[Kamikaze]

A disturbing look into the mentalities of soldiers in Iraq:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/28/AR2006072801492.html

[aldo_14]

Well, at least he's honest about it..........

[Harbinger of DOOM]

Yes, but its disturbing.
How the hell do these people get into the Army?
Don't they do background checks or something?

[aldo_14]

Yes, but its disturbing.
How the hell do these people get into the Army?
Don't they do background checks or something?

Well, do you think 'subject is predisposed to killing' would be bad for the army?

[IPAndrews]

Wouldn't you rather they were in the army?

[karajorma]

Wouldn't you rather they were in the army?

Considering that the army gives them weapons and trains them how to be better at killing, no. What happens when they get out of the army and are back amongst civilians anyway?

[Colonol Dekker]

They join the American postal service?

[IPAndrews]

They miss filling jolly foreigners with hot lead and have to rejoin the army?

[Fineus]

Surely part of the point of boot camp / etc. is to turn the individual human into something that doesn't think, doesn't feel compassion for his enemy but is garunteed to pull the trigger when it is required of him. You desensitise a man to death, call his enemy a gook or a zip (anything but a "human") and you have a man who is ready to kill.

I don't know why this is suprising. Perhaps the human races moral code isn't quite up to looking this sort of thing in the face.

[Colonol Dekker]

What the kronk is a ZIP?   

[NGTM-1R]

Ever since S.L.A. Marshall did a study during WWII where he discovered that the majority of infantrymen were really sort of extras, and most of the direct man-to-man fighting was done by a small number of them, armies have spent a lot of time just training their troops to shoot at people. Humans are not by nature killers of fellow humans.

On the other hand, I'm fairly sure I know what the primary motivation behind this is. It's actually stupidly simple when you think about it. Nietzche was right. Fight monsters and you want to kill them. And from where they're sitting, they're fighting monsters, people who kill indiscriminately, who obey none of the rules of civilized warfare, who neither ask nor offer quarter. This is not a unique occurance. It happened with Allied forces fighting the Japanese in WWII, it happened in Vietnam, it's probably happened in every large-scale guerilla conflict since the dawn of the 20th century.

[Colonol Dekker]

Too much Doom maybe? That old argument is bound to come up in the media.....

[Kamikaze]

It's probably true that military training will desensitize a person, but private Green's problem wasn't that. The article mentioned he had a criminal record and drug/alcohol problems. Maybe he should've been screened out.

[aldo_14]

It's probably true that military training will desensitize a person, but private Green's problem wasn't that. The article mentioned he had a criminal record and drug/alcohol problems. Maybe he should've been screened out.

That might be seen as the type of personality perfect for 'moulding', though.  I don't mean in the sense of being an ideal killing machine, but perhaps they would think it was the type of person who would be easily / effectively converted to an order-following soldier; the sort of 'all they need is a bit of discipline' type approach.  i.e. take someone with nothing and give them something, and they'll follow you.

[Fineus]

You run a lot of risks doing that though.. example; A known pedophile is allowed into active service and sent out to Iraq. He kills a few enemy troops and does his part.. then proceeds to rape a classroom of school children out there. The military knew he was a convicted pedophile before allowing him into service.

I'm sure you can see the kind of backlash this scenario would counjur. What were the military doing, putting this known rapist of children into a situation where he could do it again?

[aldo_14]

You run a lot of risks doing that though.. example; A known pedophile is allowed into active service and sent out to Iraq. He kills a few enemy troops and does his part.. then proceeds to rape a classroom of school children out there. The military knew he was a convicted pedophile before allowing him into service.

I'm sure you can see the kind of backlash this scenario would counjur. What were the military doing, putting this known rapist of children into a situation where he could do it again?

Oh, I agree.  i'm not saying that mindset is correct, just that they might have it.

[Colonol Dekker]

The killer instinct is inherantly dormant in all of us, as you say, It just takes the right "circumstances" to allow it to surface. As one with prior military experience i can say, quite a few people who in normal civilian life would be quite docile persons; under combat conditions (simulated or otherwise) presented quite an overly (above normal army requirements) aggressive nature.

[aldo_14]

There's a difference between killer instinct and 'fight-or-flight' response, though.  I remember stories of how a large percentage - a majority IIRC - of WW2 GIs never actually fired their gun in Normandy.

[Colonol Dekker]

I completely agree there Aldo,
The flight or fight response is completely instilled in every sentient life on the planet, What i was referring to is completely civil people who entered Combat High,  I would go so far as to say 1 person in particular who was kicked out of the ATR i was in (Army Training Regiment) at Pirbright because he was to quote a lance jack, (and i apologise for the term) "Like a ****in' rabid dog".

Its a common belief that people get addicted either psychologically to the feeling of power, or chemically to the adrenaline released. Some people can deal with it, some people just cannot..

All valid points here, i like the flow of dialogue, Its nice to not have an argument on one page for once

[Nuclear1]

On the other hand, I'm fairly sure I know what the primary motivation behind this is. It's actually stupidly simple when you think about it. Nietzche was right. Fight monsters and you want to kill them. And from where they're sitting, they're fighting monsters, people who kill indiscriminately, who obey none of the rules of civilized warfare, who neither ask nor offer quarter. This is not a unique occurance. It happened with Allied forces fighting the Japanese in WWII, it happened in Vietnam, it's probably happened in every large-scale guerilla conflict since the dawn of the 20th century.

Precisely what I was thinking. While I know there are some cases like Pvt. Green that have his natural disposition and record, the military has to be trained to expect to fight barbarians, and because it sometimes is near impossible to distinguish between a paniced civilian or a suicide bomber, civilians are unfortunately killed.

I'm sure you can see the kind of backlash this scenario would counjur. What were the military doing, putting this known rapist of children into a situation where he could do it again?

Plain and simple: there are just some bad recruiters in the military. They're the types who'll take just about anybody to make the numbers. There aren't very many of these recruiters, mind, and it's the few bad cases reported by the press that tend to give the entire military a bad name.

The services other than the Army or USMC tend to have much better recruits simply because of the time and effort spent in checking backgrounds. Hell, even unpaid speeding tickets can result in most Air Force jobs being inaccessible.