[Stryke 9]

You know, I can remember a time when this sort of topic would NOT have made me instantly fall asleep.

Do any of you really think you're convincing anyone else of anything? 'Cos you'er not, just like in any 'issues' topic you're not. This one didn't even turn up in a nice tasty flame war; it's just a bunch of people stating and restating your own opinions, and trying to appear terribly clever.

If, given the futility of attempting to convert someone to one's own ideas, you ask why I even posted this here- it's 'cause I'm bored, practically everything else interesting online is down, and my thesis paper is taking friggin' FOREVER to print.

[CP5670]

Do any of you really think you're convincing anyone else of anything?

Nah, we're just defending our own ideas. Using Planck's rule along with the rules of resistance to change and that of simplicity, it can be seen that it is almost impossible to "convince" the popular masses of anything unless the ideas are very simple and therefore appealing; they don't need to be logical or anything. Besides, this is fun, and I am going to have to do this later in my life, anyway, so I better get some practice.

Anyway, regarding nationalism, I think it is a foolish idea in any form. Nationalism can be defined as a love for country for no particular reason, and the flaws begin to show up right there; nothing of this sort should ever be done for no reason. The future lies in the realm of science and technology, which has nothing to do with grouping people by location (on which nationalism is based), but rather ideas, and nationalism tends to skew these ideas so that they fit location, essentially decreasing the objective thinking potential of the society as a whole. The only real advantage I can see is that it allows for quick rallying of the ignorant mobs in times of war, but wars will soon be fought with technology alone rather than people.

On the liberal/conservative debate, the whole idea behind civilization is for all participants to forsake certain freedoms to make life easier for everyone. Also, the chief principle behind conservatism is resistance to change (note the name), which is the main reason for the problems seen in humanity today. I would say that communism is the ultimate system here, as it can be thought of as the pinnacle of government systems if only these variables are accounted for, but as history has shown, it has other problems that do not allow it to be easily lent to the workings of the people. I value personal freedom just as much as anyone else but only because it allows for diversity of thought and the emergence of new ideas; the common people will cling to their old ideas due to the rules states earlier, but the intellectuals will still be able to progress and lead the entire society. Personally, I think that state governments should just be abolished and become direct subsidiaries of the national government; the federal government system works quite well, but all the state ones have done is caused trouble and stalled progress in the past. The other key thing is that it should be a crime to bribe any government official with money or otherwise try to change their views by these kinds of means; money is why the big corporations have their lead today in their say in government affairs, and without this they would not be able to compete in such ways.

They're scared of Christianity because they know it's the one faith that has something to it. It's the Truth and they're scared of the Truth.

Sorry, but this is one of the silliest statements I have heard in this thread; it is narrow-minded and has absolutely no rational backing behind it. What if I just said that my ideas are the absolute truth and everything else is wrong, my reason being because I said so?

[Fineus]

Lets save nationalism for another topic if we can please

CP has a point regarding the above Truth statement. Also, Don't try using Pascals wager (you've got more to loose by not worshipping than by worshipping since you go to hell if you don't so it's better to worship and take the chance that god exists). It initially seems a good idea but as near as I can tell it's one more method of control - clever logic used to sheppard people into following one religion.

[Tar-Palantir]

For example, if Hitler had tried to do the same thing in the US, there is no way it would have worked.

You'ld be surprised what people will do. If you saw a group of people beating up one other person would you attempt to intervine? As much as it shames me to say this, I probably wouldn't.

The same thing happen in Germany in the 1930's, people did not want to risk themselves. These were not 'evil' people, I'm sure many of them were people you would feel better for knowing, its just people do not like sticking there head above the parapit. The same could happen, with the right circumstances, to any other 'democratic' country

[Sandwich]

Wow - this topic escaped me for long enough, but no more, I say! Muhahaha....

And before I go on, let me apologize for dredging up some earlier parts in this topic, some of which may have been subsequently answered, but there's a lot I want to comment on. I'm also gonna have to split it up into a couple of posts...

NOTES: I left off on page 4, in case you were wondering...

