[Su-tehp]

So I've got a question for you guys. Since my recent return to HLP, I'm slowly trying to get acclimated to Freespace modding in the hope that I might eventually finish my Devil and the Deep Blue campaign. To that end, if my story is going to involve the GTVA going on the offensive to the Shivan-held star systems, it occurred to me that I'm going to need to name those Shivan star systems. When I made my original map of Shivan space (or at least the small section of it that DatDB was going to take place in when I first conceived the story idea of DatDB), I just named that region of space as "Known Shivan Grid 1" and just labelled each star system as "KSS-001," "KSS-002" and so on (KSS stands for "Known Shivan System" in case you were wondering). Having just returned to HLP and DatDB, I'm now thinking that just using numbers to name the Shivan star systems is just a bit too lazy so I'm going for something different and I could use some help from anyone willing to contribute.

I've decided to name Shivan star systems after sinister places or figures from varied mythologies and literature, so long as they're "not too obscure" for Western audiences. And yes, I realize that definition is totally amorphous and near-meaningless and entirely subjective. Basically, you guys can come up with foreign words for "sinister" concepts in more archaic languages like Greek or Latin or for famous villain characters in any mythology of your choice and post your suggestions here and I'll make note of the ones I like best and will give them mentions as star systems involved in the story of DatDB.

Here's a partial list of what I came up with so far:
   Anthelios (for the binary system where Knossos 3 is located; it means “anti-sun” in Latin)
   Gehenna (a small valley near Jerusalem; in rabbinic literature, it's a place that is reserved for the damned; this is the name of the "local" Shivan HQ because I want to name the Shivan "homeworld" something else, assuming I even decide to have the Shivan "homeworld" in my story)
   Tartarus (the Greek prison of the Titans; sometimes referred to as “the place beyond hell”)
   Kaliban (the deformed man-creature from Shakespeare’s “The Tempest”)
   Sycorax (Kaliban’s mother who is mentioned but never seen in “The Tempest”)
   Ishtar (Babylonian goddess of love and war who released all fire and brimstone to kill Enkidu)
   Atrox (Latin for “cruel” and the root for “atrocity”)
   Janus (the Roman god of deceit)
   Tantibus (Latin for “nightmare”)
   Vanitas (Latin for “emptiness” or “futility”)
   Carcer (Latin for “prison”)
   Tenebris (Latin for “darkness”)
   Umbra (Latin for “shadow”)

This list has more than a few Latin and Greek words, to be sure, but I'm hoping for some words from non-Western mythologies from you guys. Feel free to use the above list as a source of inspiration for your own suggestions.

And if you have an entirely different naming convention for Shivan star systems, feel free to suggest that too.

EDIT: My other caveat is to ask you to try to limit your suggestions to three or four (maybe five at the most) syllables. Overly long unpronounceable words might be good for a gag, but I don't want to include anything that might detract from the Shivans' aura of menace.

[Nyctaeus]

TBH if they are stars, they should be named like stars. Majority of systems from both FS games are existing in the real world, and bear real-life names. Not each of them match their real-life equivalent, like Capella that in reallity is composed of 4 stars but is mentioned as singular "Capella star" in FS2. You can add those systems somekind of codenames, but I really doubt if anybody pick some dark name for a star system because there are shivans there. In my opinion everything should bear standard, astronomic names.

[Su-tehp]

TBH if they are stars, they should be named like stars. Majority of systems from both FS games are existing in the real world, and bear real-life names. Not each of them match their real-life equivalent, like Capella that in reallity is composed of 4 stars but is mentioned as singular "Capella star" in FS2. You can add those systems somekind of codenames, but I really doubt if anybody pick some dark name for a star system because there are shivans there. In my opinion everything should bear standard, astronomic names.

But what if we're dealing with an area of space so far away that the stars don't have names yet? Shivan space might not be limited to just our galaxy. With the Knossos portal technology, it's almost explicitly stated that the other side of the portal could lead to anywhere in the universe. If you emerge from a Knossos portal (or the jump node on the other side of a Knossos portal) into a completely unmapped/unexplored area of space that might very well be in a distant galaxy, how do you start classifying/naming the stars there? DatDB is specifically about the GTVA taking the battle to the Shivans, but who said Shivan-controlled space is limited to just the Milky Way galaxy? The Ancients' empire was said to encompass multiple galaxies. Wouldn't the Shivans' reach be even farther than that, especially with their ability to use unstable nodes that no one else could use?

