Author Topic: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)  (Read 2663 times)

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Offline Thaeris

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Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
I thought to do this after deciding to playing through the main FS2 Campaign once more, this time upping the difficulty.

Unlike the other notable (and good) thread currently up on combat flight, "Advanced Dogfighting":

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,63714.0.html

...This thread shall instead focus on the employment of ordnance in terms of FS2. I'll try to reference the other thread as well. Please feel free to contribute as well; there's many here with much more flight/combat sim time than I have from a mere gaming perspective. Most of my experience is from realistic flight sims like the F/A-18 Hornet series.

Combat Interception of a Maneuvering Target:

I was having a few problems with "Mystery of the Trinity" for a brief time before I determined this approach:

For the mission you are assigned to the Herc Mk2. This is a wonderful fighter. It may not be the most maneuverable, but it's all you need. Properly handled, I'm confident in saying this fighter will be able to take on any adversary and win. Cannon placement is very close to ideal, with the impact position of the weapons being slightly over the certer of the recticle. Secondary banks are mounted above the pilot's viewpoint, but not by a great margin. With these factors in mind, the pilot can successfully employ the Herc as an interceptor, attack fighter, or space superiority craft. For this mission, you'll be acting as an interceptor and space superiority fighter.

If I'm not mistaken, the default loadout given to you is both primary banks loaded with Prometheus R cannon. This is acceptable if you feel you can make every shot count, but a mixed load of Subachs or Prometheus cannon (or both banks set with Subachs) is a better choice for this mission.

The secondaries given are a bank of Rockeyes and a bank of Tempests. Do yourself a favor and ditch the Rockeyes. 720 Tempest rockets are a much better idea...

The Prometheus R is often quoted as being a poor weapon, which it is. If tied to a bank of Subachs, it becomes potentially useful, but not by a great margin. Note that the weapon fires a projectile just as fast as the Subach. This is critical to note in a mission such as this because volume of fire is perhaps more important than absolute accuracy. This is why: In a mission like "Mystery of the Trinity," you are dealing with waves of maneuvering fightercraft... pehaps you can disregard the Basilisks to some extent with this in mind, but Manticores and the few seconds you have to spare fighting Dragons makes using only the Prometheus a poor choice. The prometheus is only really viable head-on in a situation like this, where its longer range is a boon. Any hits will sting more, but you'll get fewer in. If you want them to sting, accuracy is important. This will be hard to attain though...

Manticores and even more so, Dragons, will jink once fired upon. A slow ROF associated with an accuracy weapon is a bad idea versus a hard-to-hit ship that's faster than you and has rapidly recharging shields. Simply putting your sight on the lead indicator and firing will not do you terribly well. A high volume of fire in a relative area, however, is useful. In this fashion, jinking becomes less effective. A combination of Subachs and Prometheus is acceptable here, but two banks of Subachs is a better idea. If you're concerned about damage, here's where the Tempests come in...

Using the Hercules Mk 2:

Because of its lower pitch, yaw, and roll rates, speed is very important to the Herc. More precisely, control of speed. Due to weapons placement and its heavy armor and shields, the Herc is a good first-strike fighter. Make an effort to evade missiles as usual in a head-on encounter while also putting accurate-as-possible fire downrange. Any fighter committed to going forward is going to have to deal with you... This is where weapons like the Tempest make a great asset. The Tempest rocket fires at about 90m/sec slower than a Subach or Prometheus blast, but at shallow angles or close ranges that is not a great factor. I find Tempest fire is often superior to general missile fire when associated with attacks via primaries at short ranges. Fighters, bombers, and cruisers will writhe in pain from such a volley. If you want to kill a Dragon (or any other tough fighter target) fast, this is the way to do it. If shots are placed appropriately, you will deal enough damage that the target will not be able to react in time to avoid destruction.

