[Polpolion]

The ancients were killed about 8000 years ago. They were killed by the Shivans. The Shivans also killed everyone on Vasuda Prime. Except Vasuda Prime was rendered not habitable. How were all of the Ancients killed, if there are so many planets still hospitable?


The game itself stated that the Shivans had no interest in planets or anything, just nodes. Except for the capitols, apparently. So I was thinking "okay, the Shivans have wiped out Earth and Vasuda. Now what? They don't care about the other planets. We're safe as long as we stay on a planet!" But that clearly wasn't the case with the ancients.

Either all of the Ancients left their worlds and went into space, or the Shivans landed on the planets and killed everyone. But why wouldn't they do that to every planet they saw right away? And If the Ancients were smart enough to kill off everyone, then why were they stupid enough to let the Shivans kill them?



Discuss.

[Mongoose]

The answer to this is pretty much laid out in the Ancients cutscenes in FS1.  Basically, the Ancients pursued a policy of rapid expansion and aggression against "lesser" species...until they encountered the Shivans.  As the cutscenes narrated, the Shivans were the first species that the Ancients encountered that they could not easily destroy; in fact, they were completely defeated by them in a certain system.  The Ancients decided to withdraw from that system and seek conquests elsewhere, but the Shivans pursued them back through the systems they had conquered, presumably attacking their settlements, until at last the Ancients had been chased all the way back to their original home system.  Even then, though, the Shivans were not content, and they utterly obliterated the Ancients' home world.

The tone of the "persona" narrating the cutscenes, as well as the text of the final one, suggests that they represent the reflections of a final, scattered group of Ancients who managed to evade destruction up until that point.  Since said final cutscene mentions the Ancients' discovery that the Shivans can be tracked through subspace, and that their shields are non-functional there, I think it's safe to assume that that group of Ancients was located on Altair, where Vasudan scientists discovered the subspace tracking data during the Great War.  Since they reported that that particular planet seemed to have been attacked by Lucifer-esque beam weapons, I'd assume that the Shivans similarly attacked the rest of the Ancient settlements.  Why they didn't seem to follow the same pattern during the Great War, I can't say.

[Snail]

I remember hearing that the Lucifer also bombarded Deneb during the Great War, but I don't remember from who or when...

[Polpolion]

The answer to this is pretty much laid out in the Ancients cutscenes in FS1.  Basically, the Ancients pursued a policy of rapid expansion and aggression against "lesser" species...until they encountered the Shivans.  As the cutscenes narrated, the Shivans were the first species that the Ancients encountered that they could not easily destroy; in fact, they were completely defeated by them in a certain system.  The Ancients decided to withdraw from that system and seek conquests elsewhere, but the Shivans pursued them back through the systems they had conquered, presumably attacking their settlements, until at last the Ancients had been chased all the way back to their original home system.  Even then, though, the Shivans were not content, and they utterly obliterated the Ancients' home world.

The tone of the "persona" narrating the cutscenes, as well as the text of the final one, suggests that they represent the reflections of a final, scattered group of Ancients who managed to evade destruction up until that point.  Since said final cutscene mentions the Ancients' discovery that the Shivans can be tracked through subspace, and that their shields are non-functional there, I think it's safe to assume that that group of Ancients was located on Altair, where Vasudan scientists discovered the subspace tracking data during the Great War.  Since they reported that that particular planet seemed to have been attacked by Lucifer-esque beam weapons, I'd assume that the Shivans similarly attacked the rest of the Ancient settlements.  Why they didn't seem to follow the same pattern during the Great War, I can't say.

oh.


I figured that that only meant the military persons.

[TrashMan]

The ancients were killed about 8000 years ago. They were killed by the Shivans. The Shivans also killed everyone on Vasuda Prime. Except Vasuda Prime was rendered not habitable. How were all of the Ancients killed, if there are so many planets still hospitable?

The briefing said "MOST of the landmass has been rendered uninhabitable." Not all.
And it didn't say permanetly. One can re-settle there later.

The game itself stated that the Shivans had no interest in planets or anything, just nodes. Except for the capitols, apparently. So I was thinking "okay, the Shivans have wiped out Earth and Vasuda. Now what? They don't care about the other planets. We're safe as long as we stay on a planet!" But that clearly wasn't the case with the ancients.

