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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: vyper on November 12, 2005, 03:05:00 pm

Title: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: vyper on November 12, 2005, 03:05:00 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4430540.stm

[q]Police in the French city of Lyon have fired tear gas to break up groups of youths who hurled stones and bins hours before a curfew was due to begin.[/q]
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: Flipside on November 12, 2005, 03:17:53 pm
Isn't this a wierd-ass situation...

There are large groups of minorities in France which, according to the information I have read, are suffering a high level of neglect and discrimination. This sort of caused a double-take for me, I suppose I am always dubious of anything the British News says about France in particular, it's a hereditary weak spot in English broadcasting, but last I'd heard on race-relations in France was the whole Religious Symbol thing, which while controversial, sounded like a (somewhat over-exuberant) attempt at increasing equality.
Politically, these riots could put France in a very bad position, maintaining good relations with the Middle East whilst their own Ethnic minorities are rioting because of alleged poor treatment will be a task.
I just hope no-one else gets hurt. The downside to curfews is that they actually can attract people to violence and demonstration that otherwise wouldn't be interested.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: Nuclear1 on November 12, 2005, 03:23:24 pm
Quote
The ban prohibits "all meetings likely to start or fuel disorder" and comes after police reports of e-mails and text messages calling for "violent acts" in the city on Saturday.

Well, if this isn't a statement that is open to interpretation, I don't know what is. As soon as these riots are over, this has to go. I agree that meetings shouldn't grow violent--a similar phrase exists in the US Constitution--but banning "all meetings likely to start or fuel disorder" leaves the entire situation up to the government as to what may or may not cause a disruption.

Which is a bad thing.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: IceFire on November 12, 2005, 11:07:09 pm
Quote
The ban prohibits "all meetings likely to start or fuel disorder" and comes after police reports of e-mails and text messages calling for "violent acts" in the city on Saturday.

Well, if this isn't a statement that is open to interpretation, I don't know what is. As soon as these riots are over, this has to go. I agree that meetings shouldn't grow violent--a similar phrase exists in the US Constitution--but banning "all meetings likely to start or fuel disorder" leaves the entire situation up to the government as to what may or may not cause a disruption.

Which is a bad thing.
Unless I'm mistaken...this is in reference to the temporary emergency powers bestowed on the police for something like 10 days or something along those lines.  To further extend the emergency situation, the French parliament has to go to a vote again.  So while I don't completely understand the situation, I don't see this as a serious breech of civil rights as its temporary and has a built in limit (in theory).

Essentially what they have is a halfway martial law measure without going all the way.

I think the whole situation is worrying...these sorts of things spread.  They already have to Belgium and Germany.  But I see this as a "it takes two to tango" sort of situation.  The minorities tend to not want to or seemingly make no effort to integrate into society and society is just as bad at preventing attempts to integrate.  Basically, neither side is interested in the other and you get natural segregation as minority groups settle into ghetto like atmosphere's.  As they aren't integrated into the culture its hard to find jobs and then it spirals out of control from there.

This is present in virtually every western nation with large collections of minority groups.  This sort of situation could just as easily be happening in the UK, or Sweden, or Canada when it comes down to it.  I'm not sure if there is something else ontop of things that is really fueling tensions...
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: Flipside on November 13, 2005, 05:45:49 am
Well, there have been problems with the Gendarmes and prejudice, a friend of mine was caught up in the truck drivers dispute some time ago, and actually watched a Gendarme completely ignore a French truck driver slash his tyres with a kitchen knife. When he said to the Gendarme about he, he merely shrugged. It's surfaced a few times, but once again, it would be unfair of me to make too many conclusions, no Police force in the world is perfect, and, as I've said before, I'm not 100% trusting of the image of France our press gives, clearly, however, something is very wrong.

I agree to a certain degree about the refusal to become part of society, for people who moved when they were older, this is hardly surprising, and they will teach their kids the life they always knew, however, I have seen people aged in their teens using their ethnicity as a 'badge'. I think this is in part because of this massive misunderstanding that it's somehow against 'dark-skinned' people, and not against poor people. I must admit a clash of interests when I see kids with PS2s, Video phones, Nike footwear etc complaining about Western Corporate oppression in their home country.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: SadisticSid on November 13, 2005, 07:08:16 am
I think the whole situation is worrying...these sorts of things spread.  They already have to Belgium and Germany.  But I see this as a "it takes two to tango" sort of situation.  The minorities tend to not want to or seemingly make no effort to integrate into society and society is just as bad at preventing attempts to integrate.  Basically, neither side is interested in the other and you get natural segregation as minority groups settle into ghetto like atmosphere's.  As they aren't integrated into the culture its hard to find jobs and then it spirals out of control from there.

