[Ghostavo]

Yes, and shields plural could also mean fighter shields. And with the Lucifer Fleet being assumed to be the same one can only wonder. Also, I'm not saying the Ancients were neanderthals, but that the Shivans are the equivalent to the First Ones (B5 reference) in FreeSpace. Finally, one can assume that the GTVA is more advanced than the Ancients regarding weaponry. They have after all beam weaponry that is assumed to pass through shields.

[aldo_14]

also using and arguemnt of somene else they mentioned "shields" this would sugest there were more then one lucy's and yes they could not bypasss the shields.  agree i never said they did i just wanted to provide an arguement that the fact they could not bypass the shields of the lucifer in time does not mean they were a backwater societe in terms of ship and weapon tech.

It clearly implies they were far inferior.

Also, RE: plural shields, the fs ref bible / monologues mention the Shivans having key ships plural.

Act 3 Misc 2A
The records have been deciphered and analyzed.  The language used by these “ancients” bears several similarities to the Vasudan language, lending credence to some of the Vasudan legends about their ancestry.  From what little information there is in the records, it’s learned that the Ancient’s civilization was one very similar to the Terrans and Vasudans, and that they were likewise annihilated by a mysterious space-faring race that showed no mercy or effort to communicate.  In the last months of their species’ existence, they were perfecting a device to allow ships to be tracked in subspace.  The Ancient’s planned on using this to attack the Shivans’ key ships in subspace while their shields were down.  Unfortunately, the Shivans destroyed their fleets before they could exploit this device.  Furthermore, the Ancients speculate that subspace nodes were quite fragile, and that combat during a jump would surely cause the collapse of the surrounding nodes.

Terrans begin constructing the tracking device immediately. They need to recover certain bits of technology from the Shivans to reconstruct the tracking device.  The renegade Vasudans also have a piece of needed technology so there is also an offensive against them, requiring a showdown between the renegade and loyal Vasudans.

[missions involve the player’s forces trying to track down the SD fleet.  It’s found, and the newly made tracking devices are readied for use.  Unfortunately, the SD fleet is just one jump away from the Terran’s home systems.  A large attack group of Terran ships is quickly assembled, and the SD attack begins as it makes the last jump to Earth.]

To me it seems very likely the Shivan fleet had more than one Lucifer or similarly shielded superdestroyer.  (note; I don't think it's in the final game, but the FS1 ref bible has the HOL as a pre-Great War sect headquartered in a wrecked Ancients building in a planet in Altair, hence their role in this description)

And why would the box be so untrustworthy? The sme can be said about countless other sources of cannon evidence. I mean come on its like saing that what the Volition beta testers knew about fs2 and or fs3 would be useless cuz well its not that cannon right?

Box art is done by the PR and marketing people, not the game developers.  Whilst there would be some input as to the images, etc, included, the storyline is certainly not something that's going to be given away quite so drastically on the back of the box.  It's simply marketing hyperbole to indicate there's a lot more to kill this time round.

[AlphaOne]

Well yeah but i would imagine the ancients havin somewhat better weapons then the terrans or vasudans in this case regarding fs1 era ships. and better ships. But not good enough that they could blast through the shields of the lucy. Also i dont believe that 8000 years ago the shivans had the ships like the juggs or the corvettes or even the recently encountered cruiser. However i would imagine them having the same weaponry they had during the confrontation with the terrans and vasudans on they cap ships except Lucy.

However my point and arguemnt wasnt referring to them as beeing as advanced in ship or weapon design as the shivans not necesarily. They could of been perhaps on the same level of ship tech and weapon tech or even past the shivans in most regards except when it came to the shields of the lucy and its flux cannons. It is a posibilaty.

The other arguement i was hoping to prevale was the fact that they subspace tech wasnt as primitive as everyone suspects nut rather some what equal or more advanced in some ways. The fact that they did not have the means of tracking a ship through subspace could just be because they did not need it utill they encountered the shivans. and by the time they figured it out it was too late.


Also could it be posible for the shivans in diferent parts of the galaxi to evolve separately in they weapons tech and ship tech?

[aldo_14]

Well yeah but i would imagine the ancients havin somewhat better weapons then the terrans or vasudans in this case regarding fs1 era ships. and better ships. But not good enough that they could blast through the shields of the lucy. Also i dont believe that 8000 years ago the shivans had the ships like the juggs or the corvettes or even the recently encountered cruiser. However i would imagine them having the same weaponry they had during the confrontation with the terrans and vasudans on they cap ships except Lucy.

