Author Topic: FSF: Programers Unite: FreeSpace FOREVER  (Read 40303 times)

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Offline Rictor

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hey guys, i have my thoughts on what this should be and all, i'v ebeen thinking of doing fs with a new engine for quite a while

anyways, the ifh engine looks awesome, i told kazan to see for himself, its look to be better than anyone here can come up with in less than a year or 2. just because its not "your" engine doesnt make the game any less yours

anyway, i'm working on a website, so..uhm i got a lot to say

basically: get a webiste up
get the best talent in the fs community (aldo, venom, untouchable, steak, etc etc) and get them onboard

taking the best ideas from fs and new ideas we can make a kickass game.. a legacy

anyways, why not get hosted by hlp? they got servers, forums webspace and community,

 

Offline Kazan

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the IFH people won't share their source, they won't endorse linux versions, and their engine is highly specific
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Offline Fineus

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
anyways, why not get hosted by hlp? they got servers, forums webspace and community,

Untill we see something more substantial we simply can't offer hosting - it goes against our own rules of hosting.

However once something has been done we'd be more than happy to offer hosting to the project, although as shown slightly above Kazan doesn't like the servers... however as a counterpoint he's not the project leader so it doesn't really matter what he thinks of them.

Which raises another - important - point. Who leads this thing? The more experience this person or persons has the better, there shouldn't be more than 3 "main" leaders since past that things start to take to long to get done. Just one leader also isn't always good since they get final say and don't always have expertise in what everyone else is doing (thus making poor, uninformed judgements). (obviously this is all IMO).

I should point out at this stage to those of you who remember it - Cold Legacy. It was a huge project, one down from this basically - designed to be a FS3. Poor planning mean't it never really worked out - ensure this doesn't happen here.

(Oh, and welcome to the forums Ric :))

 

Offline Kamikaze

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IMHO, I think Kazan should employ the Roman Method. In other words assign two consuls, and the programmers/artists etc are the senate. Works, no? :)
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Fineus

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Hmm - could work, another point is that the head dude (s?) should have experience in as many areas as possible including programming, art, website design, audio, concept work and the interaction with others as well as a good ability to lead :nod:

 

Offline Kazan

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or even better kami - make it a triumvirate
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Offline Inquisitor

Programers Unite: FreeSpace FOREVER
Make a search committee and have people submit resumes.

Have people like Thunder, maybe myself, maybe Kaz (though if you apply, you can't be on the selection committee) etc on that committee. That small group (3 is a good number) votes on the most qualified applicant, maybe order the top 3 and let the people signing up to do the work choose, something like that.

That's how we hire people, we have interview teams, the teams discuss the applicant, then recommend.

Oh, and managing by committee gets funky, you often get deadlocked issues, teams split, all sorts of wierdness.

Just make sure you have a fair project lead. You can select the lead by committee, but managing by committee, well, doesn't really work ;)

Sidenote: Kaz, just don't go overboard in the other direction with the anti-windows thing and slant it away from windows users. They are, after all, the bulk of your audience and ultimately people you are making it for ;)

Sidenote 2: Who else out there does C++?  Sounds like Kaz will handle the Linux side of things, you need at least one person willing to live and develop in the windows world. Also, what about Macs? I guess I am getting to what I would call the Scope again. Someone copy all this down into one document and post a link (all the scope stuff, not all the posts, stuff about cross platform, openGL, yada yada).
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Offline Kazan

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Inqui: Macs with OS/X should be able to use the same executable that linux uses

and if get get very clever with GLUT [the OpenGL Utility Package] we can make the same code base work on windows and linux

btw: the "anti-windows" is because i got sick and tired of that crapOS and that corporation with a napoleon complex
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Offline phreak

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Quote
Originally posted by Inquisitor
Sidenote 2: Who else out there does C++?  Sounds like Kaz will handle the Linux side of things, you need at least one person willing to live and develop in the windows world. Also, what about Macs? I guess I am getting to what I would call the Scope again. Someone copy all this down into one document and post a link (all the scope stuff, not all the posts, stuff about cross platform, openGL, yada yada).


I do C++, and know basic W32, and OGL.  I could always study up and practice.
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Offline Galemp

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Hey there Kaz. Heard a lot about you.

