Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Unknown Target on March 04, 2006, 07:05:41 pm
-
I was just watching some TOS movies (Star Trek II and VI to be exact), and it got me thinking. I went and browsed the official Star Trek website and started thinking some more...what does everyone think that Star Trek should do to remain relevant and new? Let's assume that they continue the rest break they're taking until, oh, 2010, and then they want to do something. What would bring Star Trek back to being a household name?
I'll save my opinions for a little later, after some people post some of their own.
-
It should retain its surviving dignity and never come back again. In my opinion, Star Trek survived intact only through The Next Generation. After that, it begins to resemble El Cid-- dead but propped up on a stake. Its humanist philosophy is outdated and no longer fits.
-
What are you talking about? I personally thought DS9 was the best of the lot (though that might have something to do with it being on when I was of the "right" age for it to make an impression). Look, if hundred or thousand year-old stories can be made relevant, I'm pretty sure a fourty-year old license can. It's just that someone should do it right, that's all.
-
It's just that someone should do it right, that's all.
therin lies the question, who'd be the right person?
to me, it'd haveta feel right, like "epic", the star-trek universe has a lotta life left in it, just gotta be pulled off correctly.
-
DS9 wasn't trek though, it was "Somthing else in the trek universe"
That said, i agree TOS and TNG were the only dignified parts.
-
DS9 wasn't trek though, it was "Somthing else in the trek universe"
That said, i agree TOS and TNG were the only dignified parts.
Dominion War!? The closest any other series had to this was the Borg of NG / Klingons of TOS.
I don't know how many of you watched Enterprise but I would like to see the future that Daniel's lived in w/ the ships and their problems etc.
Or maybe see a future where some of the tech involved in Armada/2 are actually made and put to use.
-
I think the mass media--especially television-- tends to act more as a reflection of a society's direction than as a forum for real discourse, and I just feel like American culture has grown out of Star Trek, (and make no mistake, Star Trek is about as American as a show can get.) It had an ethical and scientific innocence about it that just hasn't kept up with the evolution of our society. The notion of a committed group of heroes travelling to spread freedom and justice feels simplistic now, as does Star Trek's liberal use of science and technology to the point of it being just magic. The Federation is a society in which people have overcome their differences to work towards a model civilization. Well how the hell did that happen? What was the catalyst for this complete shift in humanity's collective psychology? Space travel? Superior alien beings? That doesn't cut it anymore. We have too many questions to ask and answer about how, or if, such a world is even possible. The paradigms of American culture have suffered too much of a beating for us as a society to believe in Star Trek's universe anymore. Some people argue that we can change Star Trek to fit the times. But what's the point? It's not Star Trek anymore. I say just box it, enjoy it for what it is, and make way for people with new ideas.
-
I agree with Ford here. The whole idealist communism setting just doesn't work anymore. Frankly, I'd better settle for the Firely "can't make humans better" idea. Star Trek appeals because it is what people want to happen--an idealistic society where everyone works for the common good and not for personal gain. Firefly, on the other hand, is more real and understandable, being anti-war and anti-government, as well as being against the idea that humans can be made better than they are.
-
So you're saying that Star Trek-as-BSG wouldn't be Star Trek? Maybe, maybe not. Like I said, stories and themes are immortal, if they're any good that is. Romeo and Juliet is as relevant today (aside from the "thous" and "arts", but that's just the skin) as it was when it was written, as it will be a hundred years from now. Exploration, the final frontier, that will never go out of style, because there's always another final frontier. Likewise, idealism 'n all that may not be "in", but you're looking through a very narrow lens, spanning months or years. It has endured for millenia, and probably will for many more.
Go and read Orbiter (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=644") by Warren Ellis (which you should do anyway, cause it's awsome (anyone notice how I'm the only one around here pimping comics)) and tell me Star Trek is no longer relevant.
-
Romeo and Juliet is relevant because it addresses themes independent of specific cultural traits, as is arguably the case with most of the greatest literature. I have yet to see a television drama that achieves that kind of universality with a tenth of the artistry that Shakepeare's work had. In fact, I have yet to see a television drama that does this at all. Television is an extremely culture-driven medium. It speaks mostly to the people of its time and place.
