use something other than a keyboard is when I swap to the mouse, this is normally for precise/long range aiming.

Honestly, the mouse is a pin-point control system, excellent at sniping, and other command and control functions, it is by far the most accurate and scary to fight against in anything other than a 1on1.
The joystick with proper throttle management can out turn a kb, and can almost match mouse for aiming, but it takes a lot of practise, and either some re-congifuration (on modern joysticks) or basically a MS Prec Pro.

The keyboard is the best default turner, and the quickest for reactions, apart from fully mastered joys, it's the best in a dogfight.

The mouse style you are talking about is terribly slow to react at dogfighting at high speed, it severly weakens the mouses potential.

Also, you should check my latest videos, against WoDs Cordi fighters, most of the time I'm too lazy to fully focus, but you can see several instances where I do, and land shots while in full turn, which is a talent you learn to absorb unless you use the mouse.

My honest advice, is higher sensativity, and higher DPI. The mouse is fine.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Update: I checked the video and the guy was great at looping but as always keyboard fails to follow the targets, what this guy did was to anticipate the movements and move the ship to an interception point, with mouse as a joystick he would have killed them much faster and with less effort, in short, with more efficiency. Where he was shooting a lot were when the target was right in front or not moving much. As you can see, not even one of the best keyboard pilots can follow a target well.

If this were true then keyboard pilots wouldn't perform so well, but I (a perfectly fine keyboard pilot) can follow a target well and routinely place near or at the top in multi; you're just talking ****.

You've got your answer to the question, now lay off.

 

Offline JGZinv

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Figuring I had an account in ACE for a while, I can see what you're asking for, Tachyon had the same thing
as a alternative control mode for mice. Freelancer was very similar too. Personally I really don't like it due to the
inaccuracy, but I've seen at least a few people that mastered it and they can wipe me all over the virtual floor space.

I use a trackball mouse + KB. It saves having to move your arm all over and it makes for snap turns with
good accuracy. My weakness is not having as many controls within easy reach.

The main point I'm trying to get at is that each person, depending on natural ability, settings, and what hardware they are aided by,
can be "better" than another player. There is no single end all be all "best" control method.

Unless I'm heavily mistaken, I'm fairly sure there's been some mouse scripts made toward getting Freelancery mouse control.
Might look into that line of searching....
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Offline Shade

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
Dear god I sucked in that video Battuta linked. I hope I was half asleep at the time or something, because I like to think I'm better than that :p
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Offline technopredator

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
@QuantumDelta: I mostly disagree with you. I have finished FS1 twice on 'medium' on keyboard only, I was OK on dogfight but never precise, I even made the loop thing you did in your videos, maybe is just me not good at keyboard. I played with joystick too and was much better, I was playing FS1 on 'hard' this time when I broke 2 joysticks and then I stopped playing.

As a long time ACE Online player I can say first hand the mouse is better than joystick and by far than keyboard on a dogfight on that game, that's why you just don't have keyboard controls. The mouse in FS doesn't work as a joystick so, is not a fair comparison to a FS keyboard performance.

Mouse is best because you slide the mouse in the direction you want and for me is easy to be precise and follow targets very close, with a keyboard you have fine tune your following with lots of keystrokes on the key pad constantly.

 The mouse is not a lazy man's device, is just a device that is, by its nature, more efficient than the keyboard, if it works like a fine tuned joystick, like in ACE online not like in FS. Why don't you play ACE online so you can see what I'm talking about? Of course the turning in ACE depends on your engine, a good one would be 130ยบ+ at level 7X+, would take you like 1 week to get there, is not much, considering it takes months to get to level 9X+, the level top is 110.

I wrote that you used joystick because of how you handled the throttle in one of your videos, I think was called "Lost hope part 2"

You wrote yourself, you need a mouse for precision, keyboard might have best turning but you need a lot of practice and keystrokes to achieve the level of precision and easy aiming a fine tuned mouse working as a joystick, I know this as I have demonstrated, and you or anyone else won't convince me other wise.

@General Battuta: OK, you're being impolite so I'll be impolite too: No, I'm not talking ****, YOU ARE, I have described why a fine tuned mouse working as a joystick can beat a keyboard and you come here an insult me and threaten me. Keyboard players perform well because it has high sensitivity on turning and with a lot of practice and keystrokes you get a good player (precise), that doesn't mean is more efficient let alone easier to use than a fine tuned mouse working as a joystick. Is not either fault, is just the way they work.

And you conveniently skipped paragraphs, people do that when they're afraid of losing. So if you're another coward moderator and don't have what it takes to discuss something and you'll ban who ever tries to contradict you, then fine, ban me then, don't forget to flame to be the perfect coward.

@JGZinv You're right, the natural ability also is a factor in performance and of course the personal choice for an input device, I prefer efficiency, little investment high output, hence the mouse as a joystick.

I have this script: Script - Scripted Mouse which sucks, is far from fine tuned, if you have a good one please link it.

PS: I made some corrections, those small mistakes changed the entire meaning of some paragraphs.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 08:56:57 pm by technopredator »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
I find it admirable how you can manage to have me nodding in agreement in one paragraph and then laughing in delight the next.

I look forward to hearing more about how one can 'win' and 'lose' in a debate about how to fly your video game spaceship. Please continue.

 

Offline technopredator

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
I find it admirable how you can manage to have me nodding in agreement in one paragraph and then laughing in delight the next.

I look forward to hearing more about how one can 'win' and 'lose' in a debate about how to fly your video game spaceship. Please continue.

At least I give arguments, you just go, I'm right, because I'm a mod, now stop or I'll ban you, pfffffffft, check your six pilot, before checking mine...

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
I find it admirable how you can manage to have me nodding in agreement in one paragraph and then laughing in delight the next.

I look forward to hearing more about how one can 'win' and 'lose' in a debate about how to fly your video game spaceship. Please continue.

At least I give arguments, you just go, I'm right, because I'm a mod, now stop or I'll ban you, pfffffffft, check your six pilot, before checking mine...

You know, taking advice (if you keep acting like a jerk you'll probably get banned) as a threat (if you keep acting like a jerk I'll ban you) is stupid, but it's doubly stupid when global mods can't even ban people.

How about instead of jumping to conclusions, you keep working on being a sane and productive forum member? You did a good job with this thread after two failed attempts, I'm sure you'll continue to improve.

 

Offline KyadCK

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Re: Using mouse as a joystick
not often i post, but figure here is worth it...

your constant argument is that mouse as joystick is better then all others for various reasons, but there is a point of highlight, to quote part of one of your posts: "Mouse is best because you slide the mouse in the direction you want and for me"

those last two words are what i find to be the most important, mouse-joy works best FOR YOU

I personally use joystick and before that i used a joystick/throttle combo, I find it effective and they dont break on me (hell, I still got my old SideWinder 3D Pro), while switching off to the mouse for the occasional maxim sniping on a demon from 2k away where i need pixel by pixel precision... while i have never found keyboard usefull for me, I don't find mouse flying any better, joystick is my preference and I fly best that way. to each their own weapon and all that, no input device will ever 100% top anything else in every way

regardless, you were heard and your idea considered, what more could you want?
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