Originally posted by Kellan
As far as Christ-killing goes, if you look at the Bible, there are certain sections (eg. where Pontius Pilate asks if the Jews want Jesus, as a Jew, back - and they say no) that can be interpreted as pointing the finger of blame for Jesus' death at the Jews. I'm not saying I believe it, or you believe it, but some people believe it - or rather, use it as a conveniently-interpreted excuse for prejudice and discrimination.

Interpreted, yes. And it’s a shame that those people who use that passage of the New Testament to argue one way ignore other passages, such as Matthew 16:21-23:

From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!"
But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."

Or Matthew 26:52-56, Jesus addresses Peter after Peter cut off the ear of one of those who came to arrest Jesus  for trial:

But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"
In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, "Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me. But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled."
Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled.

Last quote, and the most relevant: John 10:15-18:

"As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

Originally posted by Kellan
Finally, I firmly believe that by subscribing to the idea of a 'Jewish race' people are falling into a Nazi trap - a throwback from the Third Reich. It was the Nazis who really pushed the idea that Judaism wasn't a religion, it was a race wth defining genetic and physical characteristics. However, this is clearly false: I can convert to Judaism, for example, but I cannot 'become' black.

Actualy this is a point that had had me confused for a while. You see, my father is Jewish but my mother isn't. So, according to the Bible, which goes according to the father, I am Jewish. But according to the State of Israel, which goes according to the mother (for pre-DNA testing reasons, such as the identity of the mother being positively establishable), I'm not. On my Israeli ID card, the nationality says "American". Other options for that slot are Jewish, Arab, French, etc.

Anyway, it turns out that there are two meanings, interconnected to each other, to the word "Jewish". One is racial, having "Jewish genes" (the same kind of thing as being Irish or Morrocan). The other is your chosen religion, of Judaisim. Now, the funny thing is that one can convert to Judaisim, religiously, and he/she will be counted as being Jewish, racially. Their children will have at least that parent as Jewish.

So you see, the religious aspect of one's "Jewishness" prevails over the physical aspect when the two conflict.

Originally posted by Top Gun
We can't see him, we can't communicate with him (prayer doesn't get a response) but we know that when we die we'll be warped in to see him provided we've obeyed a tyrancial religious leader.  

No, we can't see Him anymore than we can see someone's spirit.

Uhm... prayer does get a response. The problem lies with the fact that many people refuse to take no for an answer.

Tyrannical religious leader? Who, the Pope? No offense to the various Catholics here, but the Pope no more dictates my relationship with God than the man in the moon does. The only physical thing/person I place myself completely subject to is the Bible. I respect my pastors highly (my dad is one, actually), but if it ever came to a situation where they were contradicting the Bible in what they taught or preached... the choice would hurt, but it woudn't be hard.

Originally posted by Wildfire
Oh, before I start the name "God" is a generic term in this post.

Why do people always blame God for war, pain, suffering when it should be obvious that the cause of it all is ourselves.  We have been given (or developed) the ability to make our own choices no matter what excuses we come up with.

That makes us immediately responsible for every decision we take every second of our lives and it is an arrogant notion to expect God to come and clean up our mess as it were.  

If God were to come sweeping down and remove all the problems we ourselves have caused then He/She/It would have destroyed the very thing that seperates us from every other animal on the Earth, our ability to choose.  We would become pets, only allowed to do this and do that.

I'm a Roman cathloic, but over the years I have developed my own personal belief that doesn't really follow the bible or the workings of the church.
Basically it boils down to this...

We have been given the ability to make our own choices, to carve out our own destiny.  

It doesn't matter what religion you come from (its just a different story about the same person) or even if you believe in a God.  As long as you try to do what YOU believe is right (not what others tell you is right) and are prepared to face the consequences of your choices willingly (for good or bad).  

That is enough.

I agree with the first half of what you wrote, but the second half sounds exactly like the creed of the New Age movement: "Do what thou wilt." *concerned look*

Originally posted by Kellan
Come to think of it, why do you have to earn a place in heaven?

Heaven is not the goal of believing - it's the reward. When you run a race, the goal is to finish first. The reward is the umpteen-million waiting for winner. But in running that race, you have to follow the rules that have been set out. Otherwise, even if you reach the finish line first, you'll be disqualified.

Originally posted by CP5670
What "miracles" and "healings?" There is no credible evidence for these. Also, there is still the unanswerable question: how did this god come into existence?

