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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: BlackDove on February 10, 2006, 07:15:34 pm

Title: Scar
Post by: BlackDove on February 10, 2006, 07:15:34 pm
Five minutes into it, Vasudan Ace anyone?

I mean, I know they aren't copying FreeSpace, and that FreeSpace most likely copied the concept from someone else, but dang, that's the first thing that popped into my mind considering that's the only instance where the hostile AI in FS was treated as a "special character". Well that and the Arjuna, but that was different.

Thoughts?

Oh right, this is a Battlestar Galactica thread so we're without confusion. A late one at that, considering this was last week and the new one airs today... or it did already... whatever.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: aldo_14 on February 10, 2006, 07:24:41 pm
SAAB; Chiggy Von Richtofen (http://web-worthy.com/saab/graphics/cgi/cvr.jpg)
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: BlackDove on February 10, 2006, 07:26:00 pm
Quote from: aldo_14 on February 10, 2006, 07:24:41 pm
SAAB; Chiggy Von Richtofen (http://web-worthy.com/saab/graphics/cgi/cvr.jpg)

I see.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Ace on February 10, 2006, 07:36:44 pm
You weren't the only one.

The whole 'asteroids' thing sort of added to it.

Anyway we need more 'Wing Commander-esque' episodes like this and 'The Hand of God' :p
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: BlackDove on February 10, 2006, 07:41:17 pm
Right, didn't even occur to me about the asteroids, probably too subliminal for me to notice (ie I'm retarded).

Aye, we really need more episodes like this one, though rendering all that combat must be expensive and tasking.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: FireCrack on February 10, 2006, 07:45:53 pm
Me too, instantly thaught of it.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: IceFire on February 10, 2006, 08:36:21 pm
This the latest episode of BSG or what?  And yeah...big fancy super ace enemy pilot?  Definately from SAAB.  Chiggy Von Richtofen was I think my favourite episode of the whole thing.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: neo_hermes on February 10, 2006, 08:46:45 pm
Best Ace Evar.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Unknown Target on February 10, 2006, 08:47:09 pm
Or, you know, they could've ripped it from Real LifeTM, cause, you know, it's a pretty common theme in that. :p
But yea, good episode.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Nuke on February 11, 2006, 01:17:16 am
indeed, that has got to be one of the best episodes of this season this far.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Ford Prefect on February 11, 2006, 02:23:25 am
Quote
Aye, we really need more episodes like this one, though rendering all that combat must be expensive and tasking.
Oh please. The last thing I want is to see BSG decay into more masturbation fodder for techno-junkies. It's a sociopolitical drama, not ****ing Stargate.

Oh, and incidentally:
Spoiler:
THEY KILLED BILLY. HOW THE **** COULD THEY KILL BILLY?! HOW COULD THEY DO THAT TO ME? I DON'T ****ING BELIEVE THEY KILLED BILLY!
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Nuke on February 11, 2006, 02:47:12 am
indeed. the show isnt nearly s much about space ships shooting at eachoter and long 30 minute combat scenes. although they are fun on occasion, overuse of such plotlines wil result in the degradation of plot as you can see in both starwars and startrek, as well as the way its been going with both stargates. the only reason i like atlantis is because its funny, sg1 sucks because mcguyver left the show and the whole thing with the ori seems abit redundan t to me. bsg on the otherhand maintains the drama, has very intresting characters, and just loaded with plot twists. the show is just too god damn good to be called scifi.

funny i think i just agreed with opposing opinions. good thing i dont give a frak.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Mefustae on February 11, 2006, 02:47:27 am
AAHH! MY EYES!! SPOILERED!!! Curse my inquisitive nature!!

*Commits suicide*
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: IceFire on February 11, 2006, 07:58:17 am
Quote from: Nuke on February 11, 2006, 02:47:12 am
indeed. the show isnt nearly s much about space ships shooting at eachoter and long 30 minute combat scenes. although they are fun on occasion, overuse of such plotlines wil result in the degradation of plot as you can see in both starwars and startrek, as well as the way its been going with both stargates. the only reason i like atlantis is because its funny, sg1 sucks because mcguyver left the show and the whole thing with the ori seems abit redundan t to me. bsg on the otherhand maintains the drama, has very intresting characters, and just loaded with plot twists. the show is just too god damn good to be called scifi.

funny i think i just agreed with opposing opinions. good thing i dont give a frak.
This is true...BSG is much more of a social comentary on the world than a out and out sci-fi technobable show.  Atlantis and SG-1 do this as well but the way they approach the theme is different.  I like all three to be quite honest and I'm very happy to be able to sit down and watch them when I do get the chance and they do air them or make them available on DVD here.

