[Black Wolf]

Are the panel lines on a separate layer? Any chance of lightening them up so they're not as sharply defined? Leviathan or not, the original texture was very clean, with minimal panel lining - I'm not saying redo it, but maybe try to de-emphasize them a tad?

[Luis Dias]

The purple strip seems a tad too saturated. The (bump mapped) panels at the main vertical body are probably too accentuaded, they seem blocky, cartoonish.

I can only think of those negative things to say. I love it otherwise!

[fightermedic]

should the glow really be red? we've used the blue one for so long now it just feels wrong to go back to red

[An4ximandros]

We can actually see a big difference without a blue ship now. Should it come back or stay out?

[Hades]

Are the panel lines on a separate layer? Any chance of lightening them up so they're not as sharply defined? Leviathan or not, the original texture was very clean, with minimal panel lining - I'm not saying redo it, but maybe try to de-emphasize them a tad?

I personally like the look, it gives the mid section a medieval keep sort of look to it, plus it'll help further differentiate the two ships as well.

We can actually see a big difference without a blue ship now. Should it come back or stay out?

I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't, now that they'll be fairly different. I've also never liked keeping things the way they are simply because they've been done the same way for a long time - basically, I hate tradition.

I'm not opposed to it going to blue, but I'm also not sure it's necessary to do so. I'd rather wait and see how it works out ingame and I think Oddgrim's of the same mind in this regard.

[Dragon]

I'd say, keep the color-swapped look. Green stripes on the bow, slightly "dusty gray" skin instead of "bluish-gray" of the Fenris, and of course the blue lights. Since the "Fenris-like" texture is either already done or nearly done, it could be added as an optional one.

[fightermedic]

i just think it should be blue to be easily able to tell the difference in the heat of it all
as soon as you are further than some 500m away from the ships you are probably not going to be able to tell which ship is which, without looking very closely
and blue just looks cooler

[Trivial Psychic]

Even if you DO decide to keep red, I ask that you ALSO create a blue texture so that campaigners can decide for themselves.

[Aesaar]

i just think it should be blue to be easily able to tell the difference in the heat of it all
as soon as you are further than some 500m away from the ships you are probably not going to be able to tell which ship is which, without looking very closely

I don't see why this is a bad thing.  They're similar-looking ships.  Difficulty in identification would probably be a problem faced in a "real life" situation.

Or, you know, you could just look at the target information.

[Oddgrim]

Are the panel lines on a separate layer? Any chance of lightening them up so they're not as sharply defined? Leviathan or not, the original texture was very clean, with minimal panel lining - I'm not saying redo it, but maybe try to de-emphasize them a tad?

I can see why you would think so,they are a tad too strong and just to point it out I am using the retail .pcx textures as reference not the MediaVP ones. Normal strength can be changed as I desire, without much problems. 

We can actually see a big difference without a blue ship now. Should it come back or stay out?

I'm very much on the fence regarding the glows, I can only assume FSU changed this to make visual identification easier as in retail leviathan and the fenris had identical appearance.
For now I'm very much inclined to see how they both preform ingame before doing a change, if visual identification at close and at distance poses too much of a problem game play wise, I'll happily make the leviathan glows blue and fenris glows red.

I'd say, keep the color-swapped look. Green stripes on the bow, slightly "dusty gray" skin instead of "bluish-gray" of the Fenris, and of course the blue lights. Since the "Fenris-like" texture is either already done or nearly done, it could be added as an optional one.

The main armour colour is almost identical ( around 90,90,90 RGB) The major difference is in the shine and elements in the grime. Adding an "optional" texture, while not completely out of the question is not on the agenda.

as soon as you are further than some 500m away from the ships you are probably not going to be able to tell which ship is which, without looking very closely

That is crux of the problem is not? In the altered version from the side you can easily identify the two, however viewed from anywhere else, top, under and front they look the same. In retail you did not know before targeting the ship or : pay attention to the briefing and battle chatter. (Thinking of the main freespace campaign here).
Well, in the end they are just glows, easily changed by anyone with access to a decent editing program.

[Luis Dias]

The fact they are now different models with subtle differences makes the identification more fun, IMHO.

[mjn.mixael]

I've spoken with them about the issue of glows and they are being surprisingly strong willed about it. Their main arguments being...

1: Don't want to do it just because we've always done it.
2: (this is assuming because they haven't directly said it yet) Retail was red.
3: Shouldn't need them because of different polygons, but that they'll "see how performance is later".

The first is typical Hades, and I'm surprised Oddgrim is being just as strong willed about it. Oddgrim is usually much more open to differing views, but has been rather closed off on IRC this time.

The second is their strongest point and they could stick to that throughout and I couldn't blame them for it. Though it is ironic given the original modeller.

The third is just a plain cop-out to me. Who's going to do that testing? Hades or Oddgrim?.. (who are so familiar with every pixel and polygon on the model that it would be a pure bias). How do you test that? This one won't go anywhere, but it gives them something to say so that they don't have to change.

All that said, I will make blue glows available to whomever wants them and perhaps we'll hold an FSU vote later with finished textures on both ships to see what color it should be.

[Hades]

I've spoken with them about the issue of glows and they are being surprisingly strong willed about it. Their main arguments being...

