Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Frankie on February 23, 2006, 02:01:06 pm
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Ship selection says that ships have differing numbers of primary banks, yet weapon selection and the HUD show two slots (or rarely just one) with one gun each. What exactly is going on from a numerical game mechanics point of view?
For example, Myrmidons supposedly have 6 PB and 2 SB (pretty sure that's a mistake in the VP, they have 3 SB, but I digress). Does that mean there are 3 guns each in slots A and B, therefore 3x damage and 3x energy usage?
[ Side note for SCP dev consideration: if so, wouldn't it make more sense for the weapon selector to take 3 subachs (or whatever) from the locker and show a little number 3 in the Pbank, just like missile counts in Sbank? Also, showing "3* Subach" (or whatever) in the HUD, modulo screen real estate limits? End side note. ]
Is that correct? Or is the whole primary count a scam and it's just one gun per slot? Or were both of these plausible options replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable?
p.s. What happens when you link the slots together? Do they use the fire rate of the slower weapon or is there a more complicated formula?
Thanks for any info.
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A single weapon can be linked to several banks according to the modelers desires. It's not a game mechanic as such, but part of the model - fire up modelview and take a look at the guns tab to see it in action. On the myrmidon for instance, one gun is linked to 4 banks and the other to 2.
For energy use, it seems to increase linearly with number of banks. Damage does too, assuming you hit with all the shots which is no certainty. There's no change in firing frequency.
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Thanks for the info. A shame gun count isn't shown in the weapon selector, it would help.
About fire rate, I meant what happens during play when you set both slots to fire together (aka press period twice)?
Also, I don't see modelview anywhere in fs2_open either binary or source. Does it run on *nix?
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If you are using FS2_Open you should use the -ship_choice_3d option.
The weapons loadout screen will now show you a rotating model of the ship with the weapon banks labelled.
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When you link primaries, they each fire at their own rate. If i recall correctly though, there is some key you can use to synchronize them to fire at the rate of the slowest weapon, but then again maybe that was some other spacesim because I can't seem to find it now that I'm looking for it.
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If you link primaries the rate of fire is slightly lowered.
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True, forgot to add that. A subach will fire faster than a prometheus as always, but both weapons will havea refire delay slightly longer than normal when linked. And I still can't find the key to synch primaries, so I am probably dead wrong on that and just saw it in wing commander or some suchs and have had it lurking around subconciously ever since ;)
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I was always curious whether you did more damage per second with subachs linked in the 4 and 2 gun banks (linked, 6 projectiles at once but slower rate of fire) or with just using the subachs on the 4 bank in faster single fire mode.
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If you are using FS2_Open you should use the -ship_choice_3d option.
Wow, that's a huge help. Thanks much.
One question though, why does Perseus (possibly others, didn't check) show the PBanks as having 2 guns each?
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Because they have two guns each? It's a straightforward mapping of where the weapon in the selection box will fire from.
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Perseus is only supposed to have 2 guns total. The model seems to show 4.
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Ignore the stats, they are teh silly.
Unless you're using the 3.6.8 mediaVPs, which should fix that sort of thing. Unless I forgot to put that in.
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:welcome:
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I was always curious whether you did more damage per second with subachs linked in the 4 and 2 gun banks (linked, 6 projectiles at once but slower rate of fire) or with just using the subachs on the 4 bank in faster single fire mode.
the 4 alone would do more damage. linking guns cuts the fire rate of both in half.
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edit: double post.
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Oh cool. I didn't know by what percentage the fire rate dropped. Any decrease by more than 1/3 would make linking identical weapons pointless in these cases, so the 1/2 number is good to know.
Well, I guess if you're a crack shot and all 6 rounds can destroy a target in one shot where 4 cannot, then it still is sensible, but that doesn't occur very often. I perfer higher rates of fire to more damaging shots anyway, damge over time being equal.
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linking guns cuts the fire rate of both in half.
Are you absolutely sure about that, aka you've seen it in the source code? Half speed would mean 2 banks of the same guns would be useless at best, or possibly even worse than leaving the second bank empty.
Ignore the stats, they are teh silly.
When you say "the stats", do you mean the text that says "Primary Banks: 2" or the 4 glowing dots on the Perseus model?
I'm trying to get an nice and accurate quantification of how this game works. So far I've seen several false or counterintuitive numbers, and I haven't even started to consider "Rotation time", "Damp", et al.
Thanks to everyone who's helping explain this.
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The lines pointing to the number of banks on the rotating ship model are accurate as the game actually looks at the model itself.
