Author Topic: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread  (Read 8915 times)

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Offline RazorsKiss

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Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
Back on topic - what else do we need for this post?

We'll worry about the MP limits later, it seems.  Good enough.

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Offline Unknown Target

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Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
EDIT: For some reason I saw the last post as still having to do with the MP discussion. I'll leave this here only because I spent so much time typing it :p Ignore it at your leisure, though (although I do think it is vitally important).

Razor, just popping into the thread here, but in regards to multiplayer: I suggested to taylor that the coders (or at least the SCP leads) should have a sit down with multi players before the decisions on the "most important" multi fixes are. That way, you guys can finally get some feedback from the people who really need the features. Reading more thoroughly into the thread (it's too late for me to read all of it, 3:37 AM and I'm tired :)  ), it seems that this is really something that's pretty necessary.

I'd like to both disagree and agree with the statement that FS2 has always been and will be a primarily single player game. Yes, FS2 has always been about SP, and yes, that will be a great focus in the future - but the fact of the matter is, multiplayer is more fun than singleplayer, in many regards. They're two different kinds of fun but neglecting multiplayer for the sake of single player is just ludicrous in today's world (NOTE: I'm not directing this at you or anyone in particular, I'm just stating my beliefs). Many of us want FS2 to get more well known and have more players - the only way that's going to happen is if we have a solid, easy to use and easy to understand multiplayer component. We can still have excellently crafted storylines with FS2 multiplayer - that's the beauty of coop - but we need a better system than what we have now. I'm sorry, but I think that sticking with an "SP above all else" approach will keep FS2 in the semi-obscurity that it's in.

If you want an example, I can provide one: the BtRL release. That release was a multi-centric release, it's what we said both internally and externally. When we finally got it out, the reaction was absolutely massive. Most people who played it loved it, and when they could get on multiplayer they thought it was some of the best stuff since sliced bread.

Now, notice I said "could" get on multiplayer. Tell me if this makes sense to you:
To register on multiplayer, players had to...

1) Register on a third party, out-of-game website.
2) Confirm that registration by email.
3) Follow several steps to open up router ports - many of our fans aren't that computer literate, and were completely lost there.
4) Hope that the version you have is the latest version, because running the auto-update isn't mandatory when launching multi.
5) Go back into the game and input your login name and password in a screen that's actually two sub screens away from the ACTUAL multiplayer lobby button.
6) Put in their login info and connect to FS2NetD.

But here's the kicker - that would only work sometimes. Many times players could see some games but not others, or only one game out of 3, or they would see their friend's game, refresh, and it'd be gone. Basically, the system was broken. How broken? Well, out of a 100,000+ download release, we got, on average, three servers with about 10 people each on them for the first week or so. After that, we were lucky to get one server with 4 people a night. Now, it's pretty much completely dead again.


Compare that registration process with, say, Relic's Dawn of War.

1) Open the game.
2) Click "Multiplayer"
3) Input your account. If you don't have an account, click "Register" and register a new one right there, in-game.
4) Click Go (or whatever, forget the exact name).
5) Game checks for new patches. If one's found, it tells you to download. You click yes, it downloads in game.
6) Get dropped into the lobby. You're good to go.


Much simpler for those players out there who haven't been playing the same game for ten years - the same players we need/want to attract.


Yes, SP needs improvement. Yes, it will always be improved - but like was already mentioned - FS2 is one of the best SP experiences out there. So why are we constantly improving something that's already at the top of it's game? Why don't we move on to the next big thing, the next thing that will secure FS2's future, and needs improvement the most. We don't need another SEXP that only five or so FREDers  will use, we need a multiplayer system so that we can actually revive what used to be a thriving community.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 03:03:47 am by Unknown Target »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
Next time, finish the thread. :p Cause I made the same comment.

The entire engine has been designed around SP. Yes, multi can be improved and fixed in many ways including possibly raising limits but it is not the primary focus of the engine and never has been.

Back on topic - what else do we need for this post?

