Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: aldo_14 on February 13, 2006, 01:28:33 pm
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4707608.stm
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Mr Blair told the BBC: "I think we've won the argument on it.
There wasn't an argument Asshole! You never even bothered to listen to the public point of view, so don't pretend you 'talked us over' or something. You just bulldozed you're ideals through and ignored any rules that prevented you from doing so.
Sorry, but this guy just keeps getting worse, and as someone who has to renew his passport in a few months, it affects me personally.
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I'm never renewing my passport whilst this is in force. It's pathetic and insulting to all voters, the way the government have lied and spun their way, refusing to even answer the questions raised. They should be ashamed.
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If the estimate of.. £300 for the thing is correct.. isn't that a little bit too pricey?
With a price tag like that I can't see this getting alot of support from the public, ofcourse.. not that they seem too worried about that.
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Yeah. I gotta get a passport for the Road Trip™ in July, and I'm pissed enough at having to fork out £50 - let alone £93.
****ing assholes. I can't wait till someone assasinates that smug ****ing bastard.
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This is where we hope the lords kick it back out again.
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This is a bit out of order. I thought the old system worked just fine for you guys for decades.
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This is a bit out of order. I thought the old system worked just fine for you guys for decades.
It worked so well that the UK scrapped Id cards in 1953 (introduced during WW2; y'know, when there actually was a clear and present danger to the UK), as they were not needed and had actually eroded public trust and co-operation with the Police.
It's a sticking plaster manifesto promise, claiming to deliver the world yet not even able to provide a cost estimate. We have Labour citing £30 on the basis of only the Home Office implementation costs, and failing to even contemplate the fact it might run over budget as every other government IT project has in the history of everything (literally). A London School of Economics report comes out, and the government tries to dismiss it as biased rather than directly address any question. Then they release a statement, a few weeks ago, that Id theft costs '£1.2bn' per year - citing it as a reason for Id cards when not only are the figures blatantly wrong (the cost including the likes of how much it costs to launch police raids on asylum seekers and deporting them; the actual figure directly related to the territory of Id cards was £390-490m, less than the governments wildly optimistic pricings for the running costs of an Id card scheme), but it makes the entirely bizarre and unsupportable assumption Id cards would eliminate this type of fraud (for example, ignoring forgeries, the likelihood of Ids being remotely read as with the Dutch system, and internet fraud). and when the Dutch passport problems were mentioned (the Dutch launched a biometric passport using an RFID chip -as with the ID card scheme - which was promptly cracked, allowing peoples' entire identity data to be stolen by people up to 10 feet away), the governments response was to dismiss it as a test (which it obviously bloody well failed, didn't it), and then claim it wouldn't happen because they were better (how? they never said......). Not to mention failing to mention that ID cards will have an aforementioned RFID chip, and using wooly language to obfuscate that fact (referred to as a 'contactless readable' card by the government, lest the plebs realise they're to be fitted with a radio tracker).
And that's ignoring the civil liberties implications, or the government planning unlimited powers to extend or add to the data within the ID cards. Or the technical stupidity of the design, like giving pre-op transsexuals two legal identities - a card for male and female.
I'm truly disgusted. (Quite seriously) If it wasn't financially impossible for me, I'd be looking to leave the country.
This is where we hope the lords kick it back out again.
Great, innit? The sole hope for democratic Britain is a bunch of unelected old farts; we're being saved by the (in theory) least representative part of the government. I guess not being accountable to the voters means you can afford to have such unpolitical things like principles and a backbone.
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Pink ID card for female and blue for male ;)
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Yes, and yellow for Jews, with a Star of David.
Great, innit? The sole hope for democratic Britain is a bunch of unelected old farts; we're being saved by the (in theory) least representative part of the government. I guess not being accountable to the voters means you can afford to have such unpolitical things like principles and a backbone.
Isn't there a campaign to "democratize" the House of Lords, and make them elected? Seems to me that would defeat the purpose. Cause once you're in, you can do anything you want, up to and including dressing like a woman in public, and no one can touch you. A bit like University tenures.
