[MatthTheGeek]

My thought is, good luck opening away the whole Raynor's hull to change a random beam mount with something else that the reactor probably won't be able to sustain on top of the rest.

[crizza]

Have we actually seen the SBlues in action? If not, Darius is free to change them.

[Aesaar]

I've heard some say the SBlue is a bad beam and it would be better if it were replaced with an extra blue slashing beam.  Your thoughts?

Yes.  From a design perspective rather than a balance one (which the team must take into account), TerSlashBlues instead of SBlues makes more sense on the Raynor.

Do note that during both TBI and Aristeia, the team has replaced TerSlashBlues with SBlues on the Diomedes.  It is possible a similar thing was done here.  Basically, the Bull Frost might have a weaker but longer range and more accurate firing mode which behaves similarly to the Thorn Lance.

[bfobar]

I will say, not looking at any tables or anything, that my play impression was underwhelming so far for the Raynor and OMGWTFBBQ for the Titan. It's a pretty ship, but it seems to lose life a lot faster than I expect for the design. Maybe there is a mission somewhere in the next BP that can showcase it's toughness, like drive it through a Karuna or something relatively unscathed? That would be cool.

[Molaris]

ok, my bad. but the point still stands that the Raynor's job seems to be to mop up whatever manages to get by the battlegroup's forward firepower and keep it's escorts alive.

[SpardaSon21]

At this point we're all waiting for the inevitable Release 2 mission that shows off Steele's tactical genius as a battle commander and not just a system-scale strategist, starring his flagship the Atreus as the centerpiece of the battle.

[CT27]

In addition to Steele, I think more than a few people also want to see a Raynor itself do well against the UEF.  I've seen a few posts saying the Raynor isn't all that better than a Titan.

[SpardaSon21]

I did say the Atreus would be the centerpiece of it, and we all know that's a Raynor.  I was hoping we'd get something that establishes Steele as an even better badass while showing that the Raynor kicks ass and takes names as well as any other TEI capital ship.

[CT27]

I think we're both on the same page here.

[SaltyWaffles]

To sum up, the Raynor has a HBlue and a BBlue in front, and 2 MBlues, 1 TerSlashBlue and 1Sblue on each broadside.

Well, actually, its BBlue seems to have a terrible field of fire. It can't be fired with the HBlue at the same target at most angles, and it also can't effectively fire at the same target as some of the MBlue's at most angles. Unless there's some unseen bugs/subtle problems with FRED testing I've done, the ship is notable for its HBlue, but compared to a Titan's 3 BBlue's it's rather moot. If you want something good at non-shock-jump engagements and non-forward firepower, it's much more efficient to have some Diomedes and Deimos corvettes.

SBlue's, too? Really? For a top-of-the-line destroyer explicitly designed for line-combat and all-around-firepower roles, why does it have a slow-firing, relatively low-damage beam if it isn't mounted in batteries of at least 3?

Look, balance is significant, I know, but if it's too good against UEF ships, buff UEF ships. Otherwise it's jarring as hell when a state of the art destroyer mounts relatively underwhelming cruiser-grade weapons where you'd expect far, far more firepower to be.

Don't make a huge glass cannon that packs a good but not particularly impressive punch over a wide area--that kind of armament is what you'd want for the ships that can effectively take a beating and slug it out. In ships with poor or unimpressive durability, specialize for asymmetrical warfare and hit-and-run tactics. This is why the Bellerophon is a far more efficient battlecruiser than a Raynor; the Raynor needs greater durability more than anything, otherwise its just plain inefficient or ineffective in its role.

And I'd really rather not play Aristeia and walk away with the impression that the GTVA's next-gen warships are about as impressive as the Mentu. If Sanctus cruisers aren't supposed to get instantly shredded on that mission, don't make Sanctus's super-fragile.

My thought is, good luck opening away the whole Raynor's hull to change a random beam mount with something else that the reactor probably won't be able to sustain on top of the rest.

...huh? It shouldn't be an SBlue in the first place. An SBlue's main improvement over the SGreen is effective range. If you can mount two SGreens on an FS2-era Aeolus, surely you could manage to mount something more than an SBlue on the entire rear half of the 3-kilometer-long state-of-the-art destroyer?

[Scotty]

Wait, so your problem is that the Raynor mounts an SBlue at all?  Even though it has three higher power beams in the same broadside, and two of the highest power beams period in the front?  It already has eight higher power beams on the ship, why does an SBlue matter after all that?