As for long combat sequences...I haven't seen this episode yet....Canadian viewers are still several episodes behind you folks...but I imagine it would be quite alright to do this sort of thing once in a while.  BSG has some of the coolest space combat since Babylon 5 ended and its so exceptionally well done that it'd be a shame to keep it locked in the closet all of the time.  As long as the story doesn't take a back seat.  It has to drive everything, even these types of sequences.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: BlackDove on February 11, 2006, 08:34:09 am
Quote from: Ford Prefect on February 11, 2006, 02:23:25 am
Quote
Aye, we really need more episodes like this one, though rendering all that combat must be expensive and tasking.
Oh please. The last thing I want is to see BSG decay into more masturbation fodder for techno-junkies. It's a sociopolitical drama, not ****ing Stargate.

**** a sociopolitical drama without a good bang.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: WMCoolmon on February 11, 2006, 11:57:51 am
I actually found all three episodes to be a bit meh.

Spoiler:
First of all, Stargate started with one of those "4 hours ago" things. Then they just reused that same footage later on in the episode. :wtf:

Conveniently enough, the Odyssey was nearly ready when Ba'al started stealing Stargates. Apparently, earth has somehow gained 'subspace locator beacons' which are currently indetectable by most anybody else. I was also vaguely annoyed that the Odyssey looked exactly like the Daedalus...although it's unrealistic, it would've been nice to have a different design, to set the two ships apart. But even then, apparently, the Daedalus still uses locator beacons even though, apparently, Earth has access to Asguard sensors that don't need the locator beacons.

The only really surprising thing about that episode was when Nerus disabled the shields. But even that didn't make any sense...apparently he came to some kind of agreement with Earth, but what did he expect to get in return? I was also disappointed that they didn't take advantage of the addictive corn...

I just didn't find any relevance of Atlantis to RL. It just seemed to be an episode to get the people on the show to trust Caldwell.

And BSG was another hostage ep. The only twist was that Billy died, and even that wasn't truly surprising because 3/4 of the "previously on BSG" clips had him in them, and he suddenly became a major point in the episode, so I was expecting some kind of major twist with his character. And it was another hostage ep. It got a little interesting when Lee started crawling around in the thing.

I'm starting to wonder why Galactica seems to be spending such massive amounts of fuel to keep ferrying people from it to Cloud Nine, and why they keep going to that one bar. :p

Also, they completely ignored Pegasus. Again.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Ace on February 11, 2006, 02:59:54 pm
Well Nerus didn't strike a deal, his toys got infected with a virus. That's why he was mumbling that the General was smarter than he thought.

...and yes even some token Pegasus references like in the last episode would have been nice such as "Pegasus is on the line" (cut to Peg bridge and CO#3) "We have a marine detachment ready to fry those frakkers!" "No thanks, we'll handle this."
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Akalamanaia on February 11, 2006, 04:10:55 pm
The subspace locator beacons have been there before this episode, Jackson had one on his wrist or leg on Ethon.
And they existed even before that..
[/ot]


[ontopic]
i stopped watching BSG right after the first episode, to diffrent compared to original, and i could see what the startup was leading to.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Dough with Fish on February 11, 2006, 04:58:07 pm
Yes, yes, yes, BSG had yet another great episode this week...

Spoiler:
And actually the thing that surprised me the most was how Starbuck shot... FRAKING SHOT Lee. That was really unexpected. And Billys death was very tragic, yes. But this actually made me think of something. You know how Adama asked Sharon if she would tell him who the Cylons were in the fleet, and she said she wouldn't... I wonder that maybe Billy is a Cylon? Just a thought

And, after watching the goodness that is BSG and Lost, am I the only one who thinks that they should have cut the cord on SG1? I mean the show compared to the likes of BSG is soooo damned cheesey. They are so predictable it's disgusting. On top of that, they are basically recycling old stories and plots with a few minor details changed. Whoop dee doo. I liked SG1 when there was, ya'know, actual danger and suspense and plots. Now it's just technobabble crap mixed with generic Star Trek-esuq planets. I say someone should put the show out of its misery.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: NGTM-1R on February 11, 2006, 05:00:06 pm
People have theorized that about Billy before, but he's awful...incompetent, for that. IMO.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: IceFire on February 11, 2006, 05:26:19 pm
Quote from: Dough with Fish on February 11, 2006, 04:58:07 pm
Yes, yes, yes, BSG had yet another great episode this week...

