[vyper]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4430540.stm

[q]Police in the French city of Lyon have fired tear gas to break up groups of youths who hurled stones and bins hours before a curfew was due to begin.[/q]

[Flipside]

Isn't this a wierd-ass situation...

There are large groups of minorities in France which, according to the information I have read, are suffering a high level of neglect and discrimination. This sort of caused a double-take for me, I suppose I am always dubious of anything the British News says about France in particular, it's a hereditary weak spot in English broadcasting, but last I'd heard on race-relations in France was the whole Religious Symbol thing, which while controversial, sounded like a (somewhat over-exuberant) attempt at increasing equality.
Politically, these riots could put France in a very bad position, maintaining good relations with the Middle East whilst their own Ethnic minorities are rioting because of alleged poor treatment will be a task.
I just hope no-one else gets hurt. The downside to curfews is that they actually can attract people to violence and demonstration that otherwise wouldn't be interested.

[Nuclear1]

The ban prohibits "all meetings likely to start or fuel disorder" and comes after police reports of e-mails and text messages calling for "violent acts" in the city on Saturday.

Well, if this isn't a statement that is open to interpretation, I don't know what is. As soon as these riots are over, this has to go. I agree that meetings shouldn't grow violent--a similar phrase exists in the US Constitution--but banning "all meetings likely to start or fuel disorder" leaves the entire situation up to the government as to what may or may not cause a disruption.

Which is a bad thing.

[IceFire]

The ban prohibits "all meetings likely to start or fuel disorder" and comes after police reports of e-mails and text messages calling for "violent acts" in the city on Saturday.

Well, if this isn't a statement that is open to interpretation, I don't know what is. As soon as these riots are over, this has to go. I agree that meetings shouldn't grow violent--a similar phrase exists in the US Constitution--but banning "all meetings likely to start or fuel disorder" leaves the entire situation up to the government as to what may or may not cause a disruption.

Which is a bad thing.

Unless I'm mistaken...this is in reference to the temporary emergency powers bestowed on the police for something like 10 days or something along those lines.  To further extend the emergency situation, the French parliament has to go to a vote again.  So while I don't completely understand the situation, I don't see this as a serious breech of civil rights as its temporary and has a built in limit (in theory).

Essentially what they have is a halfway martial law measure without going all the way.

I think the whole situation is worrying...these sorts of things spread.  They already have to Belgium and Germany.  But I see this as a "it takes two to tango" sort of situation.  The minorities tend to not want to or seemingly make no effort to integrate into society and society is just as bad at preventing attempts to integrate.  Basically, neither side is interested in the other and you get natural segregation as minority groups settle into ghetto like atmosphere's.  As they aren't integrated into the culture its hard to find jobs and then it spirals out of control from there.

This is present in virtually every western nation with large collections of minority groups.  This sort of situation could just as easily be happening in the UK, or Sweden, or Canada when it comes down to it.  I'm not sure if there is something else ontop of things that is really fueling tensions...

[Flipside]

Well, there have been problems with the Gendarmes and prejudice, a friend of mine was caught up in the truck drivers dispute some time ago, and actually watched a Gendarme completely ignore a French truck driver slash his tyres with a kitchen knife. When he said to the Gendarme about he, he merely shrugged. It's surfaced a few times, but once again, it would be unfair of me to make too many conclusions, no Police force in the world is perfect, and, as I've said before, I'm not 100% trusting of the image of France our press gives, clearly, however, something is very wrong.

I agree to a certain degree about the refusal to become part of society, for people who moved when they were older, this is hardly surprising, and they will teach their kids the life they always knew, however, I have seen people aged in their teens using their ethnicity as a 'badge'. I think this is in part because of this massive misunderstanding that it's somehow against 'dark-skinned' people, and not against poor people. I must admit a clash of interests when I see kids with PS2s, Video phones, Nike footwear etc complaining about Western Corporate oppression in their home country.

[SadisticSid]

I think the whole situation is worrying...these sorts of things spread.  They already have to Belgium and Germany.  But I see this as a "it takes two to tango" sort of situation.  The minorities tend to not want to or seemingly make no effort to integrate into society and society is just as bad at preventing attempts to integrate.  Basically, neither side is interested in the other and you get natural segregation as minority groups settle into ghetto like atmosphere's.  As they aren't integrated into the culture its hard to find jobs and then it spirals out of control from there.