What miracles? My best friend has personally seen God heal people whose legs were not of equal length. He saw the short leg grow out to equal the longer one before his eyes.

The human brain finds it hard to concieve of ultimate expressions of the fourth dimension (time). Try to actually envision existing forever. *ALERT - BRAIN OVERLOAD!*

Same thing with God - He always was.

Originally posted by Kellan
Blaming the Germans specifically is dangerous - it denies the possibility that the same thing could happen anywhere, at any time, again.

Agreed. And to those who are willing to open their eyes and see what's going on around them, they can see that it's happening again, especially - although not exclusively - in Europe. Now.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Maeglamor
Doesn't anyone find it strange that some horrifically bad events in history have been carried out in the name of religion and in the extreme reverse you have acts of astounding compassion occuring for the same cause?

Strange? No. Not when you realize that there is truth and deception. No one believes that he believes a lie. Everyone believes that their way is the truth, the only way. And when these ways contradict one another, it's obvious that one of those sides is correct as far as truth goes, and the others are decieved.

There's also the problem of those who are one the "right" "side", but act in contradiction to that truth. Take for example the Crussdes, which pretty much completely went against what Jesus taught, yet were done in the name of Christianity.

Originally posted by Kellan
It is however ruined by those who don't get the central message...

Amen.

Originally posted by YodaSean
Existance is futile

LOL!!!

Originally posted by wEvil
But the current organisation of everything means that I can't do this.  The pressure is there to earn money and spend it, not in the persuit of fulfillment evolving spiritually, intelectually or in any other way, but just for the sake of it.  It's turning into a kind of sick circus scenario where nobody really feels anything they're doing - you're just going through the motions because you have to.  I mean...its not like you have an alternative way to live anymore, is it?

You've articulated the exact way I feel about living in the western world (incl. Europe...) as opposed to life here in Israel. My dad describes it like this: "In the US you live 9 hours a day, 5 days a week. In Israel you live 24/7." I prefer it here.

Originally posted by Top Gun
We musn't forget that the gospels were written over sixty years after his death and records in those times were patch at best. They may also have succumbed to outside influences like the reformist attitudes of St Paul. Also note that the "Approved version" of the bible was a cut and paste job of various scriptures put together by the Catholics a long time after Jesus died. A lot of what was in the scriptures was manipulated to fulfill the profecy of scriptures beforehand so the Bible's historical credibility is not good. That's not to say it isn't good for cultural  and/or anthropological research but it's certainly not concrete fact.

Actually, I forget who it was, Pontius Pilate or Herod, but one of them did not exist in any historical evidence for a long time. The only thing to point to his existance waas the biblical record. Eventually his name was uncovered in a carving or something documenting a transaction, if I'm not mistaken - I probably am. But the point is that until that discovered, the only proof of his very existance was the Bible.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by nuclear1
I'm a Christian (Lutheran denomination) and a firm believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. This thread is purely upsetting.

Better watch where you go with religion and people's lives.


BOB OF NAZARETH ????!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?


ARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!

Why does this thread upset you? Have you been isolated from society so much so that you didn't know that there are people such as our fellow forumites that don't believe in anything religious? I disagree with of things people say here, but that's no reason to explode at them.

Originally posted by Kellan


Really? Hmm, interesting. I'd always considered it a manufacture of Nazi propaganda. The only thing that I am wondering is if it's the whole "Irish people tend to have orange hair" type thing - thus they are a 'race'. Although you could say that they're racially Celtic.

As I said up above, it's like the Irish thingy.

Originally posted by Kellan
And yes, 5 million non-Jews were annihilated alongside them during the Holocaust, bringing the death toll to about 11 million. However, that pales when compared to 26-50 million Russian losses...

But the Russian losses were in battle, no? The 6 million Jews and 5 million non-Jews was manslaughter. Not that on life is more precious than another, it's just the circumstances of death.

Originally posted by Kellan
Why do I have to be tortured in Christian hell because I refuse to believe in a Christian God? I mean, it's an interesting theological question - what happens to people who don't believe? Is it just 'bad Christians' in hell, or does everyone who isn't either good or Christian end up there?