Spoiler:
And actually the thing that surprised me the most was how Starbuck shot... FRAKING SHOT Lee. That was really unexpected. And Billys death was very tragic, yes. But this actually made me think of something. You know how Adama asked Sharon if she would tell him who the Cylons were in the fleet, and she said she wouldn't... I wonder that maybe Billy is a Cylon? Just a thought
s
And, after watching the goodness that is BSG and Lost, am I the only one who thinks that they should have cut the cord on SG1? I mean the show compared to the likes of BSG is soooo damned cheesey. They are so predictable it's disgusting. On top of that, they are basically recycling old stories and plots with a few minor details changed. Whoop dee doo. I liked SG1 when there was, ya'know, actual danger and suspense and plots. Now it's just technobabble crap mixed with generic Star Trek-esuq planets. I say someone should put the show out of its misery.
SG-1 is a different show with a different scope.  They know its cheesy...they do that on purpose.  Thats why they make alot of intertextual references...sometimes blatantly sometimes not.  Half the fun of watching SG-1 is because its funny and entertaining in a light sort of way.  BSG is much more moody and dark...I like both...but if I'm having a bad day watching SG-1 is a nice thing to do because most of the episodes usually err on the side of humour with some adventure.

Now, season 10 hasn't been quite as good up until now as some of the previous seasons...but I think its back in stride.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: BlackDove on February 11, 2006, 07:19:56 pm
Next person that mentions SG-1 is supporting Charismatic's choice to copulate with a fifteen year old in the other thread.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Mefustae on February 11, 2006, 07:40:45 pm
SG... Atlantis :D
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: BlackDove on February 11, 2006, 07:41:52 pm
Got me there.

Partial credit.

Both ways.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: WMCoolmon on February 11, 2006, 08:17:39 pm
Quote from: BlackDove on February 11, 2006, 07:19:56 pm
Next person that mentions SG-1 is supporting Charismatic's choice to copulate with a fifteen year old in the other thread.

Next person to bow to BlackDove's ultimatum is supporting terrorism.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Black Wolf on February 11, 2006, 09:00:41 pm
The next person to come up with a next person ultimatum liked BC Millenium.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: NGTM-1R on February 11, 2006, 09:59:17 pm
Quote from: Black Wolf on February 11, 2006, 09:00:41 pm
The next person to come up with a next person ultimatum liked BC Millenium.

Anyone who really cares about any of these ultimatums is rather foolish. :p
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: FireCrack on February 11, 2006, 10:06:24 pm
Quote from: Black Wolf on February 11, 2006, 09:00:41 pm
The next person to come up with a next person ultimatum liked BC Millenium.

ohh.... that's preety harsh... you could be like.. banned for that...
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Ace on February 11, 2006, 11:21:34 pm
Whomever else mentions BC Millenium will be stuck in a room with Helen Tigh... :ick:
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Mefustae on February 12, 2006, 01:21:21 am
*Clears throat*

Battlecruiser Millenium[/i]

*Rubs hands together expentantly*
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Nuke on February 12, 2006, 02:06:56 am
Millenium!
i just like older women :D
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Ace on February 12, 2006, 02:31:15 am
You two gotta be kidding me. She's unbridabled evil like... like... Ann Coulter! :p
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Nuke on February 12, 2006, 03:36:47 pm
evil chicks are good in bed :D
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Ghostavo on February 12, 2006, 03:48:26 pm
Quote from: Black Wolf on February 11, 2006, 09:00:41 pm
The next person to come up with a next person ultimatum liked BC Millenium.

I actually liked BC Millenium...  :wtf:
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Janos on February 12, 2006, 03:55:55 pm
BILLY
BILLY
BILLY
BILLY

Billy is frakken awesome doodz.

Billy bee bebop man, why do you
Spoiler:
FUKKEN DIE LOL
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: ZylonBane on February 12, 2006, 05:20:23 pm
Well, that was crap.

For the THIRD TIME IN A ROW, we have an episode that starts with a flashback (or flashforward, or whatever the hell was going on).

We have Kat being an unprofessional, petty, egotistical psycho-*****...

...and we have Starbuck letting Kat get away with it. Up to and including getting punched in the mouth.

We have, with absolutely no prior mention, an "ace" Cylon Raider that hates humans, even though this idea doesn't make a damn bit of sense because:

1. Any Cylon that's been killed so many times is clearly not an ace.
2. Any Cylon getting killed more than a few times is statistically improbable. If you divide the thousands (or tens of thousands) of Raiders by the number of humans who are still fighting them, the chances of any one Raider getting pegged more than once or twice is pretty slim.
3. The "training by death" concept is ridiculous. Since Cylon personalites can be transmitted, that means they can be represented as data, which means they can be duplicated. So they really only need one ace Raider pilot personality, which can be imprinted on ALL the Raiders.