For that matter, will you even be able to tell where Earth or even the Milky Way galaxy is from where you're at if you're that far away, and if so, how? (Anyone with experience in astronomy is welcome to answer this last question for real if possible.)

[Nightmare]

I think it's OK to give systems original names if they're in a different galaxy. The number of named stars in Andromeda (that made it into Wikipedia) is pretty short: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Andromeda_Galaxy

For my kinda-fanfic-like project I named the system where you run into a Shivan Dyson Grid "Devils Ground" as it seemed to me that none of the classic greek or latin names seemed fitting to me; but that is the only Shivan system and it's quite... special case.

[0rph3u5]

If you are going for a catabasis-theme, wikipedia has a handy list for you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underworld

[Nyctaeus]

If we were capable of taking photos of distant black holes in 2019 like we did with Powehi, we'll be able to make fully 3D maps of whole Galaxies by 2367. The AI will be fully implemented at this point, and will process countless petabytes of astronomical data. AI searching the sky for new celestial bodies, naming them and cathegorizing is a matter of not so-distant future. Optics is so far our biggest problem, but it won't be in 2367.

As the same point, majority of stars bear both astronomical names and traditional names while number of custom-named stars is also growing. I frequently take part in polls organized by IAU and contribute to picking custom names for stars and planets. The polls were not happening when FS was released, but presumbly by the 2367, all star systems canon to FS would be also custom-named.

So I suggest to keep traditional/astronomical names for stars, because military is likely to use such and this is convention used by Volition. At the same time custom names should exist and may appear in chatters and other less-official text.

[Nightmare]

Well the Binary System and the Nebula aren't identified at all so you could keep (atleast at the beginning) them nameless. It'd be more like "we reached a star in a different galaxy!".

[Colonol Dekker]

You could name them after engagements.  Ie- after the dominant resident shivan vessel?

[Nightmare]

Welcome to the Sathanas (ex-)system~

[0rph3u5]

Well the Binary System and the Nebula aren't identified at all so you could keep (atleast at the beginning) them nameless. It'd be more like "we reached a star in a different galaxy!".

Keeping the Nebula and the Binary System nameless served a very particular purpose in the context of FS2 narrative:

- As far as the Nebula is concerned its nameless-ness is part of what makes in an indeterminable element, onto which all principal actors of the story can project ambitions, goals and needs: For Bosch it is the desert he has to cross to "lead his people from Egypt" because of his messianic delusions. For the GTVA is both a ressource rich frontier to exploit and, more importantly, a proving ground for their military technology, which allows them to test themselves against adversity. As part of the FS2 conclusion it actually proves to be neither - both goals expose themselves to be unachievable: Bosch doesn't "lead his people" but abandons them because that's how a messianic dellusion plays out; and the GTVA has to accept just matching the Shivans technology ammounts to nothing as the Shivans are not military force.

- The Binary System being nameless has more to do with it being only transit point between where the Sathanas Fleet is coming from and where it is going; its an allusion to the fact that the Shivans' range and scale of action(s) is much larger than the GTVA's. As such not naming it makes it very much an "anywhere". It is further characterized as "just a piece of road" by the fact that is very much just Knossos 3 -> Nebula jump node, and its other points of interest being the unnamed communication nodes, another feature defined mostly by connecting two other unseen points.
The fact that it is binary star system could not be read as an identifiable feature but as an allusion to the only other time FS2 shows twinned stars: Bosch Monologue 2. Which is framed by the lines "I hear my enemies speculate about my motives, my ambitions." and "What my enemies will never understand is ...". Where as the cutscene actually gives us the answers straight from Bosch's mouth, the Shivans remain silent in face of the inquiry (remember this a recon mission which doesn't really provide new insights).

Both points actually no longer apply outside the context of FS2's story.

[Nyctaeus]

Huh, I dont buy galaxy-brain conspiracy theories about symbolism. Reminds me Goober's and Sesq's explanations for backgrounds in Scroll, while I and I guess lots of other people were just like "Huh? Black Hole system? Awesome!" when we first entered Marnakh.

I have simpler explanation: Nameless systems makes the feel of mystery and unknown deeper. And it works well. I remember when I entered Binary Star for the first time. Vibe of "wtf am I" was strong.

Besides it's probably impossible to extrapolate coordinates of Nebula system being inside, because no stars are visible. As for Binary Systems, I guess GTVA later figured out which stars this system actually is, but it happened after FS2... Or never, because Binary System is located so far away that it's astronomical surrounding is unknown for our star maps.

