Author Topic: Dishonored?  (Read 5488 times)

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Offline Spoon

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yes, technology should remain stagnant. Who the **** cares about pushing the envelope? just make games look like they come from the late 90's. who the **** cares?
It has remained stagnant for the past 7 years. Apparantly only the chosen few of the PC master race have cared so far.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline newman

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I think the point that Battuta was trying to make is that making the graphics and artistic side of the game really good takes a lot of time, money, and effort that could be more constructively spent elsewhere.

First he said the graphics are fine, and when it turned out they're not he said it doesn't matter since you can have a good game without it. As for better spending time and resources elsewhere, if you charge full price, you should deliver the goods in full as well. Got to love HLP; I specifically said I actually liked the game even though it has dated graphics specifically to avoid this sort of a debate. Worked out really well..

Loving a game doesn't mean it's perfect. This one happens to have a flaw in the looks department. Some may care, some may not, but graphics aren't irrelevant. You want to balance your time and effort, not spend it all on some venues and then leave one sorely lacking. I wouldn't have said anything if the game didn't look so very dated - but the graphics are way below mediocre as far as today's standards go. Making them at least at a mediocre level by today's standards wouldn't have taken that much more work, either. Why have ugly polygonal objects when you can have them round is beyond me - it's like someone wanted to make sure this thing will run on the iphone...

It's a shame precisely because it is a good game. Imagine how that world would look if it had, say, Witcher 2's level of art standards?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 12:47:47 pm by newman »
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Offline General Battuta

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I do prefer a good game with bad graphics to a dumb, great looking game, but dismissing graphics standards as completely irrelevant in a today's AAA first person-based game doesn't strike me as the best approach to modern game design.

I didn't mean to imply that, but I think it's too simplistic to say 'more graphics = better'. Development is (obviously I don't really have to tell you this) all about tradeoffs and resource allocation. So I'd quibble specifically with this:

Quote
I'm not saying graphics alone make a good game. I'm saying you can have a great game with bad graphics. And you can make that game even better if you improve it's graphics.

All else being equal, maybe...but all else isn't equal. Would Minecraft be a better game with better graphics? Probably not. It probably wouldn't exist. It likely would've tanked and burned.

Dishonored is running on UE3. It's from a studio that clearly doesn't have a vast amount of horsepower (or, in all likelihood, a vast amount of money). Their talents lie in design. I don't think they could've made the game 'AAA gorgeous' without just slathering bloom on everything and ****ing their design process over. The resources they would've put into graphics would've come at a cost.

I could definitely go for some higher-res textures and a lot more AA, but otherwise, I can't say I need any more. And returning to this point:

Quote
That's not the point. The point is, if you make a Deus Ex sequel today that looks like DX1, you will get called on it.

Why, though? Because a 'AAA game' from a 'AAA studio' should look 'AAA'? Maybe...but indie titles, F2P titles - these are sectors that are exploding. Setting aside the expectation framing of 'this came from AAA studio', do graphics matter at all in how much we enjoy a game?

I played Deus Ex last year. In my subjective world this was a game that came out last year. Heck, I played XCOM for the first time last year...and having just gotten into the new one, sure, it looks better, but the leap from sprites to gorgeous UE3 3D hasn't meaningfully altered my experience. Half-Life 2 remains one of the most attractive games I've ever played because it's so crisp.

So:

Quote
Note I'm not saying the game is bad - in fact, I enjoy Dishonored quite a bit - but you can't tell me graphics don't make a contribution towards immersing you in the game's world.

I think I can tell you that.

Quote
I really don't understand why the art standards were so low in this case; I'd love the play the exact same game that has contemporary graphics.

I just don't follow your reasoning here. I doubt at any point in design they said set art standards to low. They didn't have the time, or the resources, or the expertise and knowhow, or the memory budget on consoles (I am thinking particularly the latter).

e:

Quote
You want to balance your time and effort, not spend it all on some venues and then leave one sorely lacking. I wouldn't have said anything if the game didn't look so very dated - but the graphics are way below mediocre as far as today's standards go. Making them at least at a mediocre level by today's standards wouldn't have taken that much more work, either. Why have ugly polygonal objects when you can have them round is beyond me - it's like someone wanted to make sure this thing will run on the iphone...

I guess I just don't have your eyes.