I don't agree with that implication that it's somehow the state's responsibility to aid the integration of minorities into society. Not all immigrants and refugees immediately run to their ethnic ghettos on entering the country and they do fine without any intervention from the state. Most of those who do would rather stay there and if the government tried to move them out, it'd cause much more trouble than it'd solve. Yes, segregation is a problem, but it's a natural course of life - people who can understand and empathise with each other will cluster to make themselves feel less isolated. This will always happen, and no amount of state incentives will persuade someone who have a different language and culture to abandon it and take a chance with (to the most part) unintelligible foreigners, without the will to do so first being there.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: Nico on November 13, 2005, 11:57:16 am
Yeah... Seems things are indeed blown out of proportions abroad :p
There's no riots, people, no civil war, no organized bands or anything, you know, just a bunch of idiots burning (lots of) cars by night. It's also not a thing about religions, it's about idle people having "fun" for no particular reason. And, finally, I live in one of these cities where there's supposed to be a curfew (Rouen) and, well, my life isn't any different, I can go out and have drinks in pubs by night w/o any pb.
And as for gendarmes being involved or not, the moment they lift a finger, the so called human right activists shout to morality rape, so obviously yeah, they don't even dare doing a single thing.
Come to think of it, long time I haven't been here, sad to get back (well, for one night) with something like that...
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: vyper on November 13, 2005, 01:45:14 pm
Wow, I've never met a middle class Frenchman before...
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: Nico on November 13, 2005, 02:02:45 pm
You've never been to France either I guess.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: BlackDove on November 13, 2005, 03:00:55 pm
Fight the power.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: Cobra on November 13, 2005, 03:46:25 pm
IMO, this is just plain ridiculous. the only reason these riots are in progress is the fact that two goddamn irresponsible teenagers ran themselves into a couple electrical wires and killed themselves. and the two cops that were chasing them are getting the blame. cops don't kill unless they have to, but the French just can't seem to get that through their bloody thick skulls.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: Rictor on November 13, 2005, 04:21:02 pm
Well it's not exactly the French who are rioting. Have you seen pictures of the dead teen's mother? I can't find them right now, but French she certainly is not.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: Cobra on November 13, 2005, 04:23:00 pm
ok, how about civilians that live in France? :D
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: Col. Fishguts on November 13, 2005, 04:39:33 pm
Well it's not exactly the French who are rioting. Have you seen pictures of the dead teen's mother? I can't find them right now, but French she certainly is not.

You know, people with dark skin can be French too.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: Rictor on November 13, 2005, 05:07:28 pm
Thank you, I realize that. But it is possible for one to be legally French (which entitles them to the same treatment as every other citizen, something I am not disputing) while not being culturally French. If you intentionally and systematically seperate yourself from French customs and beliefs, sorry, but you're not really French. In any case, do you think it would have made any difference if the rioters had been white? Would that excuse the massive arson and lawlesness?
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: Col. Fishguts on November 13, 2005, 05:28:02 pm
No, but the cultural seperation was a bilateral process. The northern-african immigrants didn't adapt to the French culture, and the French in turn treat them like 2nd class citizens.

Burning cars and shops won't change the miserable conditions in the suburbs, but neither will calling the immigrants scum that needs to be washed away (as Sarkozy put it)
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: karajorma on November 13, 2005, 05:40:21 pm
Thank you, I realize that. But it is possible for one to be legally French (which entitles them to the same treatment as every other citizen, something I am not disputing) while not being culturally French.

And you can tell that from skin colour can you? You can't judge how integrated someone is based on what their parents wear. What she wore perhaps but what her parents choose to wear has no relation.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: Rictor on November 13, 2005, 05:59:24 pm
Yes, and I was reffering to the mother (who, in the picture I saw, looked like this (http://www.africastyles.com/images/dec03/sen-2010l.jpg")). I may be mistaken, but if a certain section of the population do not identify themselves as French, I see no reason to do otherwise. It's less about what colour your skin is than about what beliefs you embrace, what culture you practice and so on. In any case, it seems abundantly clear that the rioters are primarily of North African and Arab descent. Am I wrong?

