[Mars]

And then there's the fact that if there are still beams remaining, the Colossus leaves it to the single wing of bombers to destroy them, despite having the fighter wing of 2-3 destroyers.

[Mongoose]

The Colossus overcharged her beams, slagged her heat sinks on every major weapons system and blew her backup power system completely.

She definitely needed a refit after that.

The problem is that the mission doesn't reliably create a situation where this kind of exigency-driven at-all-costs engagement was necessary. If the Sath comes into High Noon with no beams, or if you disable them all very quickly, the Colossus' urgency just comes off as comedy.

The personal justification I've come up with to hand-wave that is that Command was extremely concerned that the Sathanas might just bug out of the area, possibly in an untraceable manner, and pop up again fully repaired somewhere else, with the best chance to defeat it having been lost.  Command had a defanged Sathanas sitting right in front of them, possibly for only a short while, and they needed it gone yesterday.  The Colossus's beam arrays were a small price to pay in order to ensure that.  Your mileage on how well this explanation works may vary, though.

Of course this would then beg the question as to why the Sathanas didn't take the chance to jump out when it could, but that applies to pretty much every capship encounter across both retail campaigns.

[karajorma]

Which does beg the question, is it possible / has anyone successfully taken out all of the Sathanas' engines in Bearbaiting?

[fightermedic]

Maybe this is a good place to anounce that I'm working on a complete overhaul of FS1, STR and FS2 as one big package, with some added weapons and ships, new flight physics, changed loadout, improved AI, and all sorts of other "fixes"
I'm not sure how many people will take any real interest in such a thing, but it's being done
The overhaul as such is pretty much complete, and I'm starting to rework the missions as of now, so stay tuned

[InsaneBaron]

I would strongly advise against this. While I'm a fan of ST:R, I don't see remaking FS1 or FS2 as going nearly as well, or a number of reasons.

1. Demand. Silent Threat was so bad it NEEDED a remake. By contrast, the mission quality of the retail campaigns (esp. FS2) is generally the benchmark of what makes a respectable user-made campaign (Derelict or Warzone, for example). It's only with Blue Planet and Vassago's Dirge that "Retail Quality" has been left in the dust, and unless you want to bring FS2 to War in Heaven's level, you'd basically by reinventing the wheel. Look at Bearbaiting, one of the most exciting missions in history, to counterbalance High Noon. High Noon is only boring if you had an epic run on Bearbaiting.

In terms of story: ya, there are glips, like the CB for Playing Judas. But like Battuta pointed out, the overall quality of the plot is powerful- that's why we're here today!

2. Scale: FS2, counting normal missions, SOC loops, and training missions, all of which would need to be rebuilt, is more than twice the length of the REMADE ST:R. And that's before increasing the mission count as part of the remake process. Take the number of years it took ST:R to be finished, multiply by three, and you're getting into Blackwater operations territory. Seriously, in terms of mission count, this could be one of the longest campaigns in history.

3. Significance. ST:R kept the "disruption" of canon to a minimum because not a lot of campaigns (good ones, at least) depended on ST to the point where they would conflict with ST:R. That's not the case with FS1 and FS2, where the very things people here want to change are often important questions in user-made campaigns, like the node inconsistencies and the lack of beams and flak on FS1-era Shivan ships (which is also critical for balance). Redoing the main campaigns would be an alteration to the very foundation of HLP and its work.

4. Symbolically, if we attempt to rewrite and rescript Volition's own core campaigns, we're basically severing the link with Volition- like a branch cutting the tree down. If we do this, we remove the very idea of Canon as something established by Volition that we must comply with to call our campaigns "compatible". We would be claiming the right, as a community, to rewrite FS canon as we saw fit. I think the refusal to do that was the reason HLP has refused to make a FreeSpace 3.

Maybe this is a good place to anounce that I'm working on a complete overhaul of FS1, STR and FS2 as one big package, with some added weapons and ships, new flight physics, changed loadout, improved AI, and all sorts of other "fixes"
I'm not sure how many people will take any real interest in such a thing, but it's being done
The overhaul as such is pretty much complete, and I'm starting to rework the missions as of now, so stay tuned

What?

[General Battuta]

It sounds like fightermedic is doing a big gameplay remix, which wouldn't touch the story. Sounds like a laudable project to me.

[InsaneBaron]

Ok, that makes sense. Something like Fury's AI upgrades, applied to physics and loadouts? That does seem like a valuable project that a number of campaigns could take advantage of.

[Lorric]

Maybe this is a good place to anounce that I'm working on a complete overhaul of FS1, STR and FS2 as one big package, with some added weapons and ships, new flight physics, changed loadout, improved AI, and all sorts of other "fixes"
I'm not sure how many people will take any real interest in such a thing, but it's being done
The overhaul as such is pretty much complete, and I'm starting to rework the missions as of now, so stay tuned

You kept that one quiet, didn't you.

How long have you been working on it?

[Phantom Hoover]

It sounds like fightermedic is doing a big gameplay remix, which wouldn't touch the story. Sounds like a laudable project to me.

Aye, something like "FreeSpace 2: Master Quest" could definitely work.