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and when the Dutch passport problems were mentioned (the Dutch launched a biometric passport using an RFID chip -as with the ID card scheme - which was promptly cracked, allowing peoples' entire identity data to be stolen by people up to 10 feet away), the governments response was to dismiss it as a test (which it obviously bloody well failed, didn't it), and then claim it wouldn't happen because they were better (how? they never said......).
Not entirely true, if you mean the Dutch government dismissed it as a test. It was a test all along. But indeed, it was pretty damn ugly. Due to some idiot using a stupidly calculated key, it was a 31 bit security. PayPal uses something like 384.
This is where we hope the lords kick it back out again.
Great, innit? The sole hope for democratic Britain is a bunch of unelected old farts; we're being saved by the (in theory) least representative part of the government. I guess not being accountable to the voters means you can afford to have such unpolitical things like principles and a backbone.
You know, that is the one reason I think the Lords are a good idea. Or were, because they're supposed to be voteable now, aren't they?
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You know, that is the one reason I think the Lords are a good idea. Or were, because they're supposed to be voteable now, aren't they?
Ya. Just like the US Senate. :sigh:
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Isn't there a campaign to "democratize" the House of Lords, and make them elected? Seems to me that would defeat the purpose. Cause once you're in, you can do anything you want, up to and including dressing like a woman in public, and no one can touch you. A bit like University tenures.
sort of, but now Tony Blair wants to place peers in there, replacing life peers with the government selection. Wonder why?..........
and when the Dutch passport problems were mentioned (the Dutch launched a biometric passport using an RFID chip -as with the ID card scheme - which was promptly cracked, allowing peoples' entire identity data to be stolen by people up to 10 feet away), the governments response was to dismiss it as a test (which it obviously bloody well failed, didn't it), and then claim it wouldn't happen because they were better (how? they never said......).
Not entirely true, if you mean the Dutch government dismissed it as a test. It was a test all along. But indeed, it was pretty damn ugly. Due to some idiot using a stupidly calculated key, it was a 31 bit security. PayPal uses something like 384.
Nah, I mean the UKGov response was 'the Dutch system was a test'; and, obviously, if someone cracked the key and stole data, it failed as such. Not much good if you have a test scheme on biometric data, and someone easily steals that info from a distance thanks to the passport design; you'd have to be an idiot to take the results of that test, and then excuse them as acceptable because it was...er...a test.
Regardless of the Dutch governments actions.
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See, this is why my first act in office will be to horribly butcher the vast majority of Parliament....
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See, this is why my first act in office will be to horribly butcher the vast majority of Parliament....
The only way to really make a representive government work as it was intended to is to kill everyone involved with it about every twenty years. Maybe every ten.
And I do mean everyone. You can't just take out the guys in office, you have to kill their staffs, all the lobbying folks, and all the party members who aren't doing clerical work for the party or less.
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The most wonderful thing about the ID card debate is where the Government have not even given a specific, workable scenario where the cards would help to combat crime or terrorism as they claim it will. Clarke could claim that having them increases your sex appeal or reduces the risk of cancer, and the public would lap it up, all under the magic umbrella that it's 'new technology'.
I think great political capital could be made from one of the opposition parties making a commitment to scrapping the scheme and undoing all the damage. It's not like the system will be anywhere near wide implementation in three years time, and they wouldn't be bound by the political 'ratchet effect' - where withdrawing previously implemented policies like healthcare would do more political harm than good. But as usual, no-one has the balls.
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Except the BNP.
Man, the next elections are gonna be a ****ing laugh a minute.
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The most wonderful thing about the ID card debate is where the Government have not even given a specific, workable scenario where the cards would help to combat crime or terrorism as they claim it will. Clarke could claim that having them increases your sex appeal or reduces the risk of cancer, and the public would lap it up, all under the magic umbrella that it's 'new technology'.
I think great political capital could be made from one of the opposition parties making a commitment to scrapping the scheme and undoing all the damage. It's not like the system will be anywhere near wide implementation in three years time, and they wouldn't be bound by the political 'ratchet effect' - where withdrawing previously implemented policies like healthcare would do more political harm than good. But as usual, no-one has the balls.
Hell, Clarke already admitted it couldn't have stopped the July 7th bombings, the day after they happened. And as for immigration, seemingly the other big thing, it's entirely useless unless they make it compulsary (arguably, it becomes even more valuable when forged). The only hope, really, is the inevitability that being so poorly planned, it'll run into massive budget and time problems, forcing a national scandal that causes a proper backbench rebellion.