It's not a "Christian" hell anymore than the shoes I wear are "Christian" shoes (New Balance). My shoes exist, they're real. So is hell, no matter whether you're Christian or Bhuddist or Agnostic.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Thunder
Lets save nationalism for another topic if we can please

*points to thread title*

Originally posted by Thunder CP has a point regarding the above Truth statement. Also, Don't try using Pascals wager (you've got more to loose by not worshipping than by worshipping since you go to hell if you don't so it's better to worship and take the chance that god exists). It initially seems a good idea but as near as I can tell it's one more method of control - clever logic used to sheppard people into following one religion.

Ok, realize that what I'm going to say now is not solely my own opinion, it is the truth (before you flame me, read what I'm going to say) :

Christians like IvoryCruncher and myself are rational beings, who have seen enough evidence, mainly through personal revelations, to convince us that Jesus is Lord. We believe that wholeheartedly. We also believe that acceptance of Jesus' self-sacrifice on the cross is the only way to recieve eternal life.
We also happen to care for everyone here. We honestly do want the best for you - really! So put the two together, and realize why we are saying what we say. It will be a very...unpleasant situation when we're in heaven and someone else, whom we knew on earth, is in hell, asking "Why didn't you tell me?! Why!?!" Well, we are - it's fully your choice from here. Either way, I still love you guys (don't take that the wrong way... )
Personally speaking now, I'll never try to force my faith on anyone. The closest I'll come to that is trying to force that person to understand what I believe and why.

[CP5670]

What miracles? My best friend has personally seen God heal people whose legs were not of equal length. He saw the short leg grow out to equal the longer one before his eyes.

The human brain finds it hard to concieve of ultimate expressions of the fourth dimension (time). Try to actually envision existing forever. *ALERT - BRAIN OVERLOAD!*  

Same thing with God - He always was.

Well, that's not really credible evidence, as I said earlier; more general proof is needed before accepting this. (effect should be reproducible by anyone else under similar conditions) Also, an antimatter leg material portion would have to produced somewhere in reality as well so that the first law of thermodynamics is not violated. Besides, it is not hard at all to envision n-dimensions (including non-integer dimensions) or transfinite periods of time if you use math only and forget about common sense. (which is how the universe works) As I have said before, it could be just as easily said that the material universe "always was."

Uhm... prayer does get a response. The problem lies with the fact that many people refuse to take no for an answer.

If this god has human-like ambitions and picks favorites according to who prays more/better, he isn't much better than a human.

You'ld be surprised what people will do. If you saw a group of people beating up one other person would you attempt to intervine? As much as it shames me to say this, I probably wouldn't.

Actually I wouldn't either, since I am no fighter and wouldn't have much to gain in such a situation.

The same thing happen in Germany in the 1930's, people did not want to risk themselves. These were not 'evil' people, I'm sure many of them were people you would feel better for knowing, its just people do not like sticking there head above the parapit. The same could happen, with the right circumstances, to any other 'democratic' country

It was true that they did not want to put themselves at risk, but going by the accepted cultural philosophy around that time, the state came before the person, and individuals should be readily willing to give up their lives in the interests of the state (Hitler re-emphasized this but it was very prevalent even before him). However, as I said earlier, most people were quite happy with what the new regime (after 1933) was doing in Germany (again, cultural influence), whereas the majority of people were not loyal to the Weimar Republic government (which was democratic) because it accepted the Versailles treaty and the nation was not economically thriving under it.

[ZylonBane]

Originally posted by sandwich
Uhm... prayer does get a response. The problem lies with the fact that many people refuse to take no for an answer.

Are you joking or serious here? Are you saying, "God answers all prayers...  but the answer is always NO."? Because if a God existed, that's the only probable scenario.

What miracles? My best friend has personally seen God heal people whose legs were not of equal length. He saw the short leg grow out to equal the longer one before his eyes.

Then your friend is lying, or was tricked. Isn't it curious that all these supposed faith healings NEVER EVER occur in front of credible witnesses or recording devices?

And to those observing that noone in this thread is going to convince anyone to change their mind... sadly true. Belief in a God is faith... and "faith", by definition, is belief without evidence (and belief without evidence can be argued as a form of gullibility or insanity, but that's another topic...).