So... yeah. Crap. Though I can see how it would appeal to the "Explosions are pretty!" demographic.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: NGTM-1R on February 12, 2006, 09:26:47 pm
Quote from: ZylonBane on February 12, 2006, 05:20:23 pm
1. Any Cylon that's been killed so many times is clearly not an ace.

There's a saying: it's better to be lucky then good. And there's truth to it. If reality decides to scream "SCREW YOU!" and kill your Raider ace repeatedly, there really isn't a damn thing you can do. More to the point, see the below paragraph.

Quote from: ZylonBane on February 12, 2006, 05:20:23 pm
2. Any Cylon getting killed more than a few times is statistically improbable. If you divide the thousands (or tens of thousands) of Raiders by the number of humans who are still fighting them, the chances of any one Raider getting pegged more than once or twice is pretty slim.

Actually, no.

Consider: the Cylons may well be seeing that the same "troops" are fighting Galactica each time, because they are experienced. They've done it before. This pushes the "they're learning" cavet to its logical conclusion: the Cylons are developing a specialized force specifically to combat Galactica, be ensuring that it is fought by the same opponents each time. Thus it is VERY possible that Galactica is beating the same Cylons repeatedly. (Also, consider that they have done this, by my incomplete count extending only up to Season Two, plus or minus 275 times. "33" covers the 257th, 258th, and 259th; add up from there. If these are in fact the same Raiders facing Galatica every time, they have more combat experience against Galactica then many pilots have acquired in entire wars.)

Quote from: ZylonBane on February 12, 2006, 05:20:23 pm
3. The "training by death" concept is ridiculous. Since Cylon personalites can be transmitted, that means they can be represented as data, which means they can be duplicated. So they really only need one ace Raider pilot personality, which can be imprinted on ALL the Raiders.

And then they all act alike. And can all be defeated in the same way, every time. That's the danger inherent to automated war machines: they're all the same. They respond to situations the same way. Present one with a situation that you have presented another, and you know exactly how it will react. And hence, how to counter it.

Whoops.

It is possible that the Cylons actually did have a single Raider ace at one time. However, inherent to them is their ability to learn, and to think, and the fact that the Raiders are not all controlled by one metapersonality, but individuals. In learning they evolve, and in evolving, they became different from each other based upon their different experiences. You didn't think it all the way through.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: ZylonBane on February 12, 2006, 10:21:11 pm
Quote from: ngtm1r on February 12, 2006, 09:26:47 pm
And then they all act alike.
Says who? One thing that highly competent warriors do is NOT act in an easy-to-predict manner. That's basic tactics.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Unknown Target on February 12, 2006, 10:29:41 pm
No, but if you've ever flown in, say, a combat flight sim against a certain person for awhile, you tend to know what they do in stress situations. Eventually the enemy Raider would start running out of moves.

And anyway, about the new episode: I WANT TO SEE SOME FRAKKIN SCI FI! In the last scene of the episode, I just went "Oh my gooood it's a SOAP!" Serious, people, BSG is good and all, and I realize that they're trying to branch out to a wider audience, but at least in the first two seasons they actually, you know, had something unique to the plot; as in that it could not take place in any other show. Woohoo, terrorists. Ok, this is CSI Miami...or 24, or hell, Baywatch. BSG needs to use it's unique settings and story, and not ONLY focus on the characters. It's good to focus on the people, but not to the extent where every episode becomes a soap box drama.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Ford Prefect on February 12, 2006, 11:17:08 pm
Like I said, BSG is primarily an examination of politics, society, and spirituality. It is placing contemporary and universal questions in a fictional context to give us greater objectivity and insight. To that end, typical sci-fi "set pieces" should appear only when and if they drive or supplement this purpose.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: ZylonBane on February 12, 2006, 11:39:43 pm
Regarding the latest episode-- I don't think I like Dee anymore.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Janos on February 12, 2006, 11:48:32 pm
Quote from: ZylonBane on February 12, 2006, 11:39:43 pm
Regarding the latest episode-- I don't think I like Dee anymore.