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Hopefully with guns.
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I think swords would be more appropriate, don't you?
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That's scary.
Even old Johnny here in Aus has been stiring things towards a national ID card.
"Where's your papers? Don't have any?"
*Bang* - Shot in the head.
This is royal bs, if you guys get it through, it will be used as leverage in our government for putting it in too. ><
Goddamn the world is going to ****.
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(http://www.hostedimage.com/usr/2000/toiletpaper_copy1.jpeg)
:p
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Everywhere else would be soon to follow, don't you worry.
It will be on your shores soon enough. :nod:
We can all be undiscriminantly and equally screwed in the arse together.
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You're probably right
Until it is, I'll be laughing heartily at your misfortune. Followed by sobbing.
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You're probably right
Until it is, I'll be laughing heartily at your misfortune. Followed by sobbing.
Are you in the US? You pretty much (will) have them - http://news.com.com/House+approves+electronic+ID+cards/2100-1028_3-5571898.html
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I think swords would be more appropriate, don't you?
Maces, surely? Maybe Heseltine can make a cameo as Tarzan. :)
Let's not forget that the civil service will pick the cheapest, most inept company to actually implement a system with such enormously far reaching implications that the slightest technical **** up - and there will be MANY - mean that people will have their upgraded identities nicked or duplicated. This is probably a good thing for the rest of us, as a few horror stories will catch the public eye with greater effect than a decade of broadsheet diatribes ever will.
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Ha Ha!
And :(
http://www9.sbs.com.au/theworldnews/region.php?id=115984®ion=7
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I think swords would be more appropriate, don't you?
Maces, surely? Maybe Heseltine can make a cameo as Tarzan. :)
Let's not forget that the civil service will pick the cheapest, most inept company to actually implement a system with such enormously far reaching implications that the slightest technical **** up - and there will be MANY - mean that people will have their upgraded identities nicked or duplicated. This is probably a good thing for the rest of us, as a few horror stories will catch the public eye with greater effect than a decade of broadsheet diatribes ever will.
There was a quote from a Frank Dobson on that from a while back (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/02/14/id_cards_escape_scrutiny/page2.html);
But no one outdid Dobson in the use of hyperbole: "The IT systems companies...appear to be competing for the title of intergalactic rip off IT merchant of the decade," he said in defence of greater scrutiny of their work and charges.
"[They] have ripped off the public sector and the private sector time and again through their negligence, incompetence and stupidity," he said, using EDS and Siemens as examples.
Which is pretty evident of the governments problems and idiocy - they don't realise that a half baked scheme with no clear goals or targets is impossible to accurately plan. They come up with bizarre combination utopia-dystopia plans, invite a cheapest-first tender process without being competent to validate the feasibility of that tender plan, and usually end up changing the goals midway through the scheme thanks to the latest tabloid ravings. They simply refuse to face their responsibilities as planners in favour of a 5 minute plan and 5 year debacle. Cause the problem, ignore the blame - it's the New Labour way.
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At least we know the government is unwavering in something other than trying to bugger their fellow man. ;)
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Indeed, as the BCS has pointed out time and again this will be a technical nightmare. There is no set of well defined goals for the system (anti-terrorism... wait, it's fraud, no wait it's actually for entitlements, no wait it's for anti terrorism again), nor is there a clearly stated vision for it's operation (e.g. age of first use, etc).
In short, they're asking the impossible and already planning to blame the poor bastards who have to build it for it's inevitable failure.
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It's a get rich quick scheme, it would be interesting to see how many of the cabinet have 'connections' to IT firms that will amazingly be given huge grants of money to fail, thus, like Railtrack, requiring more huge grants of money.
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I strongly believe that corruption in government is extremely high these days, they've just got smarter at elluding and dumbing the public down.
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If I were the company that won the tender I'd just take the money and move to Brazil.
If you're going to get the blame for ripping off the British public regardless of whatever you do then at least do it deliberately :D
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Or use the money to fund an assault on parliment and take the government over?
Where was it I saw that the entire island of britain was converted into a massive prison of the world?
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Or use the money to fund an assault on parliment and take the government over?