[CP5670]

Then your friend is lying, or was tricked. Isn't it curious that all these supposed faith healings NEVER EVER occur in front of credible witnesses or recording devices?

And to those observing that noone in this thread is going to convince anyone to change their mind... sadly true. Belief in a God is faith... and "faith", by definition, is belief without evidence (and belief without evidence can be argued as a form of gullibility or insanity, but that's another topic...).

LOL! No offense meant to anyone, but I found the later part of that really funny... (I agree with all of it)

Planck's rule applies once again here. Also, as Goebbels' law has shown, it is quite easy to trick someone into believing just about anything.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by CP5670
Well, that's not really credible evidence, as I said earlier; more general proof is needed before accepting this. (effect should be reproducible by anyone else under similar conditions...

First of all, it ain't a scientific experiment we're talking about here. Believe me when I say that I like science just as much as the next guy - I'm a sci-fi book addict - but you need to chill with the mindset you seem to be stuck in sometimes... no offense, dude.

Reproducability.... well, if God was in for making a scientific experiment out of it, reproducability wouldn't be a problem. But realize that the person was healed by God's power, not by some person. So hey, if you can manage to convince God to make an experiment out of His miracles, fine by me. Especially since I personally believe that He does not break the physical laws of the universe in anything He does - but that's just my belief. (Example: I "believe in" the Big Bang, but I believe that it was God who did it. )

Originally posted by CP5670
If this god has human-like ambitions and picks favorites according to who prays more/better, he isn't much better than a human.

Well then we're all very blessed not to have a God who has Human-like ambitions, aren't we? He actually does play favorites in a sense, according to the Bible. It says that the Jews are the "apple of God's eye". What does that mean? Well, draw the parallel yourself. If someone pokes you in the apple of your eye (your pupil, FYI), it is, at the very least, an annoyance that you will do something to get rid of, quickly. Also, your view of things is through the apple of your eye. God sees the world through how they treat Israel, or more specifically, the Jews. There's no two ways about it - the Bible makes that very clear.

So back to the prayer thing... God has a plan for this world. He has His perfect will, and He has things which He will allow to happen, even though they may not be ideal (and often are extremely far away from ideal). And of course, there are things which He will absolutely not allow. Examples? He won't allow the Jews to be wiped out. Period. They are His chosen people.
He will, and does, allow people to sin. Yes, Christians too.
And His perfect will? That's a harder one. *thinks* Well, I'm trying to avoid the semi-cliche "anything He says He will do in the Bible" response, although it is as accurate as they get. *thinks some more*

I honestly don't know what to say for this one. I could say something like "for everyone to love Him and believe in Him", but I know that His Word has already said that that will not happen, and so He would not will for His Word to be contradicted. Hmmm... The ony thing I can say with asurety is that His perfect will in my life is for me to follow Him with all my heart.

I try.

Originally posted by ZylonBane
Are you joking or serious here? Are you saying, "God answers all prayers...  but the answer is always NO."? Because if a God existed, that's the only probable scenario.

What miracles? My best friend has personally seen God heal people whose legs were not of equal length. He saw the short leg grow out to equal the longer one before his eyes.

Then your friend is lying, or was tricked. Isn't it curious that all these supposed faith healings NEVER EVER occur in front of credible witnesses or recording devices?

First of all, I was serious (aren't I always serious? ), but I wasn't clear appearently. I didn't mean to say that the answer is always no - far from it. But some people seem to have the mindset of "If I pray for something, God has to do it/cause it to happen", which is wrong. If I pray for God to give me (ther eterlan example among Christian circles...) a pink cadiallac and He doesn't, does that mean that He didn't answer my prayer? No, it means that I didn't quite pray in line with His will, or not even in line with something He was willing to allow, and He answered with a simple "no."

Define a credible witness. No, wait - lemme define one for you: someone who is not a Christian/believer/whatever, right? Reasonable, I agree that credible witnesses are very important - nowhere more so than in the volatile situation here in Israel (repeat after me: I will not veer off into politics. ).

Ok, so we're agreed on the need for a credible witness. And I'll assume that you agree on my definition of a credible witness; if you don't, please say so.