     Well, as you may know, I am VERY interested in preserving Freespace. I mean, come on, look at what I've done. That means compatibility with FS2 means compatibility with FS1. :)

I've read all the pages, and I have quite a bit to say.

Is it possible? Ultimately, yes. We have incredible talent here, in every position, judging by all the work done on FS mods. I've seen coding, models, maps, missions, web pages, you name it, all in the name of Freespace. There's no doubt that we have the resources and the motivation.

     However, we lack coordination. It's been said that "if we can't get a single mod or campaign done, what chance do we have here?" What game studios have and we don't is that everyone works together in one building at the same time: programmers, sound engineers, writers, modelers, everything. We have forums, ICQ and Email. Not the greatest medium for full development. I'm extremely impressed with what we've had so far, but having unpaid, undedicated people all over the world it won't cut it.

     This brings me to my next point: if we're really serious about this, we're going to need full-time staffers. I don't know how many of you are professionals, but if we're building an entire game we need a production studio. This is unlikely considering many of us are still in school. (What were those demographics again?) Kids working after school and on weekends, including activities, sports, homework, studying, and real jobs, can't produce something like this, particularly if it takes 24 hours to get feedback on something.

     Now for copyright issues. As it's been said, if you can create a program that can read copyrighted files, you can distribute it, so long as you don't actually distribute those files. VPView isn't illegal now is it? Also, I've had a lot of questions concerning the Port's legality, but I haven't heard from Interplay yet. :nervous: The way things are going, I feel that by the time this is finished, Interplay and THQ will be bought out or bankrupt, Volition will be independant again or sold to someone else, and Freespace will be all but forgotten. (I think 'abandonware' is technically illegal but nobody cares or is going to make money off it.) In theory you could do it legally, but make damn sure you know the laws in case Interplay starts poking around.

     Engine use? If you write it yourself, you'd know exactly how it works and would be able to do anything you want with it. Unfortunately you would probably have bugs to be filtered out, it would take a long time, and developers would have to wait to start working. There are, however, many engines for low or no cost, tried and tested. I highly suggest looking at all of them and seeing if one tickles your fancy. If not, you can pick up ideas on how to implement a certain feature in your own engine. You should definitely look at the Descent II engine as it was the las game Parallax completed before working on Freespace, and probably has some clues in there.

     Project leader(s): A team of 3 dedicated people in different time zones, avaliable for counseling on any subject at any time, is ideal. If you want one overlord, well...
Quote
Originally posted by Inquisitor:
...gotta find someone who has pulled off a mod, start to finish, maybe that's him, maybe not.

Gee, I can't think of anyone who fills that position... :drevil: Seriously, I'm starting University and will have no free time to speak of, so I can't help, let alone lead.

     In short, we have everything a professional studio has except constant access to each other and each other's work. This could possibly be offset by the vast number of people willing to work on it. If we could acquire a dedicated filesharing server, and have staff on call, we COULD do it. By the time we do, though, the FS2 source could well have been released.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2002, 04:52:59 pm by 510 »
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Offline Rictor

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i dont think kazan is the right man for the job

no offence but you dont like things (volition, microsoft, windows daveb)

i think someone like icefire, aldo or a combination of the mod leaders can pull this off. what i suggest is that you find an open source engine, improve it as you see fit

i have some great ideas (i think they're great;) ) and a few more deisgners couldnt hurt

anyways, kazan honestly, in one thread you have discounted the possibility of using windows programing to make the game, asking an established enginie, and getting hlp to host it, (i think the daveb thread was crap)

its not up to me anyways

well, uhm thats it

 

Offline Zeronet

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Where can i read this "daveb" thread? Someone must of saved something.
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Offline Kamikaze

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I have it, want me to send it to you?
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Zeronet

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Its pure comedy.
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Offline Inquisitor

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daveb thread notwithstanding...

Part time developers can make games, Tac ops just went commercial, that was part time developers, Counter-Strike, another.

http://www.garagegames.com is FULL of teams doing exactly this.

I spent June/Jully to November doing "Endeavor" not a game, but done in a game engine, and have been making my "non-game" From November to today (it actually is a game now, objectives, yada yada) and am about to kick something off with Maxgaming to do something (still part time) for real.

This is all with a full time job and managing real development responsibilities for the company that pays me.

And I am not unique. So, I am not personally convinced you need a studio.

