[karajorma]

There is one rather obvious question that I've not seen an answer to from the people who think that the knossos is a lock.

Who the hell locked it?

The Ancients were already dead. Their homeworld was gone. Somehow I doubt they could have gotten near enough to the Shivans to lock the portal and even if they did what would it achieve? Their world was dead. And even if they did lock it why didn't the Shivans unlock it? They use the other knossos portals quite happily and they're the masters of subspace. Hell why didn't they just blow it up?

[Mustang19]

If you want to be technical:

- 1 Knossos device in Gamma Draconis
- Presumably, 1 Knossos device on the other end that the GTVA arrived into the nebula through
- 1 Knossos encountered on the mission the Psamtik was destroyed
- 2 Knossoses in Into the Lion's Den, with (presumably) 1 more on the other end that the Sathanases arrived from

Total: 6. It depends on whether you're talking about a Knossos "corridor" or the individual devices. But yes, Snipes does refer to "Knossos Device Number 3", implying 3 "devices", whatever you take that to mean.

[Hades]

If you want to be technical:

- 1 Knossos device in Gamma Draconis
- Presumably, 1 Knossos device on the other end that the GTVA arrived into the nebula through
- 1 Knossos encountered on the mission the Psamtik was destroyed
- 2 Knossoses in Into the Lion's Den, with (presumably) 1 more on the other end that the Sathanases arrived from

Total: 6. It depends on whether you're talking about a Knossos "corridor" or the individual devices. But yes, Snipes does refer to "Knossos Device Number 3", implying 3 "devices", whatever you take that to mean.

Number 1.If There was another Knossos on the other side of Draconis, The Nebula Then You would have seen it.But when you trasporting those freighters Theres a portal NOT a Knossos.Number 2.He said, "We Found Knossos Number 3".

[Polpolion]

If you want to be technical:

- 1 Knossos device in Gamma Draconis
- Presumably, 1 Knossos device on the other end that the GTVA arrived into the nebula through
- 1 Knossos encountered on the mission the Psamtik was destroyed
- 2 Knossoses in Into the Lion's Den, with (presumably) 1 more on the other end that the Sathanases arrived from

IIRC you don't need one on the other side. If you noticed on that one escort mission with the lucidity, no Knossos. in Into the Lions Den, no other Knossos. So canonically, you only need one Knossos to save a node. Otherwise we'd be screwed in getting back to earth.


EDIT: woop, hades wins.

[Bob-san]

I don't see very much evidence in FS2 saying that the Knossos works as a stabilizer. Other then the fact that you have to activate it to use it, everything else I've seen (from the side we have seen Knossos at) suggests to me that the Knossos is a destabilizer. We have seen numerous Knossos nodes...

Gamma Draconis to The Nebula--the Knossos is on the known Gamma Draconis side and the Shivans, while obviously active in that segment of the nebula, haven't traversed the node until after the Trinity does
The Nebula to The Binary System--the Knossos is now in the Nebula. This time, it's seen as a likely source of the Shivans--perhaps the path from the Shivan core systems to the Ancients core systems
The Binary System to ?? system--the Knossos is in the Binary System. The node has no known destination and thus has never been studied.

A few other things to consider... we have only seen Knossos devices from and beyond Gamma Draconis. We know the Ancients were on Altair and that they held HUNDREDS of systems in more then one galaxy. Looking at the official node map, there is generally three or more stable nodes in every system--that seems fairly typical to me, as 3+ is necessary to make a "web" map of nodes. If the case is that most/all systems have 3-4 stable jump nodes at a time, then it seems that quite a few far-out systems are lacking in nodes. If nodes were from the far side of the known node, it's likely that there is a very good reason for it.

Everything here leads me to believe that the Knossos devices were constructed to prevent the Shivans from continuing the advance.

[Mustang19]

There is one rather obvious question that I've not seen an answer to from the people who think that the knossos is a lock.

Who the hell locked it?

The Ancients were already dead. Their homeworld was gone. Somehow I doubt they could have gotten near enough to the Shivans to lock the portal and even if they did what would it achieve? Their world was dead. And even if they did lock it why didn't the Shivans unlock it? They use the other knossos portals quite happily and they're the masters of subspace. Hell why didn't they just blow it up?

The Ancient homeworld is described as being "near to Vasuda". So it probably had not yet been destroyed, and they may have been able to lock it before the Shivans arrived. How did the Shivans arrive, then? The same way they came to Ross 128. The simple and obvious answer is that the thing had just been sitting idle for so long that it shut off. Batteries, anyone?

IIRC you don't need one on the other side. If you noticed on that one escort mission with the lucidity, no Knossos. in Into the Lions Den, no other Knossos. So canonically, you only need one Knossos to save a node. Otherwise we'd be screwed in getting back to earth.


EDIT: woop, hades wins.