1: Don't want to do it just because we've always done it.
2: (this is assuming because they haven't directly said it yet) Retail was red.
3: Shouldn't need them because of different polygons, but that they'll "see how performance is later".

The first is typical Hades, and I'm surprised Oddgrim is being just as strong willed about it. Oddgrim is usually much more open to differing views, but has been rather closed off on IRC this time.

The second is their strongest point and they could stick to that throughout and I couldn't blame them for it. Though it is ironic given the original modeller.

The third is just a plain cop-out to me. Who's going to do that testing? Hades or Oddgrim?.. (who are so familiar with every pixel and polygon on the model that it would be a pure bias). How do you test that? This one won't go anywhere, but it gives them something to say so that they don't have to change.

All that said, I will make blue glows available to whomever wants them and perhaps we'll hold an FSU vote later with finished textures on both ships to see what color it should be.

Neither of us have been "strong willed", we've both stated we're willing to change it if the reason for it being turned blue in the first place still proves true and is an issue, being visual identification. Like usual, you're just being a brat about it.

1. He's said he'd rather wait. That's not being strong willed, that's literally being neutral about the issue.

2. It's not ironic, most of my models have been fairly similar shape-wise with detailing extrapolated from the texture. The Leviathan has been made different for what should be obvious reasons, the Medusa was changed in a lot of ways to make it look beefier and meaner, and the Apollo had changes for similar reasons.

3. I'd sure hope that it's not just Oddgrim and myself doing general testing, because then that points inwards towards the FSU needing more active members. It's about as much as a copout to say "Hey, let's wait and see if changing it back to red will pose a problem" as it is to say "It's been blue for years thus it should stay blue."

I'd say that if anything, YOU'RE the one being strong willed here as you're unwilling to accept that: a) red might work, b) we're both willing to change it if necessary, we're on the fence about it, and c) people can do things other than readily agree with you.

[Oddgrim]

Mjnmixael, I'm not so sure what you mean with "strong-willed" in this matter. As I have read the feedback and my own collected thoughts :
Both sides have a equally good reasoning behind it, either choice would be the "correct one" so to speak. I'll happily do the testing needed when the time comes, as could anyone with svn access.
The original change was probably game play related, and I suspect the need to difference the two models from being completely clones. As such it would only be fair to judge the new glows and models on the same merit.

[mjn.mixael]

The crux of my point is this. For ten years the Levi has been blue. It's like community as a whole has generally agreed this is a good thing. As evidence I point to the complete lack of complaints or "that's not retail!"s. Additionally, it was suggested that the TSC2 and the Cerberus also be changed to have blue glows and there have been zero complaints.

Suddenly, you want to change it back to red just cause. Now, I'm absolutely sure that half the community could care a less. But others do, so as I said I'll be making blue available if it's not. And since you are resorting to name calling, I'm stepping out. My point is made and I can mod well enough to make the changes I need that others may want.

[MatthTheGeek]

Suddenly, you want to change it back to red just cause.

Not "just cause". The arguments have been laid out clearly in this thread. If you're unwilling to even acknowledge that the other side has arguments at all, it's probably better if you step out indeed.

[Ulala]

Not that it carries much weight, but I'd vote for the blue. Even if it's not necessary for the same reason it was blue in retail, by making them both red, I feel you lose an opportunity for a cool call back to the original game we all know and love.

If you need a logical in-fs-universe reason for it, one could argue that when they built the Levi, they used newer generation parts including a new power system that happened to glow blue instead of red. But meh, I think it'd just be a cool shout out to classic fs2 to have the blue, even if the models were drastically different.

Just my $0.02. Either way, the new model looks lovely.

[edit] Wait... the Leviathan was blue in retail, right?

[edit2] Nevermind, it's been too long since I've played FS2 without any mods. In the spirit of calling out original retail, I suppose they'd both have to be red. A part of me would miss the blue, though.

[Kolgena]

If we want to look at precedence, the Cain/Lilith used to be identical in retail as well, but the FS community has made the Lilith a darker color than the Cain for the upgraded models. Applicability to this case is not perfect, because the Cain/Lilith share the same mesh.

I'm more in favor for the blue leviathan, because it improves readability of what a model is if it's 7km in the distance and made up of 20 pixels, one of which is colored either blue or red.

[Aesaar]

If we want to look at precedence, the Cain/Lilith used to be identical in retail as well, but the FS community has made the Lilith a darker color than the Cain for the upgraded models. Applicability to this case is not perfect, because the Cain/Lilith share the same mesh.

I'm more in favor for the blue leviathan, because it improves readability of what a model is if it's 7km in the distance and made up of 20 pixels, one of which is colored either blue or red.

Press Y, check target info.

And if the ship is 20 pixels in size, you're going to have trouble recognising any ship unless you really try, by which point you could have checked target info.

[Hades]

Yeah, I'm not sure if the color distinction would be anything noticeable at 7 kilometers either, not to mention why you'd need to be able to visually tell that from that distance since it won't be a part of your fight (aka not currently relevant) or if you're moving towards it, you can easily press Y.

Again, that's not to say I'm against making it blue (I feel like I need to highlight this for Mjn), but I really can't see the point.

Oh, and I'm mulling around revisiting the Lilith situation, but that'd be for later.