Where was it I saw that the entire island of britain was converted into a massive prison of the world?
BBC news 24?
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BBC news 24?
Not sure. Might've been a post or something.
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Johnny English.
funny movie :nod:
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dunno, we are so used to id cards in italy that it's hard to understand the problem for us.
we have the standard id card, which is valid for all the ue, the passport (necessary only outside ue), 2 health cards (european and italian), driving patent (which worked as valid id document till few years ago), one to be entitled to vote, a facultative card with the fiscal code...not to mention all the id cards to access to private services which are, at least, your choice. Our identities are registered by so many public entities (not to mention all the private ones)....
well I have to admit that on the other hand we in Italy don't have the same religious approach to civil rights (unfourtunately)...
as an example we have for some more than 60 milions people many times the telephon interceptions by public forces than the whole US...
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Johnny English.
funny movie :nod:
Aha, that's the one! LoL.
You get a big cookie. :p
So does Italy have a national ID card though?
The reason why it kicks up a big fuss for me is the possible ways it could be abused. If it gets to the point where if you don't have it on you then police can arrest you... It's just plain out a violation of what we're meant to stand for.
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Italys' current Id card is not biometric or compulsary at the moment, AFAIK it's basically a photo and DOB (which isn't all that different from a passport). One of the major concerns of the UK ID card scheme is the volume of personal information upon it, the issue of being forced to have to prove your identity, and crucially the technology issues; specifically, it'll provide a method of tracking movements via tracking card-check accesses (plus it has RFID for remote reading), and a system where it's easy to 'snoop' on peoples records (owing to a central database designed to facilitate this purpose; this is different from the likes of seperate passport and driving license registries, which have current legal and technical barriers to muck-raking). There's also the issue that the legislation IIRC allows extensive and effectively arbitrary powers to alter the data required upon the card, etc, once passed. And that the government wants to use the card to allow or deny services, such as NHS treatment, which has a massive impetus for discrimination.
Not to mention the financial aspects, which the government has refused to reveal (we're looking at billions of pounds in startup costs, at least £500m per year for the Home Office alone - the only figure the government has revealed - and god knows how much for other affected departments).
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On top of that there is a question of just who will be able to access just what on an ID card. Can your life insurance company access your health details? What about your car insurance company? What about social security? Your employer?
What is shocking about the ID cards is not that those companies can access those details. It's that the government hasn't even seen fit to answer those questions. We don't need to know the answers. It will all be sorted out magically by the time the cards come into play.
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On top of that there is a question of just who will be able to access just what on an ID card. Can your life insurance company access your health details? What about your car insurance company? What about social security? Your employer?
What is shocking about the ID cards is not that those companies can access those details. It's that the government hasn't even seen fit to answer those questions. We don't need to know the answers. It will all be sorted out magically by the time the cards come into play.
The answer of course, being how much they overspend by and need to recoup via charging for access.
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I don't care what the reprucissions would be. I would snap mine in half and burn it. I will never carry around something like this.
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I remember seeing somewhere a way to make an RFID frier. I'll see if I can find it.
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I remember seeing somewhere a way to make an RFID frier. I'll see if I can find it.
Microwave?
Actually, don't high-denomination US$ and Euro notes now have RFID chips in them?
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Well you could always point one at the US Treasury and find out :)
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dunno, we are so used to id cards in italy that it's hard to understand the problem for us.
we have the standard id card, which is valid for all the ue, the passport (necessary only outside ue), 2 health cards (european and italian), driving patent (which worked as valid id document till few years ago), one to be entitled to vote, a facultative card with the fiscal code...not to mention all the id cards to access to private services which are, at least, your choice. Our identities are registered by so many public entities (not to mention all the private ones)....
well I have to admit that on the other hand we in Italy don't have the same religious approach to civil rights (unfourtunately)...
as an example we have for some more than 60 milions people many times the telephon interceptions by public forces than the whole US...
It sounds like you have a awful lot of cards in your wallet.
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Well you could always point one at the US Treasury and find out :)
http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904rfidtagsexplode.html
Obv. not an entirely unbiased source, but if anyone has some cash and a microwave.........