Imagine yourself, as you are - atheist, agnostic, whatever, in a "Christian" meeting. You're impartial at best, probably closer to rejection of all the "religious stuff", verging on internal hostility towards it all. But then you see with your own 2 eyes someone get prayed over for an infirmity - not something as questionable as back pains or cancer (you can't see then and there that that person indeed does have that infirmity/sickness). Something like having a shriveled hand, or a short leg, or something of the like. You see that person with his/her unquestionable infirmity. Then you see that infirmity change to wholeness - the hand becomes healthy, or the leg lengthens. Now, would that theoretical situation be what you ask of a credible witness? Again, I'll assume a "yes" - if not, say so.

But, continuing that theoretical situation, what would you be thinking? Would you not believe then and there that that person was healed - truly and miraculously? Could you possibly deny what you just saw - deny your own sight? I think not. So the wuestion now is: Would you then still be counted as a credible witness?

[CP5670]

God sees the world through how they treat Israel, or more specifically, the Jews. There's no two ways about it - the Bible makes that very clear.

They are His chosen people.
He will, and does, allow people to sin. Yes, Christians too.

You know, this is exactly what Adolf Hitler claimed in 1929 except that Israel would be replaced with Germany and the Bible would be replaced with Mein Kampf. The Aryans are the chosen people of god and the superior race, and the true born leader of the people (i.e. himself) can "sin" all he wants and does not have to be tied down with petty things like morals, while everyone else must follow these things. If your statements there are true, then his must be equally true as well.

First of all, it ain't a scientific experiment we're talking about here. Believe me when I say that I like science just as much as the next guy - I'm a sci-fi book addict - but you need to chill with the mindset you seem to be stuck in sometimes... no offense, dude.

Reproducability.... well, if God was in for making a scientific experiment out of it, reproducability wouldn't be a problem. But realize that the person was healed by God's power, not by some person. So hey, if you can manage to convince God to make an experiment out of His miracles, fine by me. Especially since I personally believe that He does not break the physical laws of the universe in anything He does - but that's just my belief. (Example: I "believe in" the Big Bang, but I believe that it was God who did it. ) [

Actually, since we think (and argue) by logic, it only makes sense to go logically here. This is a part of the basis behind the first fundamental assumption of my ideas. According to logic and its "double extension," science, none of that stuff can be taken seriously without additional evidence since it is all based on faith, or in other words, gullibility and irrationality, two traits inherent in the common human mind. (don't mean to offend anyone, but this is an argument after all )

Well then we're all very blessed not to have a God who has Human-like ambitions, aren't we?

Not really; just look at the wretched things we have turned into compared to what we could have been. (again, think from a purely logical standpoint and not a common sense human standpoint) But if this god has human-like ambitions, then he can be just as easily tricked and subdued as humans can.

God has a plan for this world.

So let's try to go against it just to see how he reacts. (knowledge is worth more than anything by the rule of purpose) This is how experimental science works.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by CP5670
You know, this is exactly what Adolf Hitler claimed in 1929 except that Israel would be replaced with Germany and the Bible would be replaced with Mein Kampf. The Aryans are the chosen people of god and the superior race, and the true born leader of the people (i.e. himself) can "sin" all he wants and does not have to be tied down with petty things like morals, while everyone else must follow these things. If your statements there are true, then his must be equally true as well.

Ok, well here we have a very divided point of view. I believe fully in the Bible. I do not accept Hitler as anything except a human being (I'm talking absolutely here, ultimately he proved himself to be morally quite below the human, or should I say humane, standard). You (appearently) hold Hitler in the same respect as God (which is to say, barely, if at all), and the Bible with Mein Kampf.

Much of my arguments here are based on accepting the Bible as the Word of God, I realize that. I also realize that that's a point of view which is in the minority here.

Originally posted by CP5670
Actually, since we think (and argue) by logic, it only makes sense to go logically here. This is a part of the basis behind the first fundamental assumption of my ideas. According to logic and its "double extension," science, none of that stuff can be taken seriously without additional evidence since it is all based on faith, or in other words, gullibility and irrationality, two traits inherent in the common human mind. (don't mean to offend anyone, but this is an argument after all )

Ok, I can see your point of view. I guess you're just arguing/speaking from the basis which you both know best and believe - I can't fault you for that; I do the same.