 

Offline General Battuta

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First he said the graphics are fine, and when it turned out they're not he said it doesn't matter since you can have a good game without it.

e: nm I got a bit snappy here, but I hope you can see how this would come off kinda high-handed

 

Offline newman

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Speaking as an artist, you make a fallacious assumption that making a 12-sided cylinder is a lot less work than making a 24-sided one. A lot of the low detail in the game has incredibly low poly assets. The up side is you could probably run it on a very old system, but as far as amount of work goes there's no magical super-expensive skill that precludes lower-budget studios from making a gorgeous game. Making it look absolutely top-end is a lot more work, but making the graphics at least acceptable wouldn't have taken that much more work or increased the costs by a huge amount.

Comparing to Minecraft isn't the best of analogies, either; of course there are games where graphics don't take a second, but the last place when it comes to enjoyment. Minecraft is a different type of a game - try making Dishonored or a Witcher sequel with Minecraft-level graphics and see how well you do.

It's a very basic logical error:

1. Minecraft's graphics are irrelevant to enjoyment of that game.
2. Graphics are irrelevant to enjoyment of every game.

Um, yea, but don't expect to pass your high school logic exam with that :P Saying graphics don't play a part in immersion is something we'll have to agree to disagree on. I would love to have seen Dunwall with graphics on a Witcher 2 level.

I'd still totally recommend this game to anyone who loved DeusEx or the Thief series. I'm just saying two things here:

- graphics look dated;
- this is a shame.

Some may care, some may not, we're not all the same. It's still a game well worth playing, but saying it looks dated is a completely valid argument from someone who paid 50€ for it - as much as that same person saying it's still worth the price.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 01:04:00 pm by newman »
You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here! - Jayne Cobb

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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I will make it clear. Graphics are, and will always be, nothing more than a nice bonus to any game, ever. It's as simple as that.

If a game needs graphics to make itself interesting, then it is a game that has utterly failed. It is that simple.

If the low graphics of a game are bothering you enough that you can't enjoy it, then it is you that are failing. It is, again, that simple.
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Offline General Battuta

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Comparing to Minecraft isn't the best of analogies, either; of course there are games where graphics don't take a second, but the last place when it comes to enjoyment. Minecraft is a different type of a game - try making Dishonored or a Witcher sequel with Minecraft-level graphics and see how well you do.

It's a very basic logical error:

1. Minecraft's graphics are irrelevant to enjoyment of that game.
2. Graphics are irrelevant to enjoyment of every game.

I actually don't think this is a logical error. A Dishonored or Witcher sequel should be able to succeed solely on the strength of its systems and narrative. The Witcher less so perhaps, but Dishonored is special because of its approach to systems, the same approach DX and Thief used.

 

Offline newman

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If the low graphics of a game are bothering you enough that you can't enjoy it, then it is you that are failing. It is, again, that simple.

You're just failing to read here, since I've said I enjoyed the game in pretty much every post I made in this thread. As for the rest, agree to disagree. It's a bit like saying that the design of a product's package is irrelevant if the product itself is great. Sure, but a well designed package will make it more presentable and, by extension, make it easier to sell to a wider audience. And I'm an industrial, not a graphics designer; still, negating the value of one department's work because you think yours is more important is the wrong approach to things. Of course graphics aren't gameplay and of course you can enjoy a game with bad graphics, as much as you can love a great blender that came in an abysmal package. But how many people are going to miss out on it precisely because of the package? The competition is huge these days and presentation is important - if we can't agree on that one then further discussion is pointless. But I'll never concede graphics are totally irrelevant - while not necessarily so, they can contribute to immersing the player in the game's world quite dramatically.

I actually don't think this is a logical error. A Dishonored or Witcher sequel should be able to succeed solely on the strength of its systems and narrative.

Then make a similar game with a great story and narrative, and make it a text-based adventure with no graphics at all. Then charge 50€ for it. That'll be a great test for your claim.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 01:26:17 pm by newman »
You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here! - Jayne Cobb

 

Offline General Battuta

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Then make a similar game with a great story and narrative, and make it a text-based adventure with no graphics at all. Then charge 50€ for it. That'll be a great test for your claim.

I certainly wouldn't charge $50 for it, but at another price point, concomitant with the development costs, I have no doubt this would move gangbusters.