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I've got the cash in my wallet, and the microwave in the room next to me, but I'd rather not risk it the money. Unless someone paypals me 50 euros or so.... :p
Seriously, though, frying the RFID won't help you anything, it would probably just get you arrested.
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It does mean that with a suitable EMP weapon you could fry all the paper money in the US and EU (apart from UK and other non Euro using nations) though. :D
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I'm surprised we don't have it already, really. I'da thought Good old dick and george'd been the first to do this.
EDIT: The ID cards... not the money tracking. That surprises me none.
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I just had a scary thought:
I've gotten a list of the banknote sequences and I'm sitting across the room from you with a laptop. I activate a RFID scanner and pick up that you have 10 banknotes in your wallet and possibly their value. The guy sitting beside me has 5 and a lady a few seats away has 6.
You become my primary target as the 'best value' mugging.
Real world now:
With a few linux based apps I can already sit a few feet away and drag all of the mobile numbers, photos and recordings off your phone via bluetooth. I can make calls, send txt's and rewrite any data not hardcoded into your phone.
Anonymously.
Now this only works with a very few phones and it relies on your bluetooth being switched on but a new proof of concept program has been devised that allows you to attack any B'tooth phone due to the security being lax.
What happens when we can read data straight off your medical card to find where you live, steal your identity for credit fraud in another country, rewrite your medication... ?
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So...who can I write to try and keep this from happening in the US?
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Scary indeed.
I guess we need a guy in a big white mask to save us... :nervous: (http://vforvendetta.warnerbros.com/)
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Meh? Guy Fawkes, the action hero?! :/
Guy Fawkes was a weasly little stoat of a man, his wish to blow up Parliament was based on racism and greed, he wanted to 'Blow the Scots back to Scotland'. In many ways the young Parliament was the only thing stopping the King from being a lot worse (Though it is claimed that deliberate dithering and misdirection on the part of Parliament for political gain was what first allowed the Protestant/Catholic horror to take place in Ireland - long story).
Oh well, looks bloody hilarious, some guy in a Guy Fawkes outfit vs The Government LOL
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Is there a DVD version of that story?
Or do I have to read some more. :(
I wish I had discovery channel sometimes...
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So...who can I write to try and keep this from happening in the US?
I'd say your federal government would be the trick but send it to every government station up the chain.
If your serious though dude, I am very awe'd and applaud you vigorously.
I tire of people just arguing about stuff on the net, yet not taking any action to resolve the problem in the real world.
Infact you've inspired me too. I'm going to email some government officials and ask for more information on the situation and my outviews on it thus far.
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Well, basically, the king was at odds with Parliament, he was a Protestant, but his wife was Catholic, and the King strongly believed in the return to the 'King as Deity' form of ruling. The King had to call parliament to raise money to go to War, that had been the way of things for about 200 years, but Parliament did not always agree with the King, so he was loathe to call sessions unless vital.
Parliament, however, angry at the King for taking a Catholic wife worked actively against them, effectively co-ercing the king to arrest and execute one of his own Lords (who happened to be in Northern Ireland). To cut things short, Parliaments dithering in giving the King money to defend against the Catholic Armies rampaging across Europe, coupled with NI's Catholic populations own fear of oppression (Aided and egged on by people sent by the Vatican) rose in rebellion. The official start of the War was the Slaughter and drowning of Protestants by Catholics near the River where the Orangemen now march, over 500 years ago. That's one of the official versions, though I suspect the whole truth goes much much farther.
Basically it was scared people being scared. I'll see if I can find you a link.
Edit : http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/europe/ireland/historytimeline.html
Note : This is a very contentious issue, I severely doubt you will find two people or even 2 articles that agree entirely on the causes ;)
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dunno, we are so used to id cards in italy that it's hard to understand the problem for us.
we have the standard id card, which is valid for all the ue, the passport (necessary only outside ue), 2 health cards (european and italian), driving patent (which worked as valid id document till few years ago), one to be entitled to vote, a facultative card with the fiscal code...not to mention all the id cards to access to private services which are, at least, your choice. Our identities are registered by so many public entities (not to mention all the private ones)....
well I have to admit that on the other hand we in Italy don't have the same religious approach to civil rights (unfourtunately)...
as an example we have for some more than 60 milions people many times the telephon interceptions by public forces than the whole US...