Dogfighting with the Herc 2: In general, speed control and roll orientation are crucial to effectively fighting with the Herc. In this regard, secondary banks filled with Tempest rockets make it a nightmare adversary for whatever happens to be on the recieving end. Though slower than your primaries, note that the higher secondary banks automatically serve to give a "lead" to the rocket batteries. If the y-axis of the Herc is in line with the flight path path of the target and that target is turning and at short range, you should hit along with your primary fire. If you've ever played Cardinal Spear, think of the Hercules Mk 2 having the "Vulcan" as a secondary... except that instead this weapon is the Tempest. Once again, hit first! if you are in the area of where a formation jumps out, hammer it with rocket and cannon fire. If you can hit multiple targets, do it!

I'll add one last thing about the Rockeye: It's a poor choice against fighters. However, if you must use it, try swarming the fighter you're targeting with the missile in intervals. This will keep it on the run and you might have a slightly greater chance of hitting it with the Rockeye if you use the missile in this fashion. Due to its large size, this is not a good plan. Instead, use it for strikes against non maneuvering point targets. As it requires no aspect lock, it is not a bad choice against capitol ships at short range, particularly for taking out turrets. A high reload time also makes the missile useful in this purpose. If you can shoot something else, however, take that weapon instead.

-Thaeris
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 
Re: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
I'm not a big fan of the Herc Mk2, but there are a few things about it I like.


If you're going to dogfight in a Herc Mk2 then I find that it helps always roll so the inside of the opponent's turn is always above you. I like to do this with most other fighters as well, but the Herc Mk2 in particular really benefits from this orientation.

If your opponent is turning up and away from you then you can use the primary mounts on the Herc Mk2 to your advantage. The high weapon mounts on the Herc can slightly reduce the amount of lead you have to pull in order to hit your target, especially with those higher aspect shots.

It also presents the opposing ship with the most narrow possible view of the Herc MkII. Other fighters like the Myrmidon and the Perseus are easier to hit from above because they are wider, but the Herc Mk2 is harder to hit from above than it is from the sides because it's hull is so narrow.

 
Re: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
I prefer hard hitting shots (Kayser, Prometheus S) against dragons and fighters in general. Volume works fine on bombers and capitals largely due to its energy efficiency. You want something heavy to kill a dragon before it hulks out and starts zipping around everywhere. Chasing it down in that mode with a Subach is sheer futility; it takes too long and you'll have guys on your tail.

I just crank engines to max and start unloading the big guns and usually the dragon goes down before reserves run out.

 

Offline Thaeris

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Re: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
I prefer hard hitting shots (Kayser, Prometheus S) against dragons and fighters in general. Volume works fine on bombers and capitals largely due to its energy efficiency. You want something heavy to kill a dragon before it hulks out and starts zipping around everywhere. Chasing it down in that mode with a Subach is sheer futility; it takes too long and you'll have guys on your tail.

I just crank engines to max and start unloading the big guns and usually the dragon goes down before reserves run out.

That's the reference to using Tempests.  :rolleyes:

The primary reason I brought this particular point up is that in the first missions your weapons are really not that good. Anything hammered by a massive volley of Tempests is not going to last, though, and you do indeed get Tempests!

@Paul:

I think we're talking about the exact same thing, actually.  :yes:

-Thaeris
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 
Re: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
It's interesting to note that in "real battle", that is, human vs human furballs, the Rockeye is rather important.

 

Offline Thaeris

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Re: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
It's interesting to note that in "real battle", that is, human vs human furballs, the Rockeye is rather important.

That's a veiwpoint I've never heard before. Would you mind explaining your point?  :)

-Thaeris
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline IronBeer

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Re: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
Since we're talking about the Herc 2, I'll contribute by saying something that may be obvious: the Herc 2 works supremely well if employed as a missile spewer. The primary banks are on par with most fighters (that is to say, 2x double), but the secondary banks rival that of a bomber. Against other fighters, the best thing the Herc 2 can do is spam Harpoons, and possibly "sinpe" with Trebuchets at longer range.