They had lower levels of tech than the FS2 GTVA in weaponry terms if we assume the shielded Shivan destroyers were Lucifer or lower level.

However my point and arguemnt wasnt referring to them as beeing as advanced in ship or weapon design as the shivans not necesarily. They could of been perhaps on the same level of ship tech and weapon tech or even past the shivans in most regards except when it came to the shields of the lucy and its flux cannons. It is a posibilaty.

Unlikely, though, given the monologues.  Every indication is that the Ancients lost time and time again without winning any counter-attacks.

The other arguement i was hoping to prevale was the fact that they subspace tech wasnt as primitive as everyone suspects nut rather some what equal or more advanced in some ways. The fact that they did not have the means of tracking a ship through subspace could just be because they did not need it utill they encountered the shivans. and by the time they figured it out it was too late.

The Ancients pseudo-reverance for the Shivans as punishment for 'sin' indicates they were (however advanced the Ancients were) considerably more advanced.  You simply don't regard a species that is not markedly superior in that manner.

Also could it be posible for the shivans in diferent parts of the galaxi to evolve separately in they weapons tech and ship tech?

Possible, but unlikely with all that's been seen; all indications have pointed to the Shivans being akin to a hive mind, plus they re-use many ship types from FS1 in FS2 except for weapons upgrading and the dumping of obsolete designs (with the arguable exception of the Lucifer, which itself was probably vulnerable to beam weapons).  There's certainly no more cause for it than there is regarding the FS1 and FS2 GTVA as seperately evolved.

[AlphaOne]

hell then i cant imagine a race that actualy managed to build the knossos to be so stupid as to remain behind so much from a weapons tech point of view. I mea come on althrough out history of the terrans at least they constantly strugle to develop better weapons even when theyr economi was in shambles during the 14 year terran vasudan war they were seeking new wais of defeating theyr enemies. Also even if they would of won the war they would use resources to constantly develop better weapons and technologi and ships.

[aldo_14]

hell then i cant imagine a race that actualy managed to build the knossos to be so stupid as to remain behind so much from a weapons tech point of view. I mea come on althrough out history of the terrans at least they constantly strugle to develop better weapons even when theyr economi was in shambles during the 14 year terran vasudan war they were seeking new wais of defeating theyr enemies. Also even if they would of won the war they would use resources to constantly develop better weapons and technologi and ships.

Well, you just answered yourself there; the Terrans and Vasudans were entrenched in a war of attrition.  The ancients were a warlike race, but they never encountered anyone dangerous enough to force them to have to upgrade their weaponry.  If you had an army with machine guns and were facing Roman Centurions, you wouldn't need to develop lasers to win.  The Ancients simply had no need to agressively research weaponry, so instead they were focusing upon outwards advancement into new territory.

[AlphaOne]

if only a race would of been advanced enough or powerfull enough to actuali put up a decent fight at least a couple of years causing huge damage to the Ancients fleets then they would of thought twice regarding they superiority and who knows maibe they would off been strong enough to actualy beet the shivans.

[aldo_14]

if only a race would of been advanced enough or powerfull enough to actuali put up a decent fight at least a couple of years causing huge damage to the Ancients fleets then they would of thought twice regarding they superiority and who knows maibe they would off been strong enough to actualy beet the shivans.

Not likely - any race like that would have probably been wiped out by the Shivans.

[AlphaOne]

god damn these things get around the univers. I mean come on its like they crush you just before you can mature become more powerfull.

Oh well i can only imagine the look on they faces when theyr lucy was destroyed.

Here is another idea i had i mean since the orion has quite a lot of straight surfaces what about mounting missile launchers or bomb torpedo launchers. Reduce its weapons sistems regarding beam cannons i mean let is have say 2 of them and then mount missiles on it. they could be used for aaaf defense and whith a shi launching 15 or 20 or 30 trebs at ani given time i would suspect it would be quite a problem for any ship. Or have it close range firing 8 or 10 helios at a time.

But then again you could create a new model to do this job or stick to beam weapons.

It was just a thought.

[aldo_14]

Here is another idea i had i mean since the orion has quite a lot of straight surfaces what about mounting missile launchers or bomb torpedo launchers. Reduce its weapons sistems regarding beam cannons i mean let is have say 2 of them and then mount missiles on it. they could be used for aaaf defense and whith a shi launching 15 or 20 or 30 trebs at ani given time i would suspect it would be quite a problem for any ship. Or have it close range firing 8 or 10 helios at a time.

