[Mobius]

Pearl Harbor made the US join WW II, kill hundreds of thousands of Japanese, Germans and Italians and we are all happy they did it, because China and Australia aren't a Japanese province, and Europe isn't a Nazi state today (being born in Poland, I'm VERY thankful that the US joined the war).
The WoT, although looks bad in the media, cost us (from day 1 untill today) the men and resources that would be used in...
5-6 weeks in the Western Europe front alone.
It's just that a news report about US soldiers taking pictures or playing soccer with Iraqi kids doesn't make a sensation.

That sentence is far from being beautiful...

This statement isn't 100% valid. The US would have entered the war, Pearl Harbour or not. The "Italy/Poland would have been a German province" thing doesn't work. Germany had virtually no chance of invading the US. The UK "survived" just because it's an island. The USA would have win the war. The original borders would have been restablished either after the armistice or during the advance.

As for Italy, they surrendered before the Allies invaded them, not like they were great allies to begin with.

Uhm...:

1) The Allies didn't "invade" Italy. They liberated it. Only Mussolini's fanatics(a handful)thought they were invaders. The others treated them like liberators(they were, in fact, liberators).  Even Mafia supported the Allies

2) The second part is true. Absolutely true. Italian "equipment" wasn't even comparable to German, American or English equipment. Mussolini's fanatics overwhelmed the Allies with the numbers, but were easily dispatched because of the lack of equipment. The whole Alliance was badly managed, Hitler hated Italians(he was Austrian...) and I don't know why that ***** of Mussolini decided to become Hitler's *****. Italians were like Shivans. Sacrificable. They have been treated more as baits than Allies. What a stupid Alliance. Fortunately, the Resistance got rid of Benito.

Back on topic...the USA can survive without Allies. I don't criticize Bush and I consider most accuses the result of a "parroting" more than the result of thinking. "Bush is idiot", says A. "Bush is a ****** idiot!", say B, C, D, E [...] Z-5182. He demonstrated that there's someone with balls around. A pacifist President would bring more problems.

[Kosh]

Then your doubt would be misplaced.

And yes, Carter was largely responsible for the Shah's overthrow.

Proof?

2) The second part is true. Absolutely true. Italian "equipment" wasn't even comparable to German, American or English equipment. Mussolini's fanatics overwhelmed the Allies with the numbers, but were easily dispatched because of the lack of equipment. The whole Alliance was badly managed, Hitler hated Italians(he was Austrian...) and I don't know why that ***** of Mussolini decided to become Hitler's *****. Italians were like Shivans. Sacrificable.

Not just that, the fact that they exhausted their army by invading Ethiopia before the war even started didn't help them either.

I don't criticize Bush and I consider most accuses the result of a "parroting" more than the result of thinking.

So pointing out the incompetant bumbling during Katrina, the corruption and mismanagement in Iraq (not to mention the dubious claims for us being there to begin with), and vetoing a bi-partisan bill to extend SCHIP (which provides healthcare to extremely poor children) is "parroting"?   


EDIT: forgot to reply to this part

[spartan_0214]

This humble Republican has one question:

1.) What, exactly, has Congress done since the re-elections nearly, what,  NINE months ago?

[Kosh]

The same thing they did before the election: Rubber stamp whatever Bush wanted. 

[jr2]

Don't be ridiculous.  They rubber-stamped what Bush knew he could get them to rubber-stamp, namely, 1/2 of what they should have done. 

[StarSlayer]

Yeah i pretty much thought the US declaration movement on Turkey was pretty stupid.  Basically because singling out Turkey out seemed pretty lame.  Unless we are going to roll out every act of brutality and genocide then it seems hypocritical.  Nearly every European nation has a hell of a lot of skeletons in the closet from the days of their dominance and imperialism.  Unless they are going to pull out the Belgian Congo, India, China, the Conquistadors  and every other misadventure in human history it seems moot.  "We have the Maxim Gun and they have not" isn't as funny as it sounds and "The sun never sets on the British Empire" didn't happen because they were nice about it.  But to be fair we've only had a couple hundred years to screw up and they have thousands:p.   Not to mention our own black marks.  If you ever want to get sick to your stomach try reading about the genocide of the North American Tribes, The Earth Shall Weep is a good place to start.  It's rather brutal to realize that we succeeded at what the Third Reich tried to accomplish in Russia.  Not to mention we still suppress the American Indian because when we quarantined the tribes on the crappiest land we could find we didn't realize later down the road they had important natural resources.  I am not saying we should suppress history, and i am not trying to single anyone out as "the greatest offender" (people shouldn't be blamed for the sins of the father).  But officially going after Turkey for something that happened under the Ottoman Empire is foolish when our history and those of our closest allies(even when they don't like us much) are littered with the half buried examples of humanity at its worst.