Either all of the Ancients left their worlds and went into space, or the Shivans landed on the planets and killed everyone. But why wouldn't they do that to every planet they saw right away? And If the Ancients were smart enough to kill off everyone, then why were they stupid enough to let the Shivans kill them?

Killed all the ancients? An advanced space-faring race is nigh impossible to kill.
A lot probably escaped FAR away, never to return.

Alternativly, vasudans could be what's left of the ancients in this galaxy - they could be their descendants or tehy could have had contact with the ancients in their beginings (which would explain the belief in the destroyers)

[Herra Tohtori]

Killed all the ancients? An advanced space-faring race is nigh impossible to kill.
A lot probably escaped FAR away, never to return.

Alternativly, vasudans could be what's left of the ancients in this galaxy - they could be their descendants or tehy could have had contact with the ancients in their beginings (which would explain the belief in the destroyers)

Except by another, more advanced space-faring race. It's definitely possible that some escaped, but you have to also consider that they were probably as bound to using jump nodes as terrans and vasudans are. That would make it possible to Shivans to chase the Ancients, unless they managed to flee to a very distant system with just one node connecting it to old Ancient space, and then burned the bridge behind them before Shivans could detect where they went or something like that. So it is possible, I guess.

On the other hand, saying that the Vasudans are what's left of Ancients... Well, you could as well say that Terrans (humans) are what's left of the Ancients.

That would definitely only be possible if Vasudans/Humans were ancients' descendants. The Ancients destroyed every civilization they came across, so having contact to Vasudans or Terrans is not actually viable - unless during the Ancient-Shivan conflict.

Explaining religions by extra-terrestrial races is kinda old, though. It's the Vorlon Ex Machina solution...

[Tyrian]

Another possible theory is that the Shivans make a straight push to a species homeworld, destroy it, then obliterate the remaining worlds.  They might believe that the destruction of the homeworld disorients the other planets' defensive efforts, making them easier to raze. 

This pattern was not followed, however, with the Vasudans.  One possible explanation is that the Shivans viewed the Terrans and Vasudans as a single empirical entity, meaning that they had two homeworlds to destroy.  When they failed to destroy Earth, it threw a monkey wrench in their plans. 

The philosophy of destroy the homeworld first could come from the Shivans' own social structure.  If they are a hive mind, then it would be logical that, if they were to attack themselves, they would go for the leader (their equivalent of the homeworld) to disorient the lower levels.  They could be looking for weaknesses in their enemies by examining their own flaws, hence they go for the homeworld, then eliminate what is left.

[Taristin]

Incest.

[Bob-san]

I'm sure there were more then two that would survive. Probably on the order of several thousand to several hundred thousand would remain. If they were so advanced, I'd reckon that if they did remain on Altair for their last days, perhaps the city they were in was built around them during that time? The ruins seen actually was a city post-Shivan?

Anyways I believe perhaps a convoy of Ancients made it away from the shivans... perhaps we would meet them in FS3 beyond Altair?
If I was looking for an escape from the Shivans with the current nodemap, I'd definately chance it beyond Altair or Regulus... both are seemingly Shivan-free.

[Goober5000]

If I was looking for an escape from the Shivans with the current nodemap, I'd definately chance it beyond Altair or Regulus... both are seemingly Shivan-free.

Derelict or Warzone will change your mind.

[Sarafan]

Another possible theory is that the Shivans make a straight push to a species homeworld, destroy it, then obliterate the remaining worlds.  They might believe that the destruction of the homeworld disorients the other planets' defensive efforts, making them easier to raze. 

This pattern was not followed, however, with the Vasudans.  One possible explanation is that the Shivans viewed the Terrans and Vasudans as a single empirical entity, meaning that they had two homeworlds to destroy.  When they failed to destroy Earth, it threw a monkey wrench in their plans. 

The philosophy of destroy the homeworld first could come from the Shivans' own social structure.  If they are a hive mind, then it would be logical that, if they were to attack themselves, they would go for the leader (their equivalent of the homeworld) to disorient the lower levels.  They could be looking for weaknesses in their enemies by examining their own flaws, hence they go for the homeworld, then eliminate what is left.

Your theory is good but there was no way they could have know that Vasuda Prime was the Vasudan homeworld, instead its possible that they go for the planets wich have the biggest population, taking out them and living smaller colonies to be wiped out later or leaving them to their fate, wich would most likely be death much like the remaining Ancients on Altair.