The text is basically read from a table file and if someone decided to change the model they'd have to update the file (which it appears they forgot to do).
As such you should trust the model rather than any text since it auto updates :)
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linking guns cuts the fire rate of both in half.
Are you absolutely sure about that, aka you've seen it in the source code? Half speed would mean 2 banks of the same guns would be useless at best, or possibly even worse than leaving the second bank empty.
Why not try it out? Fred a simple mission with a disabled fighter as a target..
What you'll find is that linked guns will kill it faster. Still, non-linked is better if you miss a lot.
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look, if you have a 2 gun bank that does x damage per second, and another 2 gun bank that does x damage per second, linking them together halves there rate of fire, so you still get x damage per seond. anything else and the game would be unblanced and would take away a lot of the strategy involved in using primaries.
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*Dons collapsed-core molybdenum armor to protect self from HLP firepower*
Good a time to start posting as any... so a fighter with one four gun bank has twice the primary firepower of a fighter with two, two gun banks?
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Close to twice, at least :)
Carl, why would a slight difference in damage/s take a way a lot of the strategy? (it could also add something).
I was testing this a long time ago, and back then that was my observation. Seems I need to try it again now..
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It would take away a lot of the strategy because you have to figure out how to balance your weapons correctly. having 2 different types of weapons linked together blends their effects together, instead of adding them.
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It would take away a lot of the strategy because you have to figure out how to balance your weapons correctly. having 2 different types of weapons linked together blends their effects together, instead of adding them.
On the other hand, filling up all the banks of an eyrines with prometheus S cannons makes for nice long range 1-2 shot kills. I think that linking should do slightly more than 1/2 damage because otherwise it's mostly pointless compared to just switching to the best gun for the task-at-hand.
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Tried this setting now: A Fenris with hull at 40% + A1 as HercII, two banks of Kaysers.
=> with linked guns it took 14 secs to bring the Fenris down, 19 secs with one bank.
This suggest a single/linked fp ratio of 74% (about).
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What does it say in the actual source code? Anyone know for sure? :confused:
I've found that play-testing for statistics in general yeilds inaccurate results.
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This suggest a single/linked fp ratio of 74% (about).
Sounds a whole lot like 3/4ths, aka fire wait time is increased by 50%, which is a nice round number that a game designer might use. Thanks much for the empirical data.
Now that that appears to be settled, I have a few short followup questions, based on the following info:
| Armor/sec | Shield/sec | Subsys/sec | Energy/sec | Range |
| Kayser | 112 | 100.8 | 39.2 | 4.8 | 975 |
| Prometheus S | 77.14 | 85.71 | 30 | 2.86 | 1500 |
| Maxim | 173.3 | 26.67 | 133.3 | 6.67 | 3600 |
| Mekhu | 72 | 64 | 24 | 1.33 | 970 |
| Subach | 67.5 | 52.5 | 22.5 | 1 | 900 |
| Prometheus R | 44 | 32 | 14 | 1.33 | 900 |
| Akheton | 0 | 42.86 | 85.71 | 4.57 | 750 |
| Morning Star | 23.33 | 60.67 | 9.33 | 5.33 | 2000 |
| Circe | 0 | 112.5 | 0 | 2.5 | 1350 |
| Lamprey | 4.67 | 46.67 | 0 | 4 | 900 |
1: Given that Subach beats Prom-R in all damage categories, uses less energy, and has the same range, why the #*!! did anyone ever think it made sense to treat Prom-R as an upgrade? The main campaign (and BR's Homesick, FWIW) starts you with Subach, then opens up Prom-R in later missions like some sort of bonus gift.
2: The range on Maxim is WAY too high, right? Any small ship in the game with a single Maxim can take out any capital ship.
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1: Given that Subach beats Prom-R in all damage categories, uses less energy, and has the same range, why the #*!! did anyone ever think it made sense to treat Prom-R as an upgrade? The main campaign (and BR's Homesick, FWIW) starts you with Subach, then opens up Prom-R in later missions like some sort of bonus gift.
Prom-R is the ultimate useless piece of crap, everyone agrees.
2: The range on Maxim is WAY too high, right? Any small ship in the game with a single Maxim can take out any capital ship.
High range, yep. And high energy usage, and its hard to hit small targets with it (from distance). And something tells my you didn't really try and kill them big capships :)
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There is some debate over whether or not the Maxim (and Trebuchet) are overly effective as they both can decimate anything smaller then a destroyer well beyond anti-fighter range. But... yeah, the Prom R is generally regarded as a mistake, it's way under-balanced.