No, but the cultural seperation was a bilateral process. The northern-african immigrants didn't adapt to the French culture, and the French in turn treat them like 2nd class citizens.

Burning cars and shops won't change the miserable conditions in the suburbs, but neither will calling the immigrants scum that needs to be washed away (as Sarkozy put it)
I'm not disputing that. But either way, better integration is needed, if these people are to accept France and France is to accept them. It seems a reasonable way to avoid further problems in the future.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: karajorma on November 13, 2005, 06:04:41 pm
Yes, and I was reffering to the mother (who, in the picture I saw, looked like this (http://www.africastyles.com/images/dec03/sen-2010l.jpg")).

She looked like a 404! Bloody internet error messages, coming over here taking our jobs..... :D
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: Rictor on November 13, 2005, 06:12:06 pm
Damn right; and don't even get me started on those red X's, walking around like they own the place.

erm, try here (http://kabiza.com/images/dress.jpg")
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: achtung on November 13, 2005, 11:56:00 pm
erm, try here (http://kabiza.com/images/dress.jpg")

Quote
The page you were looking for - has been changed, or does not exist

you can always take a look around...
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: Flipside on November 14, 2005, 12:08:53 am
Remove the " from the end of the address ;)
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: aldo_14 on November 14, 2005, 05:10:55 am
Thank you, I realize that. But it is possible for one to be legally French (which entitles them to the same treatment as every other citizen, something I am not disputing) while not being culturally French. If you intentionally and systematically seperate yourself from French customs and beliefs, sorry, but you're not really French. In any case, do you think it would have made any difference if the rioters had been white? Would that excuse the massive arson and lawlesness?

Y'know, I'm probably legally British but almost certainly not culturally British.   Should that make a difference?
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: redmenace on November 14, 2005, 05:25:41 am
From what I understand the those culturally french haven't made much attempt to change and incorporate there immagrants and foreigners into their country and culture. Not that is should be forced, but simply encouraged. In some respects this is their fault. The French Gov't and culture is directly and enthusiastically adverse to change. And this is a widely known fact. Most obvious are the laws requiring cinemas to show a certain percantage of French films. Or how they refuse to allow muslim children to wear head scarfs in school. NONE of this justifies the lawlessness and general disregaurd for others property or these muslim communities not realizing that these young teenage punks had it coming when they:
A. Tried stealing auto parts IIRC
B. Jumped the fence of a power subsystem to evade police.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: karajorma on November 14, 2005, 05:52:49 am
Quote
kazan:   riots are always 1 part cause, 3 parts assholer

Pretty accurate I thought :)
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: aldo_14 on November 14, 2005, 05:56:56 am
From what I understand the those culturally french haven't made much attempt to change and incorporate there immagrants and foreigners into their country and culture. Not that is should be forced, but simply encouraged. In some respects this is their fault. The French Gov't and culture is directly and enthusiastically adverse to change. And this is a widely known fact. Most obvious are the laws requiring cinemas to show a certain percantage of French films. Or how they refuse to allow muslim children to wear head scarfs in school. NONE of this justifies the lawlessness and general disregaurd for others property or these muslim communities not realizing that these young teenage punks had it coming when they:
A. Tried stealing auto parts IIRC
B. Jumped the fence of a power subsystem to evade police.

The headscarf thing was really about having a secular culture in schools; it's not something imposed on just muslim children. I'm not sure it'd be a/the catalyst for rioting, either; not only is it quite a long time since it was passed, the opposition for it was damaged by the taking of French reporters hostage in Iraq (their captors wanted the ban repealed).

 The cinemas thing is about protecting their own culture (likewise music) from the overwhelming pressure of, for example, Hollywood films.  I don't think that's a good example to cite of lacking integration; in fact I'd say it's a more positive thing, that it helps preserve a national identity in a homogenized world.

 What is a problem, is social deprivation and isolation; packaging immigrant communities in insular high-rise blocks or housing estates, a lack of investment in improving facilities & eduction, a lack of suitable entry level jobs and discrimination against ethnic candidates, etc.  If people feel physically and socially isolated, then they'll feel voiceless and be more likely to resort to aggression.  But most societal groups can easily survive the former sort of cultural exclusion by forming their own nascent culture; in fact I think that's exactly what happens in France (it's not like a lack of the latest Will Smith movie or 50 cent album is going to make French immigrants feel isolated, is it?).