[Turey]

there was no way they could have know that Vasuda Prime was the Vasudan homeworld

Yes there way, simply follow the path of greatest resistance. Species fight hardest to protect their homeworld, so the more defenses, the closer you  are to the homeworld.

[achtung]

I'm pretty sure Terrans and Vasudans are the "descendants" of the ancients either directly or indirectly, because they're both bi-pedal races with somewhat similar needs and minds.  The similarities between the races has to point to something.

I always like to think the remaining ancients helped the Vasudans in some manner, because they should be extinct otherwise.  At least, they should be from what I can gather from the tech room stuff.

[Sarafan]

there was no way they could have know that Vasuda Prime was the Vasudan homeworld

Yes there way, simply follow the path of greatest resistance. Species fight hardest to protect their homeworld, so the more defenses, the closer you  are to the homeworld.

They also fight just as hard to protect other worlds of great importance like Capella. Greater resistance means you're getting near an important place not necessarily their homeworld.

[Trivial Psychic]

Here is an excerpt from the Lucifer FS1 table file:

The Lucifer is the greatest threat to the survival of the GTA, the PVN, and both the Terran and Vasudan species. It wields three massive Flux Cannons which can destroy one of our capital ships in a few hits. These same cannons have been seen bombarding colonized worlds.

Now, we've seen no indication of 3 cannons of this type on the Lucifer, so this can be taken as not being entirely matching the game.

In the FS1 Reference bible (which also doesn't exactly match the game) there was a reference to the Vasudans possibly being an offspring-race of the Ancients, like seeded by them or something.

Personally, I'm going for the "Shivans go for the homeworld(s) first, then mop up the colonies afterwards" even if the table entry is accurate.  If we wonder how the Shivans know which system is a species' homeworld, I'd point out that the Shivans have subspace tracking technology which is far superior to that of the Terrans and Vasudans, so they probably use it to track the subspace activity of those species and find out where its most active.

I'm guessing that very few of the Ancients would have survived the Shivan attack.  In the final voiceover cutscenes, the narrator indicates that they had the capability to track the Shivans in subspace, and knew how to take them out, but had no means to launch the attack.  That suggest that either A- their fighters had no inter-system subspace drives, and they had no cap-ship capable of transporting their fighters to initiate the strike, or B- they had no remaining combat craft whatsoever.  I'm not a fan of A-, since we've seen that the Ancients indeed possessed advanced subspace tech even prior to their encounters with the Shivans, in the form of Knossos tech, which means that they likely had inter-system drives on their fighters.  So, with no warships left, they'd have no way to cover any civilian ships trying to escape the system.  If the Shivans had left their colony planets untouched, they'd likely have left ships behind to take out anything that might have got into space.  The only way I could see any substantial Ancients' fleet assets having survived, is if a section of their fleet was cut off as the Shivan advance did a pincher attack to invade systems surrounding the central system, to prevent escape.  Rather than coming to their civilization's defense, this Ancients fleet decided to do the BSG thing and make a run for it.  In doing so, the fleet managed to get outside the Shivans' detection threshold.

[Hippo]

Woah, major Deja Vu...

[Sarafan]

Well, that could be true, they didnt do anything to system like Antares and others that they've taken, just passed right trough them. A really ''go for the throat'' style, huh?

[S-99]

Maybe the ancients died off because they didn't satisfy the destroyers at the older great barbeque. I mean shivans are just guests you never want to have.

[karajorma]

Except by another, more advanced space-faring race. It's definitely possible that some escaped, but you have to also consider that they were probably as bound to using jump nodes as terrans and vasudans are.

Whether the Ancients were completely committed to using jump nodes when they found the Shivans is debatable but the fact is that we know the Ancients did have access to other interstellar technologies before they discovered subspace. It's possible, probably likely that some of those were FTL. If they still had ships around then maybe they could have escaped in a way the Shivans couldn't follow.

[Mehrpack]

hi,
i think too, the shivans attack first the primary targets.
strong habitable planets, with a great defence force.

so you can break the backbone of a enemy and then wipe the rest out with not many problems.
but i think to, that not all ancient had killed by the shivans.
yes we know the shivans has a big militäry power, but i think its possible enough that some ancient have make a run to a place thats save.

maybe a subspace island, an area where no subspace portal will lead and the only brigde the ancient cutting off???

Mehrpack