-
Actually what would make Trek work are two things:
Go back to the initial 'Next Gen' idea of "no technobabble because we're too high tech for it" (i.e. no dilithium crystals breaking down every episode).
Have a large ship that's almost like a city which is self-sufficient but has all of the bells and whistles of all previous Trek serieses. (slipstream, phased cloaks, you name it)
Have this ship as part of the Federation's new voyages of exploration though the galaxy and add in a curveball:
Another civilization has made contact with the Milky Way, and this ship goes through their foothold on a mission of exploration.
A culture that is very technologically advanced, consists of millions of species and dozens of galaxies but one major issue: highly individualistic and hedonistic- they interfere with everything.
Both the feds and this group are well-intentioned but most episodes deal with the culture clash. While this new ship goes around discovering and contacting new species, it's also dealing with the reprecussions of this other culture. (and they reprimand the Federation for not intervening in genocidal wars, etc. on less advanced planets)
Pretty much the metaplot would look at colonialization v.s. non-interference and the reprecussions of both. Tons of tech for geek mastrubation, but also it's a sideline to the reprecussions of such tech. (sure you have that particle of the week, but you blew up half a star system MacKay...)
The Federation meddling in these people's galaxy, and their meddling in the regular 'Trek one is another big issue. What happens when these people meet the Borg and feel that experiencing being a drone is a good idea? Sure they leave the Collective, but now the Borg have assimilated some of that tech and use it on a rampage.
What are the side effects of these people encountering the Kelvan Empire and a few decide to conquer some planets for them and also mention what happened to their scouting party?
What about the V'Ger machine planet?
etc. etc.
Pretty much establish a few new species as main players, but mainly look at dropped plot threads that deal with the inter-galactic politics.
-
or go way beyond the scope of the previous treks and kick things off in other galaxy, such as a federation expedition made up of multiple ships, tons of new opportunities for races, tech, and character building. and if you go slightly beyond the next-gen era (TNG, Voyager, DS9, etc) new ship classes would be evident.
if it hadn't already been done, i'd go for something equivelant to elite force, but stargate already has that covered, really.
-
They should:
- Do a series based around a front-line fleet, set during and just after the Dominion War, featuring all the little-seen aspects of Starfleet. Ground assaults, covert ops, fighter squadrons, hit-n-run attacks - that kinda thing. They could fill the post-war seasons with the fleet trying to defend the Romulan Star Empire from the Breen and/or policing actions against pirates and rogue powers trying to capitalise on the beating the Federation Alliance fleets took by invading border worlds.
- Do a series set back during the Federation-Klingon War and show lots of old-school BOP-Constitution battles.
- Borg Invasion.
-
They should:
- Do a series based around a front-line fleet, set during and just after the Dominion War, featuring all the little-seen aspects of Starfleet. Ground assaults, covert ops, fighter squadrons, hit-n-run attacks - that kinda thing. They could fill the post-war seasons with the fleet trying to defend the Romulan Star Empire from the Breen and/or policing actions against pirates and rogue powers trying to capitalise on the beating the Federation Alliance fleets took by invading border worlds.
- Do a series set back during the Federation-Klingon War and show lots of old-school BOP-Constitution battles.
- Borg Invasion.
that works, also. it'd be also chance to see the little known details of various races/factions, particularly the borg, like how they started, etc.
and given how after the dominion war, the alliance between the feds/klingons/romulans would begin to crumble really quickly.
-
I seem to remember someone saying something about the Klingons invading and conquering the Romulan Star Empire in a possible future.
And the Klingons have the most experience fighting the Breen. So it'd be a nice tie-in if the Breen invaded the RSE, the Klingons moved in to defend (as some lingering part of the Alliance treaty obligations), the Remans revolted and took control of the Empire during the chaos, the Klingons drove the Breen off, the Romulans as a race collapsed and fled to Vulcan and the Federation, the Klingons annihilated the Reman fleet and took the Romulan Empire under Alliance control.
-
I seem to remember someone saying something about the Klingons invading and conquering the Romulan Star Empire in a possible future.
And the Klingons have the most experience fighting the Breen. So it'd be a nice tie-in if the Breen invaded the RSE, the Klingons moved in to defend (as some lingering part of the Alliance treaty obligations), the Remans revolted and took control of the Empire during the chaos, the Klingons drove the Breen off, the Romulans as a race collapsed and fled to Vulcan and the Federation, the Klingons annihilated the Reman fleet and took the Romulan Empire under Alliance control.
that seems far more logical than anything we've seen in recent trek, that's for sure.