I don't remember the briefing, but are you sure that the Lucidity arrived straight from Gamma Draconis?

In the Lion's Den, the Sathanases arrive through the distant Knossos (apparently, you can't really infer what's happening because the SJD model is used kind of sloppily, but they arrive near it). In the mission where you blow the Gamma Draconis Knossos, the first Sathanas arrives through the Knossos. The only mission where I don't think a ship arrives through a node is Into the Lion's Den, but I don't remember. In all other cases, capships seem to need to arrive within a portal.

If There was another Knossos on the other side of Draconis, The Nebula Then You would have seen it.

Not necessarily.

He said, "We Found Knossos Number 3".

You're sure?

[Sir T]

In all cases there was only 1 Knosses on a node corridor. This allowed entry from both nodes. The player always saw the one on the side facing earth, but that was not necessary.

That was the gamma draconis node the one in the nebula, and one in in the lions den

I'm gonna be replaying the campain soon so I'll be aple to confirm it. but people can just extract the mission using VP tools or something and have a look at it in FRED to stop the arguments about it.

[karajorma]

I don't see very much evidence in FS2 saying that the Knossos works as a stabilizer.

From our odyssey into Hell, we return with a gift: the Ancient technology to build a portal between Delta Serpentis and Sol. To restore our link to planet Earth. To return home after all these years.

Do I really need to say any more?

SOME STUFF

At 3320 Vasudan Galactic Time, we received a distress signal from the  GTD Aquitaine. The destroyer came under attack 4,000 meters from the Gamma Draconis jump node. The SC Urobach and its fighter escort incapacitated the Aquitaine's engines and fighterbay.

He said, "We Found Knossos Number 3".

You're sure?

This just keeps getting better. Another juggernaut has jumped in from Knossos 3.

[TrashMan]

I don't see very much evidence in FS2 saying that the Knossos works as a stabilizer. Other then the fact that you have to activate it to use it, everything else I've seen (from the side we have seen Knossos at) suggests to me that the Knossos is a destabilizer. We have seen numerous Knossos nodes...

Check the command briefing - listen to what Petrach and dr. Hargrowe say.


The field generated by the interlocking movement of the portal's components creates a subspace vortex, connecting one part of the universe to another.Dr. Hargrove theorizes that whoever built this device may have used it to stabilize a jump node on the verge of collapse.

If Dr. Hargrove is correct, this technology is a tremendous discovery.

A Way Home?

By constructing our own portal, we might be able to reopen the Sol jump node in Delta Serpentis. Since the destruction of the Lucifer caused the node to collapse thirty-two years ago, Earth has remained isolated from the GTVA.

We might also be able to stabilize subspace nodes that are currently too volatile for travel, thus creating routes to systems previously unexplored.

Gamma Draconis to The Nebula--the Knossos is on the known Gamma Draconis side and the Shivans, while obviously active in that segment of the nebula, haven't traversed the node until after the Trinity does

Of course..It was the Trinity that activated the Knossos. It wasn't active untill then and the node to GD was untraversable..

A few other things to consider... we have only seen Knossos devices from and beyond Gamma Draconis. We know the Ancients were on Altair and that they held HUNDREDS of systems in more then one galaxy. Looking at the official node map, there is generally three or more stable nodes in every system--that seems fairly typical to me, as 3+ is necessary to make a "web" map of nodes. If the case is that most/all systems have 3-4 stable jump nodes at a time, then it seems that quite a few far-out systems are lacking in nodes. If nodes were from the far side of the known node, it's likely that there is a very good reason for it.

If there allready are stable nodes there's no need for a Knossos. Shivans might have destroyed some knossos portals, or maby even the ancients themselves..

[Shade]

Quote
He said, "We Found Knossos Number 3".

You're sure?

What? Do I look Shivan to you? Uh-oh. Take a look at this. Knossos device number three. 150 clicks out in right field. Where the hell are we?

That should clear that up.

Everything here leads me to believe that the Knossos devices were constructed to prevent the Shivans from continuing the advance.

As for that, why spend two years or however long it takes to build such a massively huge technological marvel while your species is facing imminent extinction, when you can just spend one week collecting a massive amount of explosives? Destroying a jump node is trivial compared to building something like a Knossos. And if you end up needing it later, then you can go to the trouble of building a Knossos - Helped by the fact that you won't have Shivans breathing down your neck while you're at it. Afterall, we have canon evidence that regardless of any speculation that they could be used as destabilizers, they can definitely be used for the opposite.

[BrotherBryon]

I think the ancients used the Knossos portals to explore and expand their empire. They built them to stabilize unstable nodes as they traveled further away from their home systems and that is why they are always on the side of the subspace corridor closest to the GTVA systems. Also the time and material cost alone would suggest that the portals were in place before they encountered the Shivans. These portals were also most likely what drew the Shivan's attention in the first place (Being born from subspace as they are) and they followed the portals back to the ancients' home systems and annihilated them for it.