Spoiler:
Shot through the heart and you're to blame
You give love a bad name
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Nuke on February 13, 2006, 03:39:39 am
i still find that bsg is pretty unique. its dramatic and unpredictable. i wouldnt call it a soap opera cause those tend to be poorly acted and very predictable, which i dont think is the case with bsg.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Mefustae on February 13, 2006, 05:28:22 am
Quote from: Nuke on February 13, 2006, 03:39:39 am
i still find that bsg is pretty unique. its dramatic and unpredictable. i wouldnt call it a soap opera cause those tend to be poorly acted and very predictable, which i dont think is the case with bsg.
Unpredictable? Hell yeah. The end of Kobol's Last Gleaming for example; show me someone who saw that coming, and i'll show you a f***ing liar.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: aldo_14 on February 13, 2006, 08:35:17 am
Little thought on Cylon raiders resurrecting; who says it's biologically or mechanically possible to copy memories anyways?
Quote from: ZylonBane on February 12, 2006, 10:21:11 pm
Quote from: ngtm1r on February 12, 2006, 09:26:47 pm
And then they all act alike.
Says who? One thing that highly competent warriors do is NOT act in an easy-to-predict manner. That's basic tactics.

Any group sharing identical thought patterns risks predictability; human behaviour is never random, even if attempted to be, let alone machines.  Moreso, the last thing you want a 'highly competent' warrior to do is second guess themselves, which is exactly what happens if you place the impetus upon being unpredictable; I'd imagine most soldiers rely not on trying to out-bluff the enemy, but upon proven and tested tactics they know to work.  And there's a strength in that, but not when every soldier makes exactly the same decision, without meaning to do so, as the others.  There's a difference between, for example, knowing the Immelman turn and when you decide to use it.

 Also, if you have an evolutionary behaviour, that behaviour can only evolve with specific experiences; i.e. you can't rely upon a single behaviour pattern as a baseline, because then you limit all other possible learning experience.  So, unless you can share learning - and that's open for either way - you need to have alternate Raiders having alternative experiences in order to broaden overall combat experience.

NB: worth noting, Cylons did proper-fight other ships in the mini-series; there's a line just after Boomers' raptor is picked up where she asks Apollo of the state of the war, and he mentions only old (or badly in need of an overhaul) fighters being succesful against the Cylons; and there's nothing to indicate he knows of the Galacticas' operations in that ilk.  So it's not impossible for a Raider to have died fighting Colonials.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Flipside on February 13, 2006, 08:49:43 am
There are certain limits you can push socio-political analysis before it starts to overshadow the rest of the show. Yes, I do think BSG does a far better job than the original in portraying the human condition of what happened, rather than the  'Ooops!' reaction from the Original.

However, I was willing to accept that the first series was going to to be all run and little fight, but I would like to see a little more combat action, it doesn't cost any more money to render more ships, you have one model and that's all you need. Though it would introduce time constraints for more ships/explosions etc, when you are talking Vipers vs Raiders etc, it's not like you need to pay for new models, and the animators aren't paid on a 'per explosion' basis ;)

But this is a Sci-Fi series, with a Battlestar, an old, but deadly warhorse, it'd be nice to see if properly go into action more often.

I've only watched series one and my total impression was, very good, very dark, and I wish Boltar would shut up sometimes.

Finally, as far as personality transference goes, we aren't entirely sure how it works, Cylon raiders are techno-organic, they may view each cylon's experiences as a 'Soul' that they pass into another shell, it may possibly be against their religion to duplicate 'souls' like that?
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Unknown Target on February 13, 2006, 10:02:44 am
Actually, on the Cylon bit: Maybe they did use an all-the-same AI for the first go around, and, since they were fighting against humans, each Cylon Raider had a different combat experience. So, rather than overwriting everything, they just kept each individual AI. You couldn't decide which AI was automatically "better" so you just keep them all and allow them all to grow.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: BlackDove on February 13, 2006, 10:25:38 am
Quote from: ZylonBane on February 12, 2006, 11:39:43 pm
Regarding the latest episode-- I don't think I like Dee anymore.

Considering she's a promiscuous whore, I can see why.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Ford Prefect on February 13, 2006, 12:09:45 pm
Ah yes, a woman who has conflicting feelings is a whore. Just makes me swell with pride to be a man.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Unknown Target on February 13, 2006, 01:10:08 pm
Er...anyway.
In response to the BSG = not a soap but a human commentary thing, I have this to say: that's all well and good, go ahead and make a good commentary show, but make it BSG! I mean, I LOVED the first and second season; the show used to be about telling a story, of how a race, completely slaughetered, was now trying to  find its new home. The social commentary was interwoven into that; now, it's ONLY commentary, and minus the actual BSG story. That's my problem with it. I want story first, commentary second. The first and second seasons did a wonderful job, but like I just said: the third season is doing all this stuff for shock value and just for the sake of doing it. It's becoming like a mature version of Star Trek: just a bunch of episodic storylines that are for the most part not interconnectd. The only difference is that it deals with darker themes.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Flipside on February 13, 2006, 01:15:52 pm
Have they done the 'Enemy Mine' scenario yet?