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High range, yep. And high energy usage, and its hard to hit small targets with it (from distance). And something tells my you didn't really try and kill them big capships :)
Hmm, what do you call "big"? Maybe it's because I was on Easy mode (hey it's my first time playing any Descent game ever) but in the main campaign I killed at least a Ravana, and in Derelict I killed one or more Ravanas, Molochs, and the Auriga (Orion+), just using Maxims in the lower primary bank plus whatever missiles when appropriate.
Key was to disable engines, fly away, then whomp it at leisure after completing mission objectives. Also killed a Lucifer (Derelict) and a Sathanas (forget where), although it seemed like they weren't fighting back as hard as they could have.
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You quite literally can't take out anything larger than a cruiser with the Maxim alone. The game prevents it. You can come close, but primaries can't deliver the finishing blow.
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primaries can't deliver the finishing blow.
Like I said though, any fighter in the game with a single Maxim (plus a few missiles) can take out any capital ship. It's so unfair, I feel sad for the simulated crew of those superdestroyers I keep slaughtering. :(
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You quite literally can't take out anything larger than a cruiser with the Maxim alone. The game prevents it. You can come close, but primaries can't deliver the finishing blow.
I've taken out Molochs with them, so you can do it. I haven't tried with destroyers or juggernauts though.
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Like I said though, any fighter in the game with a single Maxim (plus a few missiles) can take out any capital ship. It's so unfair, I feel sad for the simulated crew of those superdestroyers I keep slaughtering. :(
Only if the capital ship is stupid enough to sit there and take it. And doesn't launch fighters of its own.
And it's not a few missiles. It's a very large number of trebuchets.
I've taken out Molochs with them, so you can do it. I haven't tried with destroyers or juggernauts though.
And you didn't mantis/fix this bug why? :p
Seriously though :v: obviously didn't intend for corvettes and above to be fighter-killable in the FS2 universe and actually went to some lengths to make certain that abusing the treb was the only way to do it.
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And it's not a few missiles. It's a very large number of trebuchets.
Okay, sorry I derailed the conversation by saying "destroy". Instead I'll state that in my experience so far, whenever I have any Maxim-armed small ship up against any capital ship head-to-head, the fighter can disable every subsystem, destroy every turret, and bring the capship down to 1% hull. Maxim's range is just plain unfair.
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Ah. That's true. But you're meant to deploy fighters to stop that sort of thing.
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IMO, Trebuchet is very unfair, as you can disarm destroyers with it easily. You can take out all its beams from 5000 klicks, because their turrets won't destroy incoming Trebuchets. Then you'll just have to wait for friendly capital ships to beam it to death. Some fighters (like Tauret) can carry 26 of these. Makes most mission a walk in the park.
By the way, are those 'tactical' (Kinetic) weapons of any use? I've only tried them couple of times, because I prefer destroying my enemies to poking them. That's why I usually just pick Erinyes with pair of Kaysers.
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I personally don't like the Morning Star, but I liked the flail in Descent: Freespace because it actually did some damage to sheilds. The point of such weapons is to freeze enemies in place so that your missiles have a chance to lock-on, the difficulty I have with them in general on higher difficulties is the ship I'm "freezing" will turn around and fire what seems like all of their ordinance at me.
If you like the Erinyes with duel Kaysers then do yourself a favor and turn up the difficulty: usually people fly the Erinyes with a Subach/Kayser combination, or duel Prometheus S. Kaysers drain your energy banks faster then anything save the Maxim and will drain them in seconds on any difficulty but Very Easy. Test it out for yourself, when you get to Clash of Titan's II give yourself the Erinyes with duel Kaysers on medium and try to save all of the cruisers. You can't recharge your primaries much while your running from one wing to anouther. For that very reason my favorite weapon is the Subach HL-7, you virtually can't run out of energy with it on anything other then Insane (which I'm trying (and failing) to play the main campagin on currently, I had problems with an empty primary bank on The Roman's Blunder.)
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If you like the Erinyes with duel Kaysers then do yourself a favor and turn up the difficulty: usually people fly the Erinyes with a Subach/Kayser combination, or duel Prometheus S. Kaysers drain your energy banks faster then anything save the Maxim and will drain them in seconds on any difficulty but Very Easy. Test it out for yourself, when you get to Clash of Titan's II give yourself the Erinyes with duel Kaysers on medium and try to save all of the cruisers. You can't recharge your primaries much while your running from one wing to anouther. For that very reason my favorite weapon is the Subach HL-7, you virtually can't run out of energy with it on anything other then Insane (which I'm trying (and failing) to play the main campagin on currently, I had problems with an empty primary bank on The Roman's Blunder.)