Primary-wise, I've found a good combination is pretty much anything coupled with a bank of Subachs. Prometheus-R coupled with Subach is a decent anti-fighter weapon: Subachs work against the shield, and the Prom-R will nuke the hull once the shields are penetrated. Same logic with a Prom-S. But, if you have access to Kayser, then definitely pair that up. ;7

Regarding the importance of the Rockeye in PVP, I would assume that has to do with the fact that an aspect lock is not required, and a homing shot can simply be snapped off whenever a clean shot is found.
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Offline Stormkeeper

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Re: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
*snip*
Pretty much how I use my Herc 2; I make good use of its extensive missile banks, and use it something like a mini-missile cruiser, using mainly secondaries to bring them down. The Herc can't really handle dogfighting, because its turning capabilites are quite bad, though not as bad as the Ares.

Primaries I use are twin Subachs; They use minimal energy and are fair weapons when coupled with their quick recycle rate. Enough to scare off the AI, then finish with Harpoons or the like.
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Offline CP5670

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Re: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
The Herc II supports the Maxim but lacks a quad primary bank, so I use the Maxim/Tempest combination that I take with all such fighters.

It's interesting to note that in "real battle", that is, human vs human furballs, the Rockeye is rather important.

That's a veiwpoint I've never heard before. Would you mind explaining your point?  :)

He's right. Rockeyes are used almost exclusively in TvT games. Their slow speed means that they can sometimes keep tracking a target even after it evades them once. Harpoons and Tempests are reasonably effective as well, and everything else is pretty much useless.

The Rockeye is not good for much in singleplayer though, since it does poor damage for its size (in terms of how many you can carry) and AI fighters can't evade the other missiles anyway.

 
Re: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
Actually, the rockeye is frequently the longest ranged missile available, and is usable on interceptors and space superiority. You can unload a bunch of them really quickly to blast away capital turrets and subsystems. I've occasionally used a support ship half a dozen times and used this method to neutralize a cruiser.  :nod:

 

Offline IronBeer

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Re: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
Once, I was backed into a corner, so to speak, and alone against a Lilith. The two beam turrets had already been destroyed, but my Perseus (was it? not quite sure...) was massively damaged- like under 10% damaged.
Compounding the problem, my ship was fitted only with 2x Harpoons. Thankfully, all other resistance was dead, and I wanted that Lilith to go boom.
Strafing runs with lasers were out due to the chance of a lucky hit... unless the turrets were gone. Y'know, Harpoons really aren't that great against subsystems, but boy, are they accurate.
So, a few refills later, the Lilith was disarmed an totally helpless as I simply swaggered up close and ventilated its hull with primary fire.

What's the lesson here, kids? Persistence. Oh, and the importance of neutralizing any other hostiles if you're gonna pull a stunt like that.
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Offline Kolgena

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Re: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
Herc II is actually one of the better fighters in the game. It's got garbage speed and maneuverability, but if you've loaded your wingmen properly, then that's not an issue. The sheer firepower and armor on a Herc II really make them nice tanks (second to the Aries of course), and are great to pair with harassing craft like the Perseus.

Actually, if you get enough wingmen in a mission, and are skilled/lucky enough to get the AI to do what you actually want them to do, using mixed teams of fighters can be quite effective, instead of, say, giving everyone an Erinyes.

Myrmidons: Crap. Don't give wingmen this unless you want them to be Perseuses with more health.
Herc II/Aries: Tanks/meatshields. Try to get these to engage enemies first to draw fire. Herc II can dodge more stuff, but the Aries can take more hits.
Erinyes: DPS with engines. Movement and armor are average, but these things deal damage like nobody's business. If you're a C31 spammer, use these.
Perseus: Good harassment fighter, and useful for multiple roles. Have low HP, so try not to make these the focus of enemy fire.
Serapis: Basically good only as a Maxim platform, except the AI's too dump to save the maxim for unshielded targets. However, these are good harassment craft if they have heavier units to back them up.
Tauret: Mobile missile platform. Basically the Herc/Aries type fighter with less health and waaay more missile room.