No sci-fi series is complete without a good-guy crash landing on the same planet as a 'bad guy' and the two of them having to work together to survive. If it hasn't happened yet... it will ;)
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Turambar on February 13, 2006, 01:17:40 pm
they kinda did that
where starbuck crashed, and had to make that cylon raider work for her...

but that was also kinda different
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: neo_hermes on February 13, 2006, 01:17:41 pm
*is suddenly reminded of the Old Starbuck and Tin can Stuck on a inhospitable planet*
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: aldo_14 on February 13, 2006, 01:30:57 pm
Quote from: Turambar on February 13, 2006, 01:17:40 pm
they kinda did that
where starbuck crashed, and had to make that cylon raider work for her...

but that was also kinda different

In the sense that she ripped out it's brains and rode its corpse to freedom.  In effect.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: BlackDove on February 13, 2006, 03:39:43 pm
Quote from: Ford Prefect on February 13, 2006, 12:09:45 pm
Ah yes, a woman who has conflicting feelings is a whore. Just makes me swell with pride to be a man.

She's been leading Billy Boy on, but really all she ever wanted was to trade up to the CAG and have him **** her brains out. Billy boy was good while CAG was rejecting her, but once Adama decided it's more fun to pass the time with her on his cock, she immediatly dropped Billy.

There were no "conflicting" feelings. Just using one until being able to trade up for another.

Whore.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Ford Prefect on February 13, 2006, 03:43:21 pm
Quote from: Unknown Target on February 13, 2006, 01:10:08 pm
In response to the BSG = not a soap but a human commentary thing, I have this to say: that's all well and good, go ahead and make a good commentary show, but make it BSG! I mean, I LOVED the first and second season; the show used to be about telling a story, of how a race, completely slaughetered, was now trying to  find its new home. The social commentary was interwoven into that; now, it's ONLY commentary, and minus the actual BSG story. That's my problem with it. I want story first, commentary second. The first and second seasons did a wonderful job, but like I just said: the third season is doing all this stuff for shock value and just for the sake of doing it. It's becoming like a mature version of Star Trek: just a bunch of episodic storylines that are for the most part not interconnectd. The only difference is that it deals with darker themes.
Well, one problem is that if you want to give the show longevity, you have to ration the amount of central plot you include in each episode. If you throw in big twists too liberally, you run the risk of exhausting the show's timeline, and running a show past its prime is a mistake that has made many a great program turn mediocre toward the end.

The other problem is that the original Battlestar Galactica was utterly vapid. I really think it's unfair to think of this show as a resurrection of the original. Rather, it's a human drama that's using the universe of the original show to accomplish something much more philosophically ambitious. And as far as I'm concerned, that is the very pinnacle of what good science fiction is.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Ace on February 13, 2006, 04:06:50 pm
Yeah. They kinda did it right here, but at the same time more could have been done to 'increase longevity and creativity.'

For instance, make the first season up until the mid season finale being the Cylon invasion of the Colonies. Have the ambushes, individual ships joining up, raiding depots, etc. Plus show the few other Battlestars that survived as sort of cliff-hanger like things. (i.e. Pegasus working with Galactia on an op and then vanishing)

Similarly "flashbacks" to the Colonial War would work well. A seeing a Baseship near Kobol reminds Adama of a scouting mission he did back in the day. Have sort of 'meta plots' that mesh events then with the present. (stuff he saw but didn't understand until now)

Then the "survival episodes" (getting water, food, etc. with the political issues of the new government) which get turned on end with the discovery of Kobol (more conflict of "let's settle here" is needed), then Pegasus, then the Iblis type plot, finding the Galleon, schism between "kill the Cylons with the tech of the gods" and finding Earth, etc.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Janos on February 13, 2006, 04:11:30 pm
Quote from: Unknown Target on February 13, 2006, 01:10:08 pm
Er...anyway.
In response to the BSG = not a soap but a human commentary thing, I have this to say: that's all well and good, go ahead and make a good commentary show, but make it BSG! I mean, I LOVED the first and second season; the show used to be about telling a story, of how a race, completely slaughetered, was now trying to  find its new home. The social commentary was interwoven into that; now, it's ONLY commentary, and minus the actual BSG story. That's my problem with it. I want story first, commentary second. The first and second seasons did a wonderful job, but like I just said: the third season is doing all this stuff for shock value and just for the sake of doing it. It's becoming like a mature version of Star Trek: just a bunch of episodic storylines that are for the most part not interconnectd. The only difference is that it deals with darker themes.

we're still in second season UT just fyi lol good times brotha

I kinda agree that lately it's been far more lackluster. We've had several good and some mediocre episodes but it feels like the fleet is just sitting there, wondering when they run out of supplies. Character development is good and nice - I'm watching BSG for drama, not for fancy scifi battles - but the story should pick up now.