[S-99]

It's pretty clear that bosch's agenda was plundering old ancient historical sites. From there he learned about the knossos and activated it. Because in gamma draconis the terrans sent a probe to gamma draconis 15 years ago and found nothing (because the knossos wasn't on), and when the knossos was activated by bosch then the gtva found it after shivans were pooring through.

[Stormkeeper]

I'm mildly amused the newbie question about the Knossos sparked this debate. And yeah, knossoss number 3. I just played that mission.

If the Ancients did indeed use the Knossos devices to seal off the nodes, wouldn't we see more nodes closer to Vasudan space, keeping in mind the fact that the Ancients' core systems probably consist of what is now Vasudan space? Granted, the Shivans could've destroyed them, or taken control of them. Regardless, the canon information we have only lists the Knossos portal as a stabilizer, not as a lock or a tool to destabilize subspace.

[Flipside]

I don't see the Knossos as a 'lock' type device, had it expended energy to ensure that the jump node it surrounded didn't open, I'd be more accepting of the idea, the Knossos, however, used it's power to hold the node open, which strongly suggests that they are access mechanisms, not security ones.

[Snail]

If the Ancients did indeed use the Knossos devices to seal off the nodes, wouldn't we see more nodes closer to Vasudan space, keeping in mind the fact that the Ancients' core systems probably consist of what is now Vasudan space?

The nodes to the main systems were most likely completely stable, needing no further stabilization. The outer nodes, at Gamma Drax, were probably unstable, needing stabilization.

[Flipside]

I must admit, when I first saw the Knossos, I thought it was some kind of subspace 'Drill', which could bore open a node at a weak point in Subspace, and wondered whether part of the reason the Shivan attacked the ancients is because they did this.

[colecampbell666]

I think the ancients used the Knossos portals to explore and expand their empire. They built them to stabilize unstable nodes as they traveled further away from their home systems and that is why they are always on the side of the subspace corridor closest to the GTVA systems. Also the time and material cost alone would suggest that the portals were in place before they encountered the Shivans. These portals were also most likely what drew the Shivan's attention in the first place (Being born from subspace as they are) and they followed the portals back to the ancients' home systems and annihilated them for it.

I agree.

I think that GTVA space is a small bubble, surrounded on all sides by Shivans. and if the Ancient homeworld was off of Ross 128, then it would be presumably in Formaulhaut. Either that, or the Shivans watch our movements and show up accordingly. We see no permanent Shivan bases, which makes me think that the bases we do see, mainly cargo depots, are temporary affairs. I think that if we found the Shivan home system we would see massive shipyards, and Uber-Juggernaughts as far as the eye could see.

I think that Derelict and Inferno should be counted as cannon, as they are the largest and most complex mods, that best continue the FS storyline, IMO.

The Lucifer fleet was probably a rogue fleet, I think.

I think that the reason that Shivan ships get bigger in each encounter is because ships travel at different speeds, in or out of subspace (play Homesick). The Ancients probably encountered The Lucy because that was all that was needed to destroy them.

[Dark Hunter]

I don't believe Formalhaut is a canon system...

Nor do I agree that any user-made campaigns should be counted as canon. As much as I enjoy Derelict and Inferno, they are fanon and shall always remain so, no matter how good the storyline and mission design.

Someone else mentioned Shivans "being born from subspace". Once again: specualtion. That is not canon.


Ok, on another topic: why would the Lucy fleet be rogue? In my opinion, the Shivans sent it to wipe out the Vasudans and Terrans, believing it would be enough. When they saw us next, during the Nebular conflict, they took us a bit more seriously, using more powerful and advanced equipment.

I do agree with most installations we've seen being temporary affairs... but I don't believe T-V space is surrounded on all sides by Shivans. Apparently, we are quite far away from any of their home systems, otherwise I think we'd've seen a more permanent base of some sort. I'll also point out that all Shivan attacks have been from the (for lack of a better term) "east" side of the nodemap. If they completely encircled us, they likely would have attacked from all sides right from the start, and we'd have been finished.

[Vasudan Commander]

I'm not sure what  the terrans hoped to gain by sending a wing of maras through the 2nd knossos portal in the nebula. That missions was kinda freaky.

I've always wondered; whats beyond that 3rd Knossos?

And what are those 'Shivan Comm Nodes' for?

[Stormkeeper]

Actually, the comm nodes could mean that the Shivan homeworld, or at least, nearest Shivan Installation (shudder. Imagine hitting a Shivan Installation) is of enough distance that the comm nodes are needed for reliable communications. It could also mean that Shivan comm tech is inferior to Terran and Vasudan tech.

Beyond the 3rd Knossos portal? Its anybody's guess. More shivans, definitely. Shivan Installation? Possible. Shivan planet, also possible. Shivan civillans, also possible. Like I said, anybody's guess.