-
one thing that can save startrek is to drop the libral hippie nonesence. i very much doubt it is possible for one political idea to reign supream. there needs to be other political perspectives expressed in the show, else everyone looks like an ignorant heard follower. also the mood of the show could stand for some change. its generally too happy and is seldom dark. ds9 came close to sheding that aspect but it didnt catch in other series. shifting ds9 to the dominion war was a good plan, but it didnt stick very well in following series.
stop running starship-central plots. theres 4 series revolving around starships and their crews already and i dont think we need anymore of those. ds9 is an example of a sucsessful implementation of a new idea in trek. spacestation-central plot added a new perspective to the startrek universe but its still too similar to starships. perhaps a plot involving civilians, or another spiecies all together (like klingons or romulans). perhaps a war central series. also there are eras in the trek universe that are completely uncovered by any show or movie. like the era between kirk and picard, where alot of intresting stuff supposidly happened. enterprice b and c dispite being shown a couple of times are completely ignored. perhaps something post 24th century. a full out borg-federation conflict in the 25th century would be a good one. something where the borg have control of a majority of the galaxy and the federation and its allies must band together to stop them.
voyager and enterprise were failures in my opinion because of poor character design. enteprise had slightly better characters but still suffered the same problem. opossed to shows with really good characters (b5 and more so bsg, which had characters that intrested me from day 1). so additional effort must be put into cast selection and character design. id also like to see more of the classic aliens rather than a bunch of new spicies being introduced.
otherwise its dead. i never bothered to watch the end of voyager and i watched a few episodes of enterprise. none the less il give startrek another chance should a new series come up. none the less i thonk the coffins done been nailed.
-
one thing that can save startrek is to drop the libral hippie nonesence .
perhaps a political rift between those who want to uphold the laid-back "wait and see" approach, and those who want to take a more direct approach to how the federation does things.
kinda what separates the kirks from the picards, as it were.
-
"i never bothered to watch the end of voyager"
Janeway went back in time and gave herself ubber weapons of the future and killed all the Borg singlehandedly
-
one thing that can save startrek is to drop the libral hippie nonesence. i very much doubt it is possible for one political idea to reign supream. there needs to be other political perspectives expressed in the show, else everyone looks like an ignorant heard follower. also the mood of the show could stand for some change. its generally too happy and is seldom dark. ds9 came close to sheding that aspect but it didnt catch in other series. shifting ds9 to the dominion war was a good plan, but it didnt stick very well in following series.
If you change that, it's not Trek anymore. The fact of the matter is, Trek was first created to be an idyllic telling of the future, where everyone is happy and works to better themselves, all set in our little corner of the Galaxy with political intrigue and soforth. DS9 went a little dark, and it payed off, but if you want something nice, dark and dirty, go watch Galactica.
stop running starship-central plots. theres 4 series revolving around starships and their crews already and i dont think we need anymore of those. ds9 is an example of a sucsessful implementation of a new idea in trek. spacestation-central plot added a new perspective to the startrek universe but its still too similar to starships. perhaps a plot involving civilians, or another spiecies all together (like klingons or romulans). perhaps a war central series. also there are eras in the trek universe that are completely uncovered by any show or movie. like the era between kirk and picard, where alot of intresting stuff supposidly happened. enterprice b and c dispite being shown a couple of times are completely ignored. perhaps something post 24th century. a full out borg-federation conflict in the 25th century would be a good one. something where the borg have control of a majority of the galaxy and the federation and its allies must band together to stop them.
I highly doubt that anyone other than the Federation are going to play centre stage in any Trek. Moreover, it'll always be spaceborne, whether it be a station or starship, that's one of the core facets of Trek. It would be kinda cool to see the exploits of the Ent-B [If I remember that ep of TNG correctly, the Ent-C gets destroyed relatively early in her career defending a Klingon station or something], but there is no way to bring back the Borg, like it or not Voyager killed 'em.
voyager and enterprise were failures in my opinion because of poor character design. enteprise had slightly better characters but still suffered the same problem. opossed to shows with really good characters (b5 and more so bsg, which had characters that intrested me from day 1). so additional effort must be put into cast selection and character design. id also like to see more of the classic aliens rather than a bunch of new spicies being introduced.