It sounds like you have a awful lot of cards in your wallet.
indeed
btw I got the point, I agree that it may sound scary to have all those infos stored with a not completely secure system but isn't it probably the future to have some id system with all our important infos at once?. Something like minority report. I don't say it's necessary a nice future, I just say that it make sense.
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dunno, we are so used to id cards in italy that it's hard to understand the problem for us.
we have the standard id card, which is valid for all the ue, the passport (necessary only outside ue), 2 health cards (european and italian), driving patent (which worked as valid id document till few years ago), one to be entitled to vote, a facultative card with the fiscal code...not to mention all the id cards to access to private services which are, at least, your choice. Our identities are registered by so many public entities (not to mention all the private ones)....
well I have to admit that on the other hand we in Italy don't have the same religious approach to civil rights (unfourtunately)...
as an example we have for some more than 60 milions people many times the telephon interceptions by public forces than the whole US...
It sounds like you have a awful lot of cards in your wallet.
indeed
btw I got the point, I agree that it may sound scary to have all those infos stored with a not completely secure system but isn't it probably the future to have some id system with all our important infos at once?. Something like minority report. I don't say it's necessary a nice future, I just say that it make sense.
It's only the future if we allow it.......
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The Future is simply any time after 'now'. I suppose some would consider it the 'Way Forward', but those kind of people never mention where the 'Forward' is pointing towards ;)
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"Don't tell me you're afraid of the past
It's only the future that didn't last"
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I just say that it make sense, not that it is desireable or right.
I can see many reasons/interests to do so, even for the final users. If those reasons/interests are dissonant with a certain view of the human civil rights (which determine then the relationship between the power and the citizens) is different, althought very probable. Probably the true question is how that relationship will change and how it has to be and why. Indeed it is wrong to accept a reform for its practical reasons underevaluating all the implications.
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I think the main disgruntledness is are we doing it for the right reasons, and what measures are in place to prevent a total screw up and / or abuse of the system.
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I think the main disgruntledness is are we doing it for the right reasons, and what measures are in place to prevent a total screw up and / or abuse of the system.
The disgunteldness in the Uk is what reason are we doing it for? Because the government has failed to give a reason, and even outright contradicted themselves over it. They've given false figures for losses due to fraud (and failed to disclose how those would be removed by an Id card), and Gordon Browns' statements a few days ago that Id cards would prevent 7/7 style attacks directly contradicted by Charles Clarke saying the opposite after 7/7 (that ID cards would not have prevented an attack). There's not a single solidly backed reason to analyse, and the government has refused to give one or address questions.
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Well it would help if they did establish a reason for it in the first place.
I think here, lil'Johnny just want's to fast pedal everything through the government while he still has the majority of control. I still reckon that our government has broken our constitution when they brought in the new industrial relations laws to screw over the common worker.
IIRC we are supposed to have a national referendum before something like that can be brought in.
They just re-interperet the laws every few years so they can find loop-holes and do as they please.
If it continues on the way its going now, I reckon we're not far off from an uprising against the government's in place today. It's getting beyond bull****.
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The problem is that once a government becomes large enough and centralized enough, it starts existing as an end unto itself, completely independent of its original purpose. It starts growing, swelling, and feeding like a meta-organism. Eventually it grows so big and so harmful that it destroys its host country or mutates it into something unrecognizable.
Two solutions: Don't let it reach critical mass, or excise it when it does.
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So...who can I write to try and keep this from happening in the US?
I'd say your federal government would be the trick but send it to every government station up the chain.
If your serious though dude, I am very awe'd and applaud you vigorously.
I tire of people just arguing about stuff on the net, yet not taking any action to resolve the problem in the real world.
Infact you've inspired me too. I'm going to email some government officials and ask for more information on the situation and my outviews on it thus far.
I'm definitely thinking on it. Something that SCP has made me realize is how easy it is for problems to get overlooked. One PM can have far more effect than dozens of people having the problem and just griping to their friends about a problem and how sloppy those SCP programmers are.
Most people I meet don't strike me as the type to actually mail/e-mail reps about it, so I figure that's just one more person that they'd assume that my mail could count for. I doubt I'd get a personal response even so, but at least then I could legitimately ***** about being ignored. ;)