Maybe they blow up the Pegasus soon so we can get rid of that inevitable equation of "nukes and battlestars, oh my".

Also, Apollo has more lives than a cat. He's been, what, almost chocked to death 3 TIMES, shot once, damn if I remember more stuff. I
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: WMCoolmon on February 13, 2006, 09:57:00 pm
Quote from: Janos on February 13, 2006, 04:11:30 pm
Also, Apollo has more lives than a cat. He's been, what, almost chocked to death 3 TIMES, shot once, damn if I remember more stuff. I

Damn, the BSG nitpicking police got 'im.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: ZylonBane on February 14, 2006, 10:02:41 am
Quote from: Janos on February 13, 2006, 04:11:30 pm
Also, Apollo has more lives than a cat.
Much like all characters in all action-adventure shows ever. Move along, nothing to see here.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: BlackDove on February 14, 2006, 10:36:52 am
He's a cylon.

:nervous:
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Nuke on February 14, 2006, 02:11:39 pm
they showed us who all the cylons were in the miniseries. i should watch it again and see who else i recognize.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Col. Fishguts on February 14, 2006, 03:23:07 pm
Nope, in the mini series we only saw Six, Valeri, the tourist guide and the dude on the station.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: NGTM-1R on February 14, 2006, 03:52:31 pm
Beware essays written at random. Still, less then an hour, probably worth the time spent.

A heads-up to the BSG mod folks (particularly as GameWarden refuses to send me a registration email no matter how many times I register): Galactica's main guns aren't automatic! I was watching my First Season DVDs yesterday, and in "33" Tigh says "You've got a red light in the main gun ammunition hoists right there!"

This struck me because I've been visiting NavWeps too much lately, and so have become familar with the terminology associated with turrets and such. An ammunition hoist brings ammunition from the magazine, deeper inside the ship, up to the turret. A hoist, also, is not how one describes an automatic weapon (those have feeds), and BSG has been remarkably accurate so far its usage of naval terminology. (Also those times we seen Galactica's main battery firing, the heavy upper guns as opposed to the AAS batteries on the flight pods, they appear to fire single shots at noticible interval, not near-continous streams like the AAS guns.) The closest that Galactica's main guns can come to being automatic, then, is using a "clip" or "revolver" reload system in which ammunition is in containers which allow for bursts of rapid fire before needing to reload.

Also, examining various screenshots, Galactica's main guns are definitely in the running for largest naval artillery ever. I would conservatively call their projectiles 18". It's quite possible they're closer to 22" or 24". (Which would mean Galactica doesn't actually need the Raptors to deploy its nukes; you could easily fire the weapon seen in "Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt. 2" out of one of the main battery turret guns.)

Just for fun, let's present a figure on the armor penetration of one of Galactica's main battery rounds, at absolute minimum. For absolute minimum, we'll use the guns of another, considerably less advanced ship; the HIJMS Yamato, whose 18" guns roughly match the size of Galactica's (at minimum), but whose rounds probably have much less impressive ballistic qualities. (Yamato's guns had rather unimpressive ballistic qualities for the time, never mind the Colonial Fleet's weapons.)

So, we dig up a range/penetration table from http://www.combinedfleet.com/f_guns.htm#6 and look up Yamato's armor penetration values. Whoops, it mentions the usage of two major armor types. But never fear! We can narrow that. Cylon Basestars use curved plating, which means it is probably homogenous; face-hardened armor is almost impossible to produce in curved shapes. We can discount the figures for varying ranges, as this is in space, and gravity/air do not effect the ballistics of the projectile; its muzzle velocity will be its only velocity. Thus, only the range of zero penetration against homogenous armor figure interests us.

With this deduction, 32.7 inches makes for a good absolute minimum armor penetration figure for a round from Galactia's main battery. With all the variables involved, for 100% safety a full yard of armor is probably required. Three whole feet. That is a lot of armor, and to completely armor a ship in it would be prohibitive in several senses (both in actual amount of material and in terms of having to get all that very heavy stuff moving at a decent clip). Galactica's main battery is therefore probably quite capable of punching through the armor on a Basestar.