Nae chance.  You'd need to gut the inside of the ship to add in massive amounts of internal ammo stores, feeds to the weapon, and most crucially of all add new armouring to those sectors.  Plus there's an obvious logistical issue with any sort of long-term operation; even the Colossus was susceptible in that area, and the last thing you want to do is allow the enemy to tear apart your fleet by simply attacking your vulnerable transports and freighters without even having to engage the destroyers.

[AlphaOne]

but dont beam cannons require plassma or something like that? isnt that in danger of running out? that would be the same as with the spent amunition from a missile launcher.

On the other hand how many shots can be fired by a beam cannon befoer it has to be reloaded so to speak?

[aldo_14]

but dont beam cannons require plassma or something like that? isnt that in danger of running out? that would be the same as with the spent amunition from a missile launcher.

On the other hand how many shots can be fired by a beam cannon befoer it has to be reloaded so to speak?

No.  Beam cannon (and all other energy weapons) use plain old energy, fiddled about with in some odd way to create the stream of energy we see.  This energy is generated by the ships fusion reactor/s, which are powered by mined deuterium gas (aka heavy water), and these reactors power every aspect of the ship from weapons, to life support, to lights, to weapons.   Fusion is an incredibly efficient manner of energy generation, and I'd imagine it is far, far more efficient in usage terms than finite ammo.  Essentially, beam cannon, etc, are in the same danger of running out as the engines are.

[AlphaOne]

well there wah this thing when the psamtik engaged the belisarius where it said someyhin like "comence plasma core insertion" ??? whats that all about???

[aldo_14]

well there wah this thing when the psamtik engaged the belisarius where it said someyhin like "comence plasma core insertion" ??? whats that all about???

I would imagine it referenced activating some kind of secondary or tertiary power system that connected up to, and powered, the beam turret.

[S-99]

Plus, another thing to remember about the psamtik taking down the belisaurius there was what type of beamage they used
The psamtik seemed to have a combat capability on the lines of being able to overcharge its weapons utilitizing extra energy. You only get to see the results of adding the extra power to that beam they used. And that was one serious beam. I mean, one hit, with it put a hole in that deimos. That was one overcharged beam I think the vasudan captain was showing his sentiments for the ntf Also the thing about that overcharged beam, was that it took a while to do, they had to do a whole extra procedure, as opposed to destroying the belisaurius with a salvo of beams. I guess if you have the time and opportunity to take an accurate shot, you might want the extra energy from the plasma core. That added some serious longevity to a vasudan beam, not to mention power, it blasted away the belisaurius which was at like 30 or 20 percent I know the deimos was weakened, but usually at 20 or 30% hull integrity, it takes a lot more beamage to destroy than just one beam. If you ask me, the plasma core energy sounds like adding an extra capacitor to the beam fire sequence, one serious capacitor. I say capacitor, because thats what you use to add instant jolts of energy to **** usually on any level of joltiness (reminds me of taking apart a disposable camera, ooww).

[ilya]

Or  was just showing off. It was the first real mission in the game and if this didn't suck you in, nothing would.

[S-99]

Also that you know opening with a couple of regular beam salvo's would be faster. Yes it was a show off, and it also was maybe a show off of unique vasudan beams, how they're different from terran beams.

[AlphaOne]

wasnt the psamtik equiped with the vasudan counterpart of the BFG?

Also i must say that was one very serious beam. I remember the first time i played FS2 i got blasted by the darn thing since i dont exactly know how i managed to get ring in its firing line. Lol. Oh well i remember thinking:"wtf. since when did they ad god's and stuff to the game??" man i re emeber laughing about that like crazy  i even looked to see if i was playng the right game. Since well i only played a couple of missions from fs1 before that. Then completed fs2 and then completed fs1 the great war and silent threat.

[Mars]

There is no Vasudan equivalent to the BFgreen. That one shot kill was all done with SEXPs.

The second thing I did with the Freespace 2 demo was text edited one of the levels to shoot me with an Sred to see how powerful it was. Needless to say it vaporized me instantly, but how else would I have learned?

[Flipside]

Oh yeah, that first mission might as well have been called 'We Got Beamzors!'

Still as Ilya said, if that mission doesn't draw you into the game, nothing will