We'll worry about the MP limits later, it seems.  Good enough.

Sounds good enough to me. What else we need, well any of the other improvements mentioned in this thread. UT mentions a good one about registration too.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 03:19:08 am by karajorma »
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Offline Unknown Target

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Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
You seemed to be implying that we should give up MP at the expense of SP, on the basis that the engine was designed for mostly SP. I don't want bigger player limits or anything like that - all I keep campaigning for is a streamlined multiplayer interface, where all you have to do is click a few buttons and you're in the game. The current flaming hoop act that you have to perform to get multiplayer to work is ludicrous. The fact that we had to release BtRL without dedicated server support took away at least 70% of our potential player base. And the fact that we don't have bog-standard game options like cycling maps (missions) on said dedicated servers is similarly ludicrous.

What would get people playing BtRL and FS2 and every other mod out there, is if all people had to do was follow some simple steps, and when they hit the lobby, they find a set of always running and always cycling servers. No, the servers don't need to be maintained by SCP either - kara, you remember the dozens of requests we got for people asking to host dedicated servers for us. If we get basic stuff like that, we've come that much closer to modernizing FS2's multiplayer support.


Agh, I've been drawn into restarting the debate. Ok, I'm done (I hope).

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
Like I said. Read the thread. Then comment.
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Offline Kaine

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Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
I too think a call for artists and modellers should really go in there- as much as i love the FSUP guys, they're really struggling in there atm. For an engine that is so ready to accomodate a slew of new graphical content, it's a real shame.

 

Offline Turambar

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Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
I too think a call for artists and modellers should really go in there- as much as i love the FSUP guys, they're really struggling in there atm. For an engine that is so ready to accomodate a slew of new graphical content, it's a real shame.

we're just all off doing SoL or BTRL or SWC or any number of super epic huge 'lets make everything new!' projects.

theyre fun!
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
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Offline DaBrain

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Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
Hmm... Never forget about the roots. ;)

I'm still working on content for FS2 secretly.
--------------------------------------------------
SoL is looking for a sound effect artist
Please PM me in case you want to apply
---------------------------------
Shadows of Lylat - A Freespace 2 total conversion
(hosted by Game-Warden)
----------------------------------

 

Offline Inquisitor

Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
A GameDev post is a great idea ;)

The arguments are silly ;)
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Offline RazorsKiss

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Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
Glad you think it's a good idea.

I would, however, like some more input from the SCP folks, as to what they want in their post :D
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
or any number of super epic huge 'lets make everything new!' projects.

I wish :(


This was actually a really poor time to announce my TC.

 

Offline Inquisitor

Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
What you have there is pretty good, our needs are the usual smorgasborg, taylor and goob would/should speak to specific needs for the SCP. Network, Collision, Physics, Graphics, UI. A desire to contribute to a community project, as for bragging, I'd pull liberally from the various existing high profile TC's, rather than "our" projects, things the SCP has been used in, i.e. TBP and BTRL being the two extremely notable ones that have leveraged the SCP. You could (if taylor wanted) always point out folks like taylor's involvement with icculus.org or my involvement with Max Gaming, but the real meat is what people are doing with the work the SCP is accomplishing, so if I were making the post I might say:

"The SCP has been leveraged by a number of projects, recently by "The Babylon Project" (URL) and "Beyond the Red Line" (URL) as well as countless story driven campaigns set in the FS2 universe."

Interested folks should come here and post, best way to get involved, and we like to see some code samples before we turn people loose.

Otherwise it doesn't need to be too elaborate.
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Offline RazorsKiss

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Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
I'll do a revised writeup once I get back from camping.  (Middle of next week)

We'll see if you like it enough for me to post it.

I think I'll include a direct link to the SCP forum, the CVS site, so they can look at the code a bit.

Do you want me to make a post on this forum  (simultaneous with the post on gamedev) to direct-link them to, where they can post that they're interested, and get in touch with you further about code samples and etc, from there?  Or is there a better idea?