I don't agree with that implication that it's somehow the state's responsibility to aid the integration of minorities into society. Not all immigrants and refugees immediately run to their ethnic ghettos on entering the country and they do fine without any intervention from the state. Most of those who do would rather stay there and if the government tried to move them out, it'd cause much more trouble than it'd solve. Yes, segregation is a problem, but it's a natural course of life - people who can understand and empathise with each other will cluster to make themselves feel less isolated. This will always happen, and no amount of state incentives will persuade someone who have a different language and culture to abandon it and take a chance with (to the most part) unintelligible foreigners, without the will to do so first being there.

[Nico]

Yeah... Seems things are indeed blown out of proportions abroad
There's no riots, people, no civil war, no organized bands or anything, you know, just a bunch of idiots burning (lots of) cars by night. It's also not a thing about religions, it's about idle people having "fun" for no particular reason. And, finally, I live in one of these cities where there's supposed to be a curfew (Rouen) and, well, my life isn't any different, I can go out and have drinks in pubs by night w/o any pb.
And as for gendarmes being involved or not, the moment they lift a finger, the so called human right activists shout to morality rape, so obviously yeah, they don't even dare doing a single thing.
Come to think of it, long time I haven't been here, sad to get back (well, for one night) with something like that...

[vyper]

Wow, I've never met a middle class Frenchman before...

[Nico]

You've never been to France either I guess.

[BlackDove]

Fight the power.

[Cobra]

IMO, this is just plain ridiculous. the only reason these riots are in progress is the fact that two goddamn irresponsible teenagers ran themselves into a couple electrical wires and killed themselves. and the two cops that were chasing them are getting the blame. cops don't kill unless they have to, but the French just can't seem to get that through their bloody thick skulls.

[Rictor]

Well it's not exactly the French who are rioting. Have you seen pictures of the dead teen's mother? I can't find them right now, but French she certainly is not.

[Cobra]

ok, how about civilians that live in France?

[Col. Fishguts]

Well it's not exactly the French who are rioting. Have you seen pictures of the dead teen's mother? I can't find them right now, but French she certainly is not.

You know, people with dark skin can be French too.

[Rictor]

Thank you, I realize that. But it is possible for one to be legally French (which entitles them to the same treatment as every other citizen, something I am not disputing) while not being culturally French. If you intentionally and systematically seperate yourself from French customs and beliefs, sorry, but you're not really French. In any case, do you think it would have made any difference if the rioters had been white? Would that excuse the massive arson and lawlesness?

[Col. Fishguts]

No, but the cultural seperation was a bilateral process. The northern-african immigrants didn't adapt to the French culture, and the French in turn treat them like 2nd class citizens.

Burning cars and shops won't change the miserable conditions in the suburbs, but neither will calling the immigrants scum that needs to be washed away (as Sarkozy put it)

[karajorma]

Thank you, I realize that. But it is possible for one to be legally French (which entitles them to the same treatment as every other citizen, something I am not disputing) while not being culturally French.

And you can tell that from skin colour can you? You can't judge how integrated someone is based on what their parents wear. What she wore perhaps but what her parents choose to wear has no relation.

[Rictor]

Yes, and I was reffering to the mother (who, in the picture I saw, looked like this). I may be mistaken, but if a certain section of the population do not identify themselves as French, I see no reason to do otherwise. It's less about what colour your skin is than about what beliefs you embrace, what culture you practice and so on. In any case, it seems abundantly clear that the rioters are primarily of North African and Arab descent. Am I wrong?

No, but the cultural seperation was a bilateral process. The northern-african immigrants didn't adapt to the French culture, and the French in turn treat them like 2nd class citizens.

Burning cars and shops won't change the miserable conditions in the suburbs, but neither will calling the immigrants scum that needs to be washed away (as Sarkozy put it)

I'm not disputing that. But either way, better integration is needed, if these people are to accept France and France is to accept them. It seems a reasonable way to avoid further problems in the future.

[karajorma]

Yes, and I was reffering to the mother (who, in the picture I saw, looked like this).

She looked like a 404! Bloody internet error messages, coming over here taking our jobs.....

[Rictor]

Damn right; and don't even get me started on those red X's, walking around like they own the place.

erm, try here