Anyway this argument is all a bit tangential as I think Dishonored is gorgeous.  :p

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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If the low graphics of a game are bothering you enough that you can't enjoy it, then it is you that are failing. It is, again, that simple.
You're just failing to read here
Where did I say I was talking about you in particular ? I was making a general statement.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline newman

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Where did I say I was talking about you in particular ? I was making a general statement.

I think it's easy to see how that would look like it was referred to me, but fair enough. We all agree Dishonored is a good game, I just don't get why I get called out for saying it looks dated. Still, I have a game to complete so I'm done here :)
You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here! - Jayne Cobb

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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It's a bit like saying that the design of a product's package is irrelevant if the product itself is great. Sure, but a well designed package will make it more presentable and, by extension, make it easier to sell to a wider audience.
You are assuming the number of sales is a reliable way to measure the quality of a product. It is obviously not.


I actually don't think this is a logical error. A Dishonored or Witcher sequel should be able to succeed solely on the strength of its systems and narrative.

Then make a similar game with a great story and narrative, and make it a text-based adventure with no graphics at all. Then charge 50€ for it. That'll be a great test for your claim.
Same thing. There are a number of awesome games that didn't sell well. For example, that obscure, utterly unknown game called Freespace 2.

Some awesome games also don't sell at all ! I don't remember Diaspora making even 1$ of profit, so it must utterly suck !

But I'll never concede graphics are totally irrelevant - while not necessarily so, they can contribute to immersing the player in the game's world quite dramatically.
I never said it's irrelevant. To quote myself, it is "a nice bonus". As a bonus quality, it is on the very bottom of the scale of relevant factors to judge the quality of a game, but it's there.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 02:04:49 pm by MatthTheGeek »
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline newman

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You are assuming the number of sales is a reliable way to measure the quality of a product. It is obviously not.

I'm really puzzled how you came to that conclusion. I never said anything of the sort. What I did say was good presentation can be a good way to up the number of sales, and that good graphics can help with immersing the player in the game's world (it's certainly not the only way of doing that, but it helps).


Same thing. There are a number of awesome games that didn't sell well. For example, that obscure, utterly unknown game called Freespace 2.

Again, we're discussing quality of graphics and how that helps, and certainly not the number of sales as a measure of a game's quality, nor was this ever implied. FS2, btw, had awesome graphics for when it was released. It must have been a really shallow game with no substance there. I know you didn't say that but why should that prevent me from claiming you did? :)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 03:04:55 pm by newman »
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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And again, how is that relevant to the quality of a game ?
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline newman

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And again, how is that relevant to the quality of a game ?

I think if you actually go read what I maintained from the start you'll see I've been saying Dishonored is a good game. I feel silly just repeating that so many times already. Yes, good graphics would have been nicer, and to prevent this sort of crap I've been adding "but it's still a good game" as a safety measure in every post! Doesn't seem to help as people like you still assume my message is "graphics = quality", or equally baseless "number of sales = quality". I guess even directly saying that's not what I'm saying doesn't help.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 03:09:14 pm by newman »
You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here! - Jayne Cobb

 
Oh look, another argument between people conflating graphics and aesthetics and those who aren't! How novel!
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Offline TrashMan

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I say DNF is better. :D
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Offline BloodEagle

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I'm coming into this kind of late, and obviously a lot of what I'm about to say is relative, but....

-Art / Graphics != Texture Resolution
-Good Art > Higher Texture Resolution
^(although there is a balance to be maintained)
-Good Art's main purpose is to make things visually interesting (see: entertaining).
-Good Art™ can cause the player to forgive other flaws in the game, because the scene itself is interesting enough to balance out uninteresting elements of the gameplay. (see also: cinematography / plot)

Now look at the pretty screenshots:
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/595857590412748837/43A395A69551A7CE65FC34C601494B22B77E0957/
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/595856594251027474/DFB8AB2B9A889ACBC4206D2D5E45F7C698615B06/

If that game weren't so damned pretty I would have quit playing weeks ago over all of the bugs.

 

Offline Scotty

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This whole conversation makes it painfully apparent that gamers today have a rather inflated sense of entitlement when it comes to games.

 

Offline The E

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If that game weren't so damned pretty I would have quit playing weeks ago over all of the bugs.

You would have quit playing a game weeks ago that only came out last week?


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