[Nightmare]

The fact that it is binary star system could not be read as an identifiable feature but as an allusion to the only other time FS2 shows twinned stars: Bosch Monologue 2. Which is framed by the lines "I hear my enemies speculate about my motives, my ambitions." and "What my enemies will never understand is ...". Where as the cutscene actually gives us the answers straight from Bosch's mouth, the Shivans remain silent in face of the inquiry (remember this a recon mission which doesn't really provide new insights).

I'd keep out the link between the monolog scene and the binary system, Bosch hasn't been there (atleast not in 1 piece).

[Nightmare]

Besides it's probably impossible to extrapolate coordinates of Nebula system being inside, because no stars are visible. As for Binary Systems, I guess GTVA later figured out which stars this system actually is, but it happened after FS2... Or never, because Binary System is located so far away that it's astronomical surrounding is unknown for our star maps.

The only thing ever stated about the distance is in the first nebula mission, "we probably travel farther than ever before in the history of subspace flight" or something. I'd generally support that, but OTOH it seems that GTVA knows some basics about the nebula (elseway Bosch wouldn't know about the supernova 8k years ago), just that it doesn't matter for the actual plot. Also, spamming the player with astronical details might be nice for nerds and people playing the game 20 years later, but it distracts from the actual story(telling).

[0rph3u5]

Symbolism is a matter of ambition, both in terms of writing it and finding it. I freely admit that I might be streching to find layers of connections because I aspire (and fail) to weaving such "effortless" symbolism.

Besides it's probably impossible to extrapolate coordinates of Nebula system being inside, because no stars are visible.

Well, if you just add a layer of explaination, which FS doesn't have because the rules of subspace are elastic on purpose, you could also extrapolate the location of the Nebula-Gamma Draconis Jump Node, or at the very least which nebula it is located in, through properties of the intersystem jump. All you have to do is to commit to a consistent set of properties for jump nodes and intersystem travel.

[Nightmare]

Assuming that Knossos nodes work the same way 8000 years later.

[Nyctaeus]

If I remember correctly, early terran government was surprised that the first stable jumpnode leads to Delta Serpentis instead of Beta Aquilae. This implies thet they had no means to estimate both distance and destination.

But apparently interstellar subspace corridor leaves no trace in normal space. No vector, no spacetime distortions, no nothing. Only entry point is detectable, and it's not easy to find.

Logically possible distance between Gamma Draconis and nebulae could be meansured by travel time, but for some reason it's also not happening. It may be impossible. Subspace is macroscale quantum phenomenon, so we can safely assume a certain dose of non-determinism is present in it's mechanics. Subspace nodes are constantly shifting. Some of them are stable for nanoseconds, so all existing nodes are probably also "vibrating". Their stability is constantly changing, but nodes classified as "stable" never leave stable compartment on stability gradient... So far. GTVA also don't know for how long they will last, but estimate thousands of years.

But this way, travel time changes every time you traverse the node, because stability affects travel time. Considering the fact that subspace nodes may be hundreds of AU long, even small shift on stability gradient means or can mean completely different measurement results.

I know I probably overanalize and "split **** into atoms", but GTVA may be actually unable to investigate which celestial objects Nebula and Binary Star really are. Still "mystery vibe" is simpler and more believable explanation then quantum woo.

[Nightmare]

While it might be somewhat confusing, I massively find it more interesting to have jump nodes appearing to be random. Don't know where the Beta aquilae vs Delta Serpentis quote is from, Alpha Centauri would be logical to have as the most proximous system, but subspace follows very special laws that can't be explained by 21st century logic while certainly having a logic behind them, what makes the whole franchise more interesting.

[Assassin714]

Very carefully.

[Nyctaeus]

Or subspace follows no certain laws and is perfectly random and non-deterministic.

Subspace may be based on some quantum particles that are somehow naturally shielded from background radiation. This background radiation still exist and affect our particles, but they naturally resist. They have "spectral mass", so they have no real physical mass but partially acts like mass-positive objects on similar principles to light. Vibrations of stability of jump nodes may be actually manifestation of this quantum objects actively resisting decoherence, and nodes may be based on spontanously happening quantum entanglement.

Or every node is unstable, partially stable and stable at the same time via Schrodinger's principles. Just manifestation in 3D space is shifting between countless states constantly, because they occur all at the same time.

Who knows. We need qualified quantum physicist.

[0rph3u5]

Still "mystery vibe" is simpler and more believable explanation then quantum woo.

Mysteries that are means unto themselves are tad banal, no?