[Megawolf492]

2. Scale: FS2, counting normal missions, SOC loops, and training missions, all of which would need to be rebuilt.......

.......the very things people here want to change are often important questions in user-made campaigns, like the node inconsistencies and the lack of beams and flak on FS1-era Shivan ships (which is also critical for balance).......

4. Symbolically, if we attempt to rewrite and rescript Volition's own core campaigns.......

I do not believe that a complete overhaul of the entire campaign(s) is needed or what is being promoted here (unlike ST:R). Sure, if you introduce beams and flak, then most of the FS1 missions would need at least a little tweaking. But I believe that there are many (much better) solutions to this problem than just adding them back to FS1. Most of the node inconsistencies wouldn't affect the gameplay of the missions involved. The only major situation I remember is in Tenderizer where the Galatea jumps in and then out of the same node (presumably to/from different systems). According to  , nodes are a 1-1 deal.

The main issue that I think people want more ships fighting on each side.  had to figure that most people didn't have great computers back then (even by 1990's standards). Too many ships flying around and people can't play it. That's why they invented the SJD Sathanas. Today we really don't have that issue. So maybe we add a few more ships to each side. You would have to keep balance, sure, and that would take some time. But we don't have to do it all at once. Maybe we fix the missions that really bug us (like High Noon) first and then "upgrade" other missions as we see fit. That doesn't mean that we are better than  or want to usurp their role or story writing. The original games will still be just that. We upgraded the engine and graphics because we have better computers; why can't we do the same for the gameplay?

[General Battuta]

Speaking from a lot of experience with FreeSpace 2 tactical work, I'm not convinced adding more ships, even as spectacle, will do much. Adding more fighters tends to create swingy battles that end very rapidly. Adding more warships scattered about can be pretty cool and interesting, but then you wonder why Command never mentions them...

Since Fury AI dropped we've gotten a lot of mileage out of making ships smarter, not more numerous. Might be an avenue to pursue.

ALSO ho ho ho I just remembered that one of my favorite pieces of canon, the FreeSpace 2 demo, has two missions that I remember quite liking! They even have voice work.

[Lorric]

There's the What If - Another Great War campaign, which is essentially a remake of FS1. Missions tweaked so they range from being anywhere from slightly different to their FS1 counterparts to original missions, and the Shivans have beams and the GTVA have flak. I can't remember how far in I got, but I got a good way in. I think I might play it again. Right now. I remember enjoying it.

EDIT:

This one:

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=56156.0

[fightermedic]

Maybe this is a good place to anounce that I'm working on a complete overhaul of FS1, STR and FS2 as one big package, with some added weapons and ships, new flight physics, changed loadout, improved AI, and all sorts of other "fixes"
I'm not sure how many people will take any real interest in such a thing, but it's being done
The overhaul as such is pretty much complete, and I'm starting to rework the missions as of now, so stay tuned

You kept that one quiet, didn't you.

How long have you been working on it?

i've started a general overhaul of all the ships and weapons after the lightning marshall release, but didn't have the plan to rework the vanilla campaigns until maybe 4 months back
since i've had like no free time the last months, i've only rebalanced the first three fs1 missions so far

let me tell you one thing people:
balancing missions with enemy fighters that suffer no penalties compared to the player and have better ai is a nightmare if the player ship is unshielded

[Lorric]

Maybe this is a good place to anounce that I'm working on a complete overhaul of FS1, STR and FS2 as one big package, with some added weapons and ships, new flight physics, changed loadout, improved AI, and all sorts of other "fixes"
I'm not sure how many people will take any real interest in such a thing, but it's being done
The overhaul as such is pretty much complete, and I'm starting to rework the missions as of now, so stay tuned

You kept that one quiet, didn't you.

How long have you been working on it?

i've started a general overhaul of all the ships and weapons after the lightning marshall release, but didn't have the plan to rework the vanilla campaigns until maybe 4 months back
since i've had like no free time the last months, i've only rebalanced the first three fs1 missions so far

let me tell you one thing people:
balancing missions with enemy fighters that suffer no penalties compared ot the player and have better ai is a nightmare if the player ship is unshielded

No free time aside from pumping out those lego-based ships.

I have very limited experience with the new AI (I've only faced it in 2 missions) but I would have thought shields would be even harder, what with the AI's shield management. The Shivans should have an advantage over the GTVA now with that shield management and their thick shields. Good luck stopping those bombers from reaching their targets...

I hope you get lots of free time since you seem to get lots of Freespace related things done.

[InsaneBaron]

Quote from: InsaneBaron on December 26, 2013, 11:07:38 am


    2. Scale: FS2, counting normal missions, SOC loops, and training missions, all of which would need to be rebuilt.......

    .......the very things people here want to change are often important questions in user-made campaigns, like the node inconsistencies and the lack of beams and flak on FS1-era Shivan ships (which is also critical for balance).......