Voyager... i'll give you that one. The characters were wooden all the way through, and the amount of change was effectively nill [see: the fabled Voyager reset button]. Ent on the other hand was just mishandled for the first few seasons, its potential going thoroughly untapped. However, it really managed to shine in its fourth season when someone who actually knew what they were doing took the reigns [Koto I believe].
otherwise its dead. i never bothered to watch the end of voyager and i watched a few episodes of enterprise. none the less il give startrek another chance should a new series come up. none the less i thonk the coffins done been nailed.
Just go watch Ent season 4, it's got some damn good episodes, and - while it was already dead - it goes out kicking [save for the final episode which was reigned by the previous guys, and as such it was so beyond trash it's not funny]. Anyway, it's definitely a good idea for it to just take a few years off and consolidate.
-
Hm...
I watched Star Treck very often, but there was always something, that I don't like.
Humans were just to nice, to friendly, to morally. :)
I mean Babylon 5 shows Humans, like they really are: EVIL. Just look at President Clark or Bester. :D *cough*
-
one thing that can save startrek is to drop the libral hippie nonesence.
Bear in mind that in the Trek universe there is a vastly different set of political concerns to work with too: There is no poverty, no hunger. Take away the desperate fight for everyday survival and human beings would be capable of forming a very different society than we have today. Imagine what you would do with your life if you didn't need to earn money to survive; Think of the intellectual or athletic pursuits you could embark upon. Now consider that you could do any of those things and combine them with bettering the rest of humanity in the process. You see where I'm going? Recent finding suggest that human beings are indeed naturally kind to each other (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4766490.stm) - all they need is the chance.
As for what political differences do exist: We never explored the political side of the Federation Council, save The Undiscovered Country, and DS9: Home Front/Paradise Lose.
Of course, Enterprise did deal with the formation of the Federation and the political opposition to it, but that was set in a period when Earth wasn't quite "paradise" yet.
-
Section 31
-
Bear in mind that in the Trek universe there is a vastly different set of political concerns to work with too: There is no poverty, no hunger. Take away the desperate fight for everyday survival and human beings would be capable of forming a very different society than we have today. Imagine what you would do with your life if you didn't need to earn money to survive; Think of the intellectual or athletic pursuits you could embark upon. Now consider that you could do any of those things and combine them with bettering the rest of humanity in the process. You see where I'm going?
TOS had all that crap and they still went around kicking people's asses and giving weapons to monkeys.
Recent finding suggest that human beings are indeed naturally kind to each other (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4766490.stm) - all they need is the chance.
There's nothing natural about it. They get 18 months of their mother being nice to them and just mimic the behaviour.
Personally, I would like to see something big happen in the Star Trek universe. Like Vulcan and the Vulcan people being decimated by a Romulan attack or something and being reduced to a few thousand survivors - then have them secede from the Federation and head off into the unknown to 'find their own path'.
They're one of the four foundations of the Federation (Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites), and they've spent the last 300 years acting as a stabilising influence on Humanity. They've kept the Klingons from annihilating Earth, helped overcome the Xindi Threat, maintained covert diplomatic ties with the Romulan dissidents and generally introduced the concept of pacifistic idealism to the Federation as a whole. Mankind has always been the Hand of Starfleet and the Federation, making the advances, leading the charge, forging new ties to alien worlds - but the Vulcans have always been there to act as their conscience and to inject some cold, hard logic into the mix.
It'd just be cool to see them get *****slapped, see Humanity act all responsible and ****, then decide that they were no longer needed to temper the wildfires of Federation optimism and Human drive.
The Vulcans have always known that Mankind would eventually surpass them, and they've basically stuck with the Federation to keep an eye on Humanity - to make sure they don't do anything stupid with their power.
I think it's about time they stepped aside. And it'd be a helluva significant moment in Star Trek history.
-
Hm...
I watched Star Treck very often, but there was always something, that I don't like.
Humans were just to nice, to friendly, to morally. :)
I mean Babylon 5 shows Humans, like they really are: EVIL. Just look at President Clark or Bester. :D *cough*
Even in B5 we had the knights in shining armor: Sinclair, Sheridan, Marcus, Ivanova, hell even Garibaldi...