But wait, there's more! Many people have commented on Galactica's odd appearance of being partially plated. From the same site mentioned above, however, comes an explanation. The partial plating is very much intentional. In fact, it's an integral part of Galactica's defensive system. Those are decapping plates. Now, why are they important? First, a little study in what gets thrown at them.

An armor-piercing projectile uses an armor-piercing cap (good diagram and picture to be found on this page: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/Gun_Data_p2.htm) to help penetration. The cap is not an integral part of the projectile, but is designed to shatter on impact; nonetheless it will deliever considerable kinetic energy in the few moments before it does. The cap serves several purposes; it increases the "biting" angle, the angle at which the round will penetrate rather then deflect; it pre-stresses the plate; and it helps prevent the round from shattering by spreading the stress of the inital impact over the entire nose of the actual round. (The possiblity of shattering is quite real, actually.)

Armor-piercing explosives (read that: Cylon missiles) come in essentially one category: HEAT, High Explosive Anti-Tank. They function by superheating the outermost armor to a liquid state, and then forcing a jet of that superheated exterior armor through the rest of the armor and into whatever the armor is protecting. (A jet of several thousand degree molten metal coming through the wall of your tank is obviously A Bad Thing.) HEAT ammunition is extremely effective against homogenous forged armor plate, nearly unstoppable. (If you ever wonder why tank turrets stopped being round, here's the answer. They wanted facehardened plates. Those do better, but not by too much.) There are currently two ways known to reliably defeat a HEAT round: reactive armor, which essentially blows off when hit, presenting a gap between the exterior plate and interior plate through which the jet of molten metal cannot cross, and the Chobham ceramic used on the M1 Abrams and most other NATO tanks, which has a much higher melting point.

Now, back to those decapping plates. Though the idea occurred to many before the demise of naval artillery duels, the only ships ever to mount real decapping plates were US battleships, starting with the USS South Dakota. This was because only the US could afford to spend the money. (The US did several things in terms of protection that nobody else could simply afford to.) The decapping plates proved their effectiveness in actual combat at least once, and the concept, proved by math and more recently computer simulation, is quite sound. By causing the armor-piercing cap to shatter prematurely, the effectiveness of the round is reduced greatly. (Gory details and high-level math: http://www.combinedfleet.com/okun_biz.htm.)

Against a HEAT round, the effectiveness of a decapping plate lies in the fact that it is posistioned outboard of the main armor, with a gap between it and the main armor...a gap which that jet of molten metal will have a tough time crossing and retaining the heat to push through the main armor belt.

Thus Galactica's partially plated appearance, with its decapping plates. As has been noted, the AAS guns are often posistioned between the ribs, so the ship was probably never meant to be fully covered by decapping plate (although it is very concieveable that there was originally more of it). The plating, then, would have been placed over critical areas. (Whether it still is only God knows; but the engines seem to have retained their plating, so it's possible.)
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: aldo_14 on February 14, 2006, 04:57:52 pm
I thought Ron Moore said somewhere that Galactica has partial plating because it was being decomissioned or somesuch?
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: NGTM-1R on February 14, 2006, 05:28:05 pm
My explanation is cooler. :p
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Flipside on February 14, 2006, 05:45:23 pm
Did any humans escape or is Adama leading a Cylon refugee camp?
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Ghostavo on February 14, 2006, 05:59:01 pm
Quote from: Flipside on February 14, 2006, 05:45:23 pm
Did any humans escape or is Adama leading a Cylon refugee camp?

Adama is human?
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Mefustae on February 14, 2006, 08:00:55 pm
Hmmm, I always thought the ribbed appearance was to protect the smaller guns in between the ribs. Think about it, when a high explosive projectile hits the hull of a completely flat hull, it'll make a big dent in the hull, and take out any guns near the detonation. With the ribs, an explosion will be contained to only one of the indentations, while the other guns will be protected, and thus you've only lost a single gun where as a detonation on a flat hull would have yielded many destroyed guns...
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Kosh on February 14, 2006, 10:11:21 pm
Now that we have the Pegasus, Cylon Basestars don't seem nearly as intimidating as before.


Can the Pegasus single handedly defeat a Basestar?
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Bobboau on February 14, 2006, 10:44:30 pm
well Galactica alone cannot take out one, but Galactica + Pegasus can take out two in short order, so I'm guessing yes it can.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: NGTM-1R on February 14, 2006, 11:32:28 pm
Galactica alone probably can't take one down simple because it's short something like sixty fighters.
Title: Re: Scar
Post by: Nuke on February 15, 2006, 12:55:17 am
i always thought the ribs were for her pleasure :D