Originally posted by CP5670
Not really; just look at the wretched things we have turned into compared to what we could have been. (again, think from a purely logical standpoint and not a common sense human standpoint) But if this god has human-like ambitions, then he can be just as easily tricked and subdued as humans can.

Yes, we have turned into wretched things, haven't we? But I think that your definition of how to "fix" this situation is, at the very least, slightly different then mine.

Originally posted by CP5670
So let's try to go against it just to see how he reacts. (seriously; knowledge is worth more than anything) This is how experimental science works.

Ok then - this is something that really interests me. I'll leave the "going against" to you, for obvious reasons. But to go against something, don't you need to know exactly what that something is in the first place? No, I'm not trying to trick you into reading the Bible or anything. What I'm getting at is that if you know what God, through the Bible, states as His will, you will see that by and large, the world is already "going against" it with great fervor. Look where it's gotten us.

[Styxx]

Okay, I don't have the time to read through all this - can someone summarize it?

[CP5670]

Ok, well here we have a very divided point of view. I believe fully in the Bible. I do not accept Hitler as anything except a human being (I'm talking absolutely here, ultimately he proved himself to be morally quite below the human, or should I say humane, standard). You (appearently) hold Hitler in the same respect as God (which is to say, barely, if at all), and the Bible with Mein Kampf.

Much of my arguments here are based on accepting the Bible as the Word of God, I realize that. I also realize that that's a point of view which is in the minority here.

Okay, sounds cool, but that's not really an argument there, is it? Therefore, for the purposes of this thread Hitler can be said to be just as much a prophet of god (or god himself) as Christ.

Ok then - this is something that really interests me. I'll leave the "going against" to you, for obvious reasons. But to go against something, don't you need to know exactly what that something is in the first place? No, I'm not trying to trick you into reading the Bible or anything. What I'm getting at is that if you know what God, through the Bible, states as His will, you will see that by and large, the world is already "going against" it with great fervor. Look where it's gotten us. :rolleyes

Wait, but didn't you say that the Bible contained what god wanted to see in the future of humanity? And although the world is going against his wishes right now, he doesn't appear to be doing anything, so either he does not care (in which case people can sin all they want) or we are not annoying him enough. Have everyone denounce god as the great satan of humanity and change their mindset to reflect that (an easy task), and see if that gets his attention.

Yes, we have turned into wretched things, haven't we? But I think that your definition of how to "fix" this situation is, at the very least, slightly different then mine.

Actually, I think I could have rephrased that a bit. We were extremely wretched beings at the beginning, of the same intelligence as the monkeys we evolved from, but over thousands of years we have become much better with the advent of civilization and technology; however, we still have a much longer way to go.

Okay, I don't have the time to read through all this - can someone summarize it?

Basically, there is one pro-religion party and one anti-religion party. (you can probably guess which side I am on) Some sub-arguments going on within that as well. (science, history, nationalism, forms of government) To get the details you'll need to read some bits of it.

[Kellan]

Originally posted by Styxx
Okay, I don't have the time to read through all this - can someone summarize it?

Some people believe in God, some don't. Neither side will accept they are 'wrong' (naturally) so we're going round in a fairly big circle, though it gets better defined, and more polarised, each time.

[Top Gun]

Originally posted by sandwich
I believe fully in the Bible.

Originally posted by sandwich
Much of my arguments here are based on accepting the Bible as the Word of God, I realize that. I also realize that that's a point of view which is in the minority here.

Interesting, so I take it that you believe that, that all the below is the "word of god". It's amazing how people manage to pick and choose the parts of the bible that are to be obeyed and those that aren't.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son. . . bring him out unto the elders of his city. . .And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you. . ."

 

Psalm 137:9
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

Malachi 2:3
"Behold, I will corrupt your seed and spread dung upon your faces."

Deuteronomy 28:53
"And thou shalt eat of the fruit of thine own body, that of thy sons and of thy daughers, which the LORD thy God hath given thee"

[CP5670]

If that is the "word of god," this god is obviously a pretty stupid person... (contradictions abound)

[Zeronet]

Originally posted by CP5670
If that is the "word of god," this god is obviously a pretty stupid person... (contradictions abound)

Can you be any more insultive?