You could even argue that both Londo and G'Kar were too, though they both did some dumb things in the name of what was best for their people.
-
Maybe that's why I liked Babylon 5 more, it just had more......emotion.
Though I never watched Star Trek enough to judge it properly...perhaps, just perhaps, I will give it a little chance in the future.
-
Mirror Universe Story, where everyone is evil.
We know that they gained tech from the future and Hoshi became emperess. (Enterprise)
We know that Kirk got his tech and rose through the ranks. (ToS)
LARGE GAP!!!! < This story needs telling, huge space battles, seeing earth get pwned, watching bad decisions by a command that would rather backstab the next up and comming captain than help win a war they're losing so they waste resources in no win scenarios for that captain which ultimately leads to the destruction of the empire, etc.>
Then way in the future we know that the terran empire was wiped out by the klingons and other races. (DS9)
-
the borg were like the shivans of star trek. it took voyager to screw that up. then they have to finish them off. thats sick. those people who came up with that story need to be shot.
-
Ok, now for my opinion; I think whatever new direction Star Trek takes, it should COMPLETELY avoid Star Trek politics, because they're mostly contrived and follow an outdated policy. Give the people a coherent storyline, which is what everyone wants these days in their sci fi adventures: a big space opera plot that they can follow; the adventure of the week format is a little long in the tooth, and provides no area for character development. The biggest problem with Star Trek right now is that A) It's obsessed with technobabble, B) the starships don't feel like starships, and C) everything's too perfect.
How to fix:
A) STOP TALKING ABOUT IT. Technology isn't magic, it has limits. Star Trek writers should introduce a "tech cap" where they can't "modify the dylithium crystal matrix" to solve every problem that comes around. Giving people a limit to what they can do reintroduces tension. In TNG, that limit wasn't there, so you KNEW that they'd solve the problem with just a couple engine core tweaks.
B) Give us back bunks and heroic captains and laser battles. The thing that really made me feel that "wow...this isn't a starship, it's a pleasure liner with guns" was how the GUEST ROOMS in TNG were these giant three room apartments. I know it's the whole "city in space" idea, but you don't give every two crewmen a three room apartment. In TOS they slept in bunk beds in massive crew quarters, with bulkheads right next to them. You went "that's a starship, look, I can see the metal plating" not "thats a room with a view at downtown Chicago". I also want Captains that don't study Shakespear and learn seven different langauges in their spare time; I just don't relate to that. I know the whole "working to better themselves" mentality is at work in Picard's character, but please; we can't relate to wanting to study twenty times a day, or working without pay. Give us a captain that's heroic, but also human, where we can go "I want to be him". Also, give us space battles! I mean, they're starships! With guns! Blow something up for chrissakes!
C) Just STAY AWAY FROM THE ISSUE. Don't talk about it; introduce contradictions into it. My favorite new idea for a series is a Black Sheep type ship of the line, that's crewed with misfits and the like; it stays away from the "perfect universe" of usual Trek, but still GIVES us Trek.
Now, a lot of what I said may sound like TNG bashing; don't get me wrong, I really do like the ships and crews. I'm a TOS fanboy to be sure, but that's also because I like that TOS is much more real and down to Earth. They're both great series, it's just that TNG is what most people are basing their shows/games/whatever off of these days, so that's what I pick on most.
-
All my suggestions boil down to scrapping Trek and making something more like the newer breeds of sci-fi (Farscape, Firefly), so I have little to contribute.
-
the borg were like the shivans of star trek. it took voyager to screw that up. then they have to finish them off. thats sick. those people who came up with that story need to be shot.
I'm sure they could find a way around that. In First Contact, a borg queen is killed. They do it again in Voyager. Sure they blow up the main uni-complex or whatever, but I'm sure there's a couple more out there (they could just say so anyway). What with 6 trans-warp hubs and whatnot. Either that, or the borg'll use some time travel thing. Whatever.
What pisses me off is that the borg were the "oh crap we're effed" species (TNG). When Q sent the Enterprise-D out there, and when Captain Picard was assimilated, those were some serious "oh eff" moments. I like that. Makes the Federation seem not quite so invincible. Voyager kinda ruined that. And then, "We'll just replace the borg with some other species (8472)." Bleh.