[The E]

Salty: Make your own ****ing mod already. Seriously. Your feedback had long since crossed the line from "somewhat reasonable" to "I am right and I will not even pretend to listen to anyone". It is time for you to either accept that this is our vision of what BP is and should be, make your own mod to fix all of your perceived shortcomings, or continue to ramble on about points noone but you seems to really care about.

[QuakeIV]

I kinda agree on the SBlue point.

Also, I can understand your frustration, E.  Though being wrong isn't a democracy.

[MatthTheGeek]

This is a modding community. Salty, you have your own ideas. They aren't necessarily bad ideas, but they are choices that you would make, backed by the reasons you have explained, which are not the choices the BP team has made. It is not because you think your ideas are better that the BP team has any obligation whatsoever to implement your changes.

If you want your vision to become reality, it's time to pick up modding. If you need any help for that, I will be more than happy to point you in the right direction.

[General Battuta]

The reason the Raynor didn't appear much in R1 and hasn't had the chance to be a real badass yet is because the Atreus' appearances represent Steele as a character in the story so far. He's not up front slugging it out with omfg hax beams. He's using his resources carefully, positioning elements from behind the scenes, focusing on inflection points and gaps in the UEF's surface. He's fighting the Atreus as the literal king of the board, limited in its actions but immense in its ability to shape enemy strategy.

When he brings the full might of the Atreus to bear you'll get to see more of the Raynor's capabilities. Discussion on the BP forums tends to look at these ships in a very narrow, HP-and-beams centric vision of what makes a potent warship. Consider strategic and tactical agility, electronics, the ship's sensor, the affordances of an excellent power grid, the countermeasures Steele has been marshalling for use against a Solaris-class opponent. The Raynor's power is immense in much the same way a modern guided missile destroyer's power is immense compared to a WW2 battleship: the guns are physically smaller, or not guns at all, but the ability to place that firepower where it is needed, when it is needed, and to acquire the information to determine how best to use those weapons, to position friendly elements to prepare or follow up upon the strike, is enormous.

How do the Shivans kill GTVA ships in FreeSpace 2? Is it always through a force-against-force set piece? No. The Shivans get most of their decisive kills by abruptly changing the battlespace, deploying new forces, exploiting blind spots in GTVA information. It's the unexpected and the unknown, incredible violence of action from unexpected directions, that works for the Shivans. And the Raynor was built with these lessons in mind.

[General Battuta]

As waffles said before, in game all of it's 'victories' against enemy ships were in situations where any Terran destroyer except maybe the Hecate could have delivered a performance that was at least on par with what the Raynor accomplished. I understand that the Raynor's abilities are supposed to go beyond straight firepower and armor, but we've yet to see them actually demonstrated in any mission (with the exception of the sprint drive), and until that happens those two categories are the things that spring to mind when thinking about it's performance.

A lot of the Raynor's power lies in the meta-rules we laid down, things that are never written into tables but are taken into account when designing missions, setting AI levels, timing jumps, telling the story. This is unfortunate for fans who comb through the tables, but believe me, having put the Atreus in action at full capacity - with its heatsinks and power grid and crew and electronics in mind - it's an incredible, almost absurd platform.

[SpardaSon21]

No doubt as Steele's flagship the Atreus will have Balls of Steele AI when we finally see it in action.  Anything less just wouldn't be proper.

[Aesaar]

A lot of the Raynor's power lies in the meta-rules we laid down, things that are never written into tables but are taken into account when designing missions, setting AI levels, timing jumps, telling the story. This is unfortunate for fans who comb through the tables, but believe me, having put the Atreus in action at full capacity - with its heatsinks and power grid and crew and electronics in mind - it's an incredible, almost absurd platform.

No words to express how much I look forward to seeing this. 

[Molaris]

Wait, so your problem is that the Raynor mounts an SBlue at all?  Even though it has three higher power beams in the same broadside, and two of the highest power beams period in the front?  It already has eight higher power beams on the ship, why does an SBlue matter after all that?

 

my only problem with the SBlue is the long refire rate. I've never understood why a smaller beam weapon has a longer cool down than a bigger beam cannon. but that is just me. perhaps there are advantages to the SBlue of TerSlashBlue

[crizza]

If I got it straight, a Sblue requires less space, but cannot handle the huge amount of power input, so it needs longer to cool down before getting fired again.
Guess the emitter is smaller than that of the Terslashblue too.