Other vasudan craft I don't use much, so meh.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
Once, I was backed into a corner, so to speak, and alone against a Lilith. The two beam turrets had already been destroyed, but my Perseus (was it? not quite sure...) was massively damaged- like under 10% damaged.
Compounding the problem, my ship was fitted only with 2x Harpoons. Thankfully, all other resistance was dead, and I wanted that Lilith to go boom.
Strafing runs with lasers were out due to the chance of a lucky hit... unless the turrets were gone. Y'know, Harpoons really aren't that great against subsystems, but boy, are they accurate.
So, a few refills later, the Lilith was disarmed an totally helpless as I simply swaggered up close and ventilated its hull with primary fire.

Except blobs do nothing as long as your shields are up so I don't see why you'd need to avoid laser strafing runs - if you have the time to surgically remove every turret with harpoons, chances are you have the time to recharge your shields. It's not like the Lilith has flak guns, which is the real deterrent to strafing runs.
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Offline Thaeris

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Re: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
Well, no.

But Shivan turret lasers do move quite fast. This makes them harder to dodge. Thus killing those turrets was a very good idea.

As far as Erinyes suggestions go, I'm tempted to say no. It's mere circumstance, but in the main campaign every time enemy cruisers were present on the field the Erinyes wing ALWAYS faced heavy attrition. They're great for fighting off enemy fighters as heavy superiority fighters (kind of like Herc 2's, but a little better suited for the superiority role), but the AI just can't use them safely in a cruiser/beamfire environment. My wing of Hercs and the Perseus wing that arrived actually survived the most effectively.

-Thaeris
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline eliex

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Re: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
Well in FS1, even with shields Shivan turret lasers can pose somewhat of a threat being as you say, fast and rapid-firing unlike standard blobs.

Which difficulty do you normally play? Erinyes on Hard have to depend on their armour to compensate for their large side-on profile but have a mediocre survival rate when confronted with AA beams.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
In FS2 though, only ships with barely any shields like the Thoth and Serapis need to worry about Shivan Turret Lasers. Terran fighters generally have enough shields to not be too concerned.

Unless you're on hard/insane, then the lighter Terran fighters have something to worry about.
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Offline Kolgena

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Re: Slaying the Dragon - More Combat Flight Techniques (or attempts thereof)
Well, no.

But Shivan turret lasers do move quite fast. This makes them harder to dodge. Thus killing those turrets was a very good idea.

As far as Erinyes suggestions go, I'm tempted to say no. It's mere circumstance, but in the main campaign every time enemy cruisers were present on the field the Erinyes wing ALWAYS faced heavy attrition. They're great for fighting off enemy fighters as heavy superiority fighters (kind of like Herc 2's, but a little better suited for the superiority role), but the AI just can't use them safely in a cruiser/beamfire environment. My wing of Hercs and the Perseus wing that arrived actually survived the most effectively.

-Thaeris

I guess it's because Erinyes are only good in bursts. Sure, they have insane DPS, but it only lasts for so long. If they can't neutralize what's shooting them in a hurry, they either run out of energy and/or get torn to pieces. They seem to have pretty low armor for their target profile, which doesn't do them any favors. That's why they suck if you have too few fighters and too many cruisers to down. Also, because the AI gets distracted and starts to run around when they have AAAs pointed at them, Erinyes make very good beam fodder; they do evasive maneuvers, which is good, but just end up presenting their sides, which is bad. That's why the Herc II and Perseus outperform the Erinyes in sustained cruiser pummeling. The herc can survive a few hits of AAA, and the Perseus is fast enough to avoid flak and blobs if not the beams.