Tip: While you're using your afterburners, transfer all your energy to weapons. Your primaries will recharge but your speed won't be affected. When your afterburner runs out, rebalance your energy again. :)
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I personally don't like the Morning Star, but I liked the flail in Descent: Freespace because it actually did some damage to sheilds. The point of such weapons is to freeze enemies in place so that your missiles have a chance to lock-on, the difficulty I have with them in general on higher difficulties is the ship I'm "freezing" will turn around and fire what seems like all of their ordinance at me.
If you like the Erinyes with duel Kaysers then do yourself a favor and turn up the difficulty: usually people fly the Erinyes with a Subach/Kayser combination, or duel Prometheus S. Kaysers drain your energy banks faster then anything save the Maxim and will drain them in seconds on any difficulty but Very Easy. Test it out for yourself, when you get to Clash of Titan's II give yourself the Erinyes with duel Kaysers on medium and try to save all of the cruisers. You can't recharge your primaries much while your running from one wing to anouther. For that very reason my favorite weapon is the Subach HL-7, you virtually can't run out of energy with it on anything other then Insane (which I'm trying (and failing) to play the main campagin on currently, I had problems with an empty primary bank on The Roman's Blunder.)
Funny you mention it, I just played that mission. I play on Medium, never on Very Easy :ick: Granted, I had to pick the Ares for that, to get those 24 Trebuchets. Can't trust any job to the wingman. IIRC, I managed to save all the cruisers, or then one died, I'm not sure. Usually when I'm blasting bombers I turn primary energy a notch or two up. When I'm done, I leave one notch to guns, rest to engines. Then at full burn to next wing.
The Erinyes with dual Kaysers works better against Shivan fighters. Lure them into a head-to-head, and blast away. That's a bit risky if there are a lot of fighters, especially on harder difficulties. Fighters like Manticore and Astaroth take only one or two shots to bring down. Which is nice, given that dogfighting them can take time.
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In that case, I've been doing something horribly, horribly wrong :nervous:. I'd better figure out how to use that ETS.
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If I were re-releasing freespace 2, I'd make trebuchets bomb targetable. They're fast enough that a barrage would make it through, but the capital ships should have a fighting chance angainst some guy in an Aries at 5k lobbing in trebs 1 at a time.
Maxims do too much subsystem damage for their range I think. Either cap ships should have gotten subsystem shielding, maxims should do less damage, should be ballistic to avoid abuse.Or cap ships should get 3km weapons to shoot back with. I think on hard difficulty though, maxims become more feasable because it's hard to keep them fed with energy without sacrificing speed or shields, making them a liability, which they should be with the damage they do. On easy though, maxims are cheese.
Do tag missles ever do anything useful besides make for a mission objective?
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Whoa! :bump:
I agree with you about Maxims and Trebs.
TAG missiles only work on properly FREDed missions, I'm not sure how many in the main campagin are properly FREDed, at least the one with the GTCv Warspite in the Barracudas.
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[...]
If you like the Erinyes with duel Kaysers then do yourself a favor and turn up the difficulty: usually people fly the Erinyes with a Subach/Kayser combination, or duel Prometheus S. Kaysers drain your energy banks faster then anything save the Maxim and will drain them in seconds on any difficulty but Very Easy. Test it out for yourself, when you get to Clash of Titan's II give yourself the Erinyes with duel Kaysers on medium and try to save all of the cruisers. You can't recharge your primaries much while your running from one wing to anouther. For that very reason my favorite weapon is the Subach HL-7, you virtually can't run out of energy with it on anything other then Insane (which I'm trying (and failing) to play the main campagin on currently, I had problems with an empty primary bank on The Roman's Blunder.)
hi,
in the erinyes one kaysers are enough or all other fighters were a single bank have 4 guns (best compination is kaysers/maxim), if you have only 2x2 its better to use it linked, like in perseus.
use it single, the firerate is very high and the powerdrain is not so high.
if you want a little bit more area damge put it in the first bank, for point damage use the second bank, but i think the first bank is better.
you can shot with a single kaysers without problem a wing of 4 seraphims really fast down and you have in the most time enaugh energy to shot directly one or two other bomber down, too.
and imho is with the single bank in the erinyes the rate of shots that not completely hit lower as with the linked bank and so you saving energy too.
Mehrpack
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I usually go with a keyser and a maxim in an erinyes, only use one or the other on single fire, turn up my weapon power as much as I can get away with, and make sure that I don't shoot unless I know I'm going to hit. Power drain is insane, but so is the damage.