Just need a plan ;)

You guys have the kernel of one here, almost there :)

Kaz: with regards to the Mac OS thing, more or less, but it's not a straight "copy the exe and run" thing. TQ (the only one I have actual experience) has seperate people working on the Mac and Linux exes, just wasn't QUITE the same. Apple still made their own little niggles to it ;)

The good news, is I can point people toward a guy who has DONE that type of conversion, and he can spew all sorts of stuff about the pitfalls involved. And he seems to like to talk about it ;) Met him at the Boston Area IGDA meeting last week.
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Offline Kazan

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
no offence but you dont like things (volition, microsoft, windows daveb)
 


:cool: _I_ won't be working on windows, doesn't mean other developers in the team won't me - this is a cross platform engine and we need programmers on all platforms

:mad:I don't like windows for a entire host of very good reasons, and people blow out of proportions my dislike for windows and microsoft- I i really hated windows that bad I would have done what someone, who shall remain nameless, suggested over ICQ : make it linux only.

:headz: I don't like dave because he couldn't take someone simply pointing out that they recognized "hey you did that this way, the game is great, but that wasn't the best way; here's a better way to use in the future"
I tried many times to be friendly with him and he's rebuked those attempts.


so much for the past
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Offline Kazan

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Quote
Originally posted by Inquisitor

Kaz: with regards to the Mac OS thing, more or less, but it's not a straight "copy the exe and run" thing. TQ (the only one I have actual experience) has seperate people working on the Mac and Linux exes, just wasn't QUITE the same. Apple still made their own little niggles to it ;)


yeah.. the WM isn't the same - but using GLUT .. which i should probably explain here in a minute after my various references to it - should make it still be the same code base - it's just a simple recompile



GLUT or (Open)GL Utility Library
This is a library the provides a cross platform way to initialize opengl - the only part of opengl that isn't natively cross platform - we can do all the GUI drawing inside OpenGL - so with GLUT installed along with the executable you would then have a fully cross-platform program with a single code base.
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Offline JC Denton

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Since I have a few publication tools (i.e. Pagemaker, Acrobat) at my disposal, I might be willing to do any _real_ documentation exported to PDF format if/when something gets released to the public.  Plus, I have some coding knowledge of HTML, so I can help to build any website if need be, although my skills are best directed at linking the whole thing together.

I also have PSP6 and Photoshop, so if I found a very concise tutorial, I may be capable of texturing.  And I am a semi-established artist, so if someone makes a verbal description of an object I can give a rough sketch of what the thing would look like.

Also, I agree that it might actually be easier and faster to use an already-finished engine and add functions we need to it.  Since I have no coding knowledge, this may be a two-edged sword, tho.  I mean, we may add a new, vital gameplay enhancement, but in effect also trash something that must abosolutely be there as well.

And as for data access and model point coordinate data?  I say avoid any table or list files if at all possible.  Modders hate having restrictions (example:  the sounds.tbl and music.tbl files in FS2).  However, they are dead simple to alter, so I'm thinking maybe have table/list data files for weapons and ships, but rather have them call sounds and such directly, without going through an index like the FS2 engine does.  Cut as much crap out as possible.  And make them size-indepenent!  Tables make modding easier, but can quickly kill a conversion if there isn't enough room for everything.

For model formats, I would personally prefer having a generic file such as a 3DS or GMAX hold the geometry info, but have a second file (like an INV for my accursedly blessed Pagemaker, which indexes the document's font types and image locations in this file) hold special point and texturing data.  If you want to alter geometry, fine, just bug with the 3DS/GMAX file (or whatever is used).  If you, say, change texture maps, a simple alteration of the INV (or its equivalent) fixes that, without hex editing or thrashing with the model itself.  Although it can get squirrelly because most 3D files reference the textures directly, right?:confused:

And as for a massive index file, why not use a ZIP file?  AFAIK, it's fairly common technology, and I already know Birth of the Federation uses it as its storage dump for game data files.  Plus, everyone can get a file manager (read: WinZip) to access/add/remove/alter the contents, and it should be easy to implement a read-only script or whatever into the engine itself.

Better shut up now so someone else can get some say in. :)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2002, 08:11:02 pm by 480 »
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Offline Neo

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I have been around a while on the VBB and moved here a little while back.  I will help in any way I can if you want me to.  My skills are limited but I can help with a web site if you want.

 

Offline Inquisitor

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