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Offline Inquisitor

Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
That sounds like a great idea.
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Offline RazorsKiss

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Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
So, I guess I need a bit more info.  What, at least in a general way, needs fixing in the general categories I have listed below, and what other categories would you suggest?


Project name:
The Freespace 2 Source Code Project

Brief description:
The Source Code Project has been in existence since 2002, when Dave Baranec (one of the individuals who worked on Freespace 2), released the Freespace 2 source on the now-defunct Volition Watch.  Since then, the FSSCP has been adding features and updating the engine regularly. 

The FSSCP is headed up by Goober5000 and Taylor, with help from the original project coordinator, Inquisitor.  As project leaders they keep the team organized and working towards set goals. They will request a 'code freeze' before a major release, when programmers aren't supposed to add new features, and instead focus on cleaning up existing bugs. When the team is not preparing for a release, individual programmers are given a lot of leeway in what they can work on.

Target aim:
Freeware.

Compensation:
This is a volunteer project. 

Technology:
Codebase: C/C++
Scripting: LUA
Graphics API: OpenGL


Talent needed:

Programmers:

A. Collision Detection - needs a major revamp to handle higher-poly models.
B. Network/multiplayer programmers - this is one of the least-updated portions of the project. 
C. Physics programmers - (wha?)


NOTE - I need specifics here, folks.  What exactly needs fixing, in which area.

For collision - what is the problem, exactly, that needs to be fixed?
For network/multiplayer - we need join-in-progress, standalone servers, streamlining the setup/settings process (server and client side?) - what else?
For physics - I have no idea :D  What needs to be fixed?

Graphics:

A. HTL models to "update" the original FS2 content
B. Enhancements of the UI
C. ?

(How's this work for a catch-all?)
In General:

There is a very long laundry list of bugs, feature requests, and general modernization tasks which need attention.

Team structure:
Project Administrators:

Inquisitor
Goober5000
Taylor


Team Members:

There are approximately 30 people who currently work on the project in their spare time, but a dozen regular contributors.


Website:
Developer's website
Community website

Contacts:
(How do you want this listed?)

Previous Work by Team:
Several SCP members have been involved in various mod and game projects.  Inquisitor is involved with Max Gaming, the developers of the Lore series, and taylor is involved with icculus.org.  This is not a new project, either.  Several members have been involved with this project since it's inception, as well.

Additional Info:

As mentioned, there are multiple Total Conversions leveraging the SCP engine. 

The Babylon Project
Beyond The Red Line
Wing Commander Saga
Shadows of Lylat
Fate of the Galaxy
Fringespace

There are also dozens of mods, within the enhanced SCP engine, which rely on the SCP team's work as well. 

Feedback:
Any.
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Offline achtung

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Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
This should be interesting.
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Offline RazorsKiss

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Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
Anything?
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Offline Inquisitor

Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
You could probably link directly to Mantis :)
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Offline Kaine

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Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
Quote
A. HTL models to "update" the original FS2 content
B. Enhancements of the UI
C. ?

"HTL" is a bit of a forum colloquialism, probably not the best term to use.
"Updating and modernization of game assets (including 3d models, skins & art)" sounds better (to me, but I'm bias :))

UI Enhancement is almost as much a programming thing as it is an art thing, new art is next to useless without the code behind it.

 

Offline Inquisitor

Re: GameDev Post WIP - discussion thread
Honestly, what we REALLY need is bug fixers and people with strong leadership skills and good coding practices. People who can help us herd the cats and make this a stable, useful bit of game programming.

We can't dream of new big features or enhancements until we have a stable code base.

So, if I were looking for people to hire, I'd say:

-Performance and optimization on all aspects of the engine

-Multiplatform compatibility optimzation

-Experienced debug people/bug fixers

-Team leaders experienced with prioritization

That's my wish list for help. I have a few very burned out, very talented folks who need general help thoughout the codebase. Our focus has got to shift to QA and bug fixing before we can take on any more huge projects. Its not glamourous, but it is necessary.
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