Give us a captain that's heroic, but also human, where we can go "I want to be him".
Captain Picard's character is the most noble, honorable, wise, intelligent, (all heroic qualities) yet also human (falls in love, gives it up, wants revenge against the borg, and so on...) person I could ever know. Personally, I wouldn't mind being him (save for being old :p ).
-
I agree. Plus, The Next Generation had "The Inner Light", which I think was one of the best pieces of writing for sci-fi television ever done.
-
I really think star trek should just be considered over. It's not that I have any dislike of the universe, its that it seems like with Voyager and Enterprise, people are focusing on making the story of star trek work over and over, and then it gets old and wooden. I really think Sci Fi is best when the creators are dealing with original content. You can pull sci fi off the shelf from different periods in history and see which major influences were affecting the creators, which issues appealed to the masses. I think keeping a universe around causes it to become obviously dated and tired.
Star trek doesn't have a lot of room to go forward into totally new territory. Everything is so defined in the technobabble books and piles of show references that trying to throw in new sci fi ideas will meet resistance and jiggawattage weapon specification geek fights. I think its high time that star trek went the way of the old flash gorden shows. Something that we can still watch and enjoy, but something that should not be forced to continue when the next great generation of sci-fi could be under creation instead.
-
I agree. Plus, The Next Generation had "The Inner Light", which I think was one of the best pieces of writing for sci-fi television ever done.
WHEN!? I've played that bloody piece in an Orchestra a few times, thouht it was fantastic, but i've never heard it on any TNG episode i've ever seen! How!? When!? Where!? What!? WHO!!??
-
You know, I was a big fan of TNG... but... I can't escape this niggling feeling that I've seen enough of the Star Trek universe. After a bazillion series (that's right, I'm so apathetic I can't even be bothered to count them) I think they must have pretty much covered every single angle imaginable. A book can only have so many pages. No need to tag on any more chapters.
-
They need a proper war.
The Dominion War was cool and all, but it dealt with the horrors of war in a very PG-13 kinda way. They should make a more realistic series - kinda like 24 where anyone can die at any moment - with new people getting shipped in to replace the dead, instead of having invincible characters.
The single best thing DS9 ever did was The Second Battle of Chintoka. The fleet got whupped, the Defiant got blown to pieces and the entire Alliance instantly became little more than cannon fodder.
-
[q]I also want Captains that don't study Shakespear and learn seven different langauges in their spare time; I just don't relate to that. I know the whole "working to better themselves" mentality is at work in Picard's character, but please; we can't relate to wanting to study twenty times a day, or working without pay.[/q]
Ah, so you want to dumb it down for those that lack the ability to see beyond their own persona?
-
Uh, no, I want realistic characters. He's a starship captain, not a playwrite. Sure, he falls in love and has issues, but in reality, none of them are permanent. They are all conveniently solved at the end of the episode, and almost never reappear again, thanks to the "Make everything happy" button at the end of every episode. I mean, he got taken over by the freaking BORG and in the next episode he's happily chugging away.
-
I am a fourth year computing science student at university now, does that mean I can't have other interests that I am passionate about and have great knowledge of? What's the difference?
Damn your lightening fast editing skills.
-
I think Picard was the model of Stafleet leadership because he was so well-rounded intellectually. It made me trust him more because I knew he wasn't just some grunt who thought that his moral principles were all he needed to brave the universe. He knew his way around the cultures of his species. Besides, anti-intellectualism ****ing pisses me off.
EDIT: Sorry, Mefustae, I forgot about your question. "The Inner Light" is TNG Season 5, Episode 25.
-
IMHO they need to sit on it until society is ready for it again.
Star Trek is about an ideological near-utopian future that's mostlye about exploring.
This worked back in the day, but unfortunately, all most people are interested in these days is fighting, guns, space battles and big explosions.
i.e. mindless eyecandy.
There is no way classic Trek could survive in such an environment. Now, they could try and make it more 'dark and gritty', which seems to be the trendy thing to do seeing as this seems to be what EVERYBODY seems to try to do, but that'd just make existing hardcore trekkies/ers boycott it. It just wouldn't fit with what Star Trek is all about and would suck.