[jr2]

Name one country that doesn't have examples of humanity at its worst in its (not so distant) history.  Oh.  None.  Riiight.  We know this... welcome to (fallen ) planet Earth.

[Ghostavo]

Name one country that doesn't have examples of humanity at its worst in its (not so distant) history.

Switzerland?

[karajorma]

Stealing gold from Jews who were sent to the concentration camps and refusing to give it back to the few survivors doesn't count in your books then?

[Mobius]

Name one country that doesn't have examples of humanity at its worst in its (not so distant) history.

Switzerland?

A country of this planet, so no Switzerland!

Stealing gold from Jews who were sent to the concentration camps and refusing to give it back to the few survivors doesn't count in your books then?

Azz... 

Not just that, the fact that they exhausted their army by invading Ethiopia before the war even started didn't help them either.

Sounds new to me(it doesn't mean you're not right)

So pointing out the incompetant bumbling during Katrina, the corruption and mismanagement in Iraq (not to mention the dubious claims for us being there to begin with), and vetoing a bi-partisan bill to extend SCHIP (which provides healthcare to extremely poor children) is "parroting"?   

It is a fact that most accusers simply "copy and paste" things the others say. It happens everywhere. People who barely know the name "Derek Smart" say "Derek Smart is *****, ***** and *****". Something similar happens with Bush. When people act like parrots, their opinions lose sense and validity.

[Ghostavo]

Stealing gold from Jews who were sent to the concentration camps and refusing to give it back to the few survivors doesn't count in your books then?

Sweden then?

[karajorma]

Yeah, cause the vikings were famed for sailing across the North Sea to help people keep warm on the cold winter nights, relieve them from the tension of hoarding gold and help women with their problems conceiving.

[TrashMan]

Name one country that doesn't have examples of humanity at its worst in its (not so distant) history.

Croatia?

[Ghostavo]

Yeah, cause the vikings were famed for sailing across the North Sea to help people keep warm on the cold winter nights, relieve them from the tension of hoarding gold and help women with their problems conceiving.

Well, that's not so recent...  

What has Iceland done while we're at it?

[karajorma]

Move Vikings

[Col. Fishguts]

Stealing gold from Jews who were sent to the concentration camps and refusing to give it back to the few survivors doesn't count in your books then?

You rang ?

Yup, we have our own dark chapters of history during WW2.  Not to mention the centuries before when swiss people were mostly known as  mercenaries throughout Europe, spreading havoc wherever the pay was best.

[Mobius]

Name one country that doesn't have examples of humanity at its worst in its (not so distant) history.

Croatia?

You forget the massacre of thousands of Italians who lived near the borders, so no Croatia

[karajorma]

Croatia?

Given that Croatia actually gave the world the term Ethnic Cleansing and is responsible for the genocide of somewhere between 300,000 and 1.7 million Serbs during WWII I'd say that they're one of the countries least able to claim to be blood free.

[TrashMan]

Croatia?

You forget the massacre of thousands of Italians who lived near the borders, so no Croatia

Technicly, that wasn't the Croatian state, but rather Yugoslavia. Governemnt and military was under serbian control, commies ya know.

And IIRC, we are talking about governemnt sanctioned killings - like attacking another country and planned genocide, right?
Not abunch of drunk, stoopid folls comitting a war crime or something back in the woods.

[TrashMan]

Croatia?

Given that Croatia actually gave the world the term Ethnic Cleansing and is responsible for the genocide of somewhere between 300,000 and 1.7 million Serbs during WWII I'd say that they're one of the countries least able to claim to be blood free.

Lies.Bloody lies.
1.7 million serbs during WW2???? Heck, there even werent that many Serbs then to begin with.
There was only one event like that,  if I'm not mistaken and the total number of dead wasn't over 30,000.

Croatia has nothing to do with ethnic cleansing.
In fact, it one of the very few countries that forged it's kingdom and expanded wihtout war. In it's whole history (over 1400 years) Croatia has never attacked another country.