There's no excuse to justify running out and burning cars, of course.  But you have to still examine the reasons why this sort of situation can keep burning and spreading, and why people feel they have a pretext to do so.  Otherwise you'll continually be addressing the symptoms and not the actual problem.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: redmenace on November 14, 2005, 06:15:08 am
I am just analyzing, thats all.

The thing about the cinemas was just pointing out the general hostility to foreign culture. It seems to me the French are hostile to the idea of the "melting pot." I look at everything in total. Yes, blocking certain number of movies from airing will not cause riots. But I am lending this to a general attitude of French Society. And the headscarf thing might not be directed towards Muslims specifically, but it does hinder their religious freedom if such a thing exists in France.(I don't know French law or legal customs) It is a reasonable accomodation.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: karajorma on November 14, 2005, 06:25:05 am
 While other cultures do accept things from other languages any country that feels the need to say that le email can't be used because it isn't a french enough term obviously has serious problems with regards to accepting anything from outside their borders.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: aldo_14 on November 14, 2005, 07:19:35 am
http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1163543,00.html ?
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: karajorma on November 14, 2005, 07:43:30 am
Yep. That's pretty much what I'm on about. Yet English speakers have been quite happy to use terms like deja vu, laissez faire etc for ages.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: aldo_14 on November 14, 2005, 07:46:54 am
Yep. That's pretty much what I'm on about. Yet English speakers have been quite happy to use terms like deja vu, laissez faire etc for ages.

Albeit to be fair, English is seemingly the de-facto (and increasingly so) language of business, politics, etc.  So it's not like chucking in the odd french phrase is reducing the representation of the actual language in those terms.  Of course, it's probably partly because we (the UK at least) are so ****e at actually learning other languages.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: karajorma on November 14, 2005, 08:08:38 am
Yeah but we've been using those words before that happened. We haven't had an institute for the last 400 years who's sole purpose was to make sure that all our words were proper English.

*Looks at America*

Hmmmm. Maybe we should have had one :D
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: redmenace on November 14, 2005, 08:49:18 am
One people seperated by a common language?
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: StratComm on November 14, 2005, 08:59:30 am
Yeah but we've been using those words before that happened. We haven't had an institute for the last 400 years who's sole purpose was to make sure that all our words were proper English.

*Looks at America*

Hmmmm. Maybe we should have had one :D

Wouldn't have done you any good, we would have thrown it out along with old George and all that silly tea :p
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: aldo_14 on November 14, 2005, 09:07:45 am
Yeah but we've been using those words before that happened. We haven't had an institute for the last 400 years who's sole purpose was to make sure that all our words were proper English.

*Looks at America*

Hmmmm. Maybe we should have had one :D

Ahm no sure ah ken whit yer on aboot.

Spoiler:
Of course, some doss **** will probably think that's meant to sound canadian or something, going by US TV shows.......
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: Grey Wolf on November 14, 2005, 03:29:49 pm
Yeah but we've been using those words before that happened. We haven't had an institute for the last 400 years who's sole purpose was to make sure that all our words were proper English.

*Looks at America*

Hmmmm. Maybe we should have had one :D

Wouldn't have done you any good, we would have thrown it out along with old George and all that silly tea :p
That's actually the source of some of American English's more unusual spellings. Webster didn't like matching the British, so he made up new spellings.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: vyper on November 14, 2005, 03:43:12 pm
Yeah but we've been using those words before that happened. We haven't had an institute for the last 400 years who's sole purpose was to make sure that all our words were proper English.

*Looks at America*

Hmmmm. Maybe we should have had one :D

Wouldn't have done you any good, we would have thrown it out along with old George and all that silly tea :p

Not sure you'll be able to toss the tea this time, remember all those smugglers helped you do it last time.
Title: Re: French Riots Spread to Lyon City Centre
Post by: MetalDestroyer on November 15, 2005, 11:13:14 am
I have some word about this ^^
The riots were not only happen in Lyon, but in the whole french territories and especially in the capital (Paris and his neighboor department), and main city like Toulouse, etc...

The reason for a such violent from young, is the fact that one man (Ministor of the interior - Mr Sarkosy)  in France's Government had insulted a spefically type of people we call like  "les gens de la citée" something like that. He insulted them as rabble and  He won't give any excuse.

But like Nico said, some young make riots just for funs.