    4. Symbolically, if we attempt to rewrite and rescript Volition's own core campaigns.......


I do not believe that a complete overhaul of the entire campaign(s) is needed or what is being promoted here (unlike ST:R). Sure, if you introduce beams and flak, then most of the FS1 missions would need at least a little tweaking. But I believe that there are many (much better) solutions to this problem than just adding them back to FS1. Most of the node inconsistencies wouldn't affect the gameplay of the missions involved. The only major situation I remember is in Tenderizer where the Galatea jumps in and then out of the same node (presumably to/from different systems). According to  , nodes are a 1-1 deal.

The main issue that I think people want more ships fighting on each side.  had to figure that most people didn't have great computers back then (even by 1990's standards). Too many ships flying around and people can't play it. That's why they invented the SJD Sathanas. Today we really don't have that issue. So maybe we add a few more ships to each side. You would have to keep balance, sure, and that would take some time. But we don't have to do it all at once. Maybe we fix the missions that really bug us (like High Noon) first and then "upgrade" other missions as we see fit. That doesn't mean that we are better than  or want to usurp their role or story writing. The original games will still be just that. We upgraded the engine and graphics because we have better computers; why can't we do the same for the gameplay?

I should probably have been clearer: I'm not opposed to fightermedic's project or to "What If?" alternate continuity campaigns. "Grizzly Bearbaiting" and things like that are fine in their place. A lot of different things have been advocated here. What I'm trying to advise against is making a ST:R-style remake of FS1 and FS2. ST:R is more than just an "alternate continuity" thing, it's an actual attempt to replace Silent Threat. Battuta's Guide to finding your first (or next!) campaign, to which new players are often directed, states that there's no reason to play Silent Threat when you can play ST:R. And I agree on that point (mostly). But doing something like that to the core campaigns would be going too far.

Whether or not a project crosses that line depends on a number of factors, including how it's advertised and perceived. "What If?" never claims to be a replacement or superior version of FS1- it's a "What If?" speculation fanfic. Fightermedic's project seems fine. As far as I can understand he's making a big upgrade package like Fury's AI upgrades, and then rebalancing canon missions to utilize it; as long as it doesn't expand into what I've warned against, it's a quite interesting idea; and considering that it uses drastically new core gameplay, I doubt it will expand in that way.

[mjn.mixael]

What I'm trying to advise against is making a ST:R-style remake of FS1 and FS2. ST:R is more than just an "alternate continuity" thing, it's an actual attempt to replace Silent Threat. Battuta's Guide to finding your first (or next!) campaign, to which new players are often directed, states that there's no reason to play Silent Threat when you can play ST:R. And I agree on that point (mostly). But doing something like that to the core campaigns would be going too far.

Honestly, I don't think there's a single person who has the chops to pull that off with FS1/FS2 anyway. There may be enough people to do a team like project, but I'm still skeptical. You need people who are passionate about the original story to recreate it without overfilling it. (ST:R had a lot of freedom here, because ST had almost no story) You need people who respect the nostalgia of the originals, and understand how tough that's going to be to reconcile with new features. They need to know when to use them and not just how. I know people will argue it, but it will need to be voice acted.. and it needs to be good. (This is another thing that ST:R did and helps it feel like a true replacement to ST. It's voice acted, with quality... it feels like a complete release right next to FS1/FS2). Voice Acting alone is enough of a nightmare to make most experienced modders shudder. I bet the BP WiH VA project can shed some light on the problems with trying to get good VA.

This idea pops up almost annually, and usually there are one or two people working on their versions of the remakes. I'm not saying don't try to do a remake. By all means, make your remakes.. it's interesting to see what people think FS1/FS2 should or could look like, but I am saying don't try to replace FS1/FS2... because it's probably not going to happen.

[General Battuta]

Honestly I don't think getting good VA for an FS2-sized script is an impossible challenge, as long as you're willing to settle for high-end amateurs. ST:R's voice cast came in about two notches below FS2's, which is a pretty good showing. But it'll still be a major effort requiring serious commitment.

e: the problem with BP2 is simply that the script is colossal, probably at least an order of magnitude bigger than FS2's, and even then if we'd had one single autonomous VA coordinator able to work on it full time since release it'd probably be done...but that itself is quite a trick.

[mjn.mixael]

e: the problem with BP2 is simply that the script is colossal, probably at least an order of magnitude bigger than FS2's, and even then if we'd had one single autonomous VA coordinator able to work on it full time since release it'd probably be done...but that itself is quite a trick.

Which is still precisely my point.

The amount of work required to do a proper FS1/FS2:R is pretty darned massive. VA + everything else.

[InsaneBaron]

I guess, then, that nobody is seriously planning a FS1/2:R- just things like Fightermedic's tune-up or "What If". I can rest easy.

That said, best of luck to fightermedic on your project!

[Megawolf492]

I guess, then, that nobody is seriously planning a FS1/2:R- just things like Fightermedic's tune-up or "What If". I can rest easy.

That said, best of luck to fightermedic on your project!

Yeah, if I ever would try to change FS1/2, I would start with the original campaign file and edit that, since I wouldn't be doing anything major. In FS1, I'd add squads like in FS2 and fix node inconsistencies (basically only changing the briefings). In FS2, I'd change the debrief for "Straight, No Chaser" so the Vasudan doesn't say that there are multiple Juggernauts in the nebula, leaving that for "Into the Lion's Den" for the player to find out.