At current times, something from the MechWarrior or Warhammer 40k universes would probably work better - Both are pretty much about heroic angsty psycho killing machines who do nothing but fight and blow **** up all the time, but with enough backstory/plot/flavour-text that they can have a veneer of credibility ;)
-
This worked back in the day, but unfortunately, all most people are interested in these days is fighting, guns, space battles and big explosions.
i.e. mindless eyecandy.
i.e. interesting conflict.
The problem with utopias is that they're so bloody boring. A lack of poverty, ignorance, hatred etc. leads to a lack of the tension that is necessary to drive many kinds of stories. You're stuck with exploration as a source for stories, which is fine - so long as you can keep coming up with fresh ideas. But eventually you run stale and because everything's so perfect back home there's no more material.
That's part of the problem. The other part is that utopian societies produce utopian people, and utopian people are also very boring. Again, you immediately prevent yourself from tapping into the rich seam of storytelling that is internal anguish and interpersonal strife, because everyone is enlightened and the very milk of human kindness. Furthermore, when your heroes perform heroic acts, it becomes meaningless because they're *always* heroic, and they *always* succeed, and you're basically just watching them go through the motions. It means much more and creates more of an impact, has a greater emotional effect, when the hero is actually sometimes a bit of a tosser and not all that good with the brain smarts and maybe is jealous of his best mate who doesn't really like him... when the hero, in spite of all this, goes on to save the day against all odds.
Would Star Wars have worked so well as a story if Luke had always been a badass Jedi in control of himself and if Han Solo had worn his heart of gold on his sleeve? I say no. But hey, whatever.
-
Han Solo doesn't have a heart of gold. He just wanted to boink Leia because he thought she was rich.
-
Han Solo doesn't have a heart of gold. He just wanted to boink Leia because he thought she was rich.
Didn't we all?
-
I say let RDM loose in the Trek universe (and I do mean, let him loose, with the kind of freedom he has with BSG) after BSG runs its course (oh lords of Kobol, may it never happen!). :p
-
Or let JMS do it now.
-
Uh, no, I want realistic characters. He's a starship captain, not a playwrite. Sure, he falls in love and has issues, but in reality, none of them are permanent. They are all conveniently solved at the end of the episode, and almost never reappear again, thanks to the "Make everything happy" button at the end of every episode. I mean, he got taken over by the freaking BORG and in the next episode he's happily chugging away.
And then there's the episode when he returns to Earth and admits how bad he feels because he caused so many deaths
Or let JMS do it now.
Actually: http://www.jmsnews.com/thread.aspx?id=_UPN%20Cancels%20Enterprise!
But unfortunately it didn't happen.
-
I was aware of that and his involvment in DS9. Which is why I suggested that they should have just turned it over to him and spit roast B & B.
-
I agree. Plus, The Next Generation had "The Inner Light", which I think was one of the best pieces of writing for sci-fi television ever done.
That episode caught me completely off guard. I practially cried at the end of it.
-
And then there's the episode when he returns to Earth and admits how bad he feels because he caused so many deaths
One episode where it was mentioned. Then the "make happy" button came along and it was promptly dismissed.
-
One episode where it was mentioned. Then the "make happy" button came along and it was promptly dismissed.
Well, there is the opening few minutes of 'First Contact', which suggested that he went away from his assimilation with [at the very least] post-traumatic stress syndrome.
-
Was 'The Inner Light' the one with the Flute thing?
-
Yep, that was it. I believe it won a Hugo.
-
yea i sorta like the way picard went psycho in first contact. they shoulda done that in the series in the episodes after tbobw. really i liked the way tng sorta kept the borg in a mysterious light. iirc there were only 4 episodes that delt with the borg (6 if you count the 2 parters). ds9 sorta left the borg alone with the exception of the pilot episode. voyager butchered the borg as a spiecies. the episode of enterprise featuring the borg seemed much more appropriate as it was a continuation from the first contact plot in a way. the borg were always my favorite spicies. space commies!
-
And then there's the episode when he returns to Earth and admits how bad he feels because he caused so many deaths
One episode where it was mentioned. Then the "make happy" button came along and it was promptly dismissed.
Yes, you have a point. It's because TNG's episodes were standalone. Those were different times, before B5 and before BSG. Enterprise had an arc, because that's what's popular now.
I was aware of that and his involvment in DS9. Which is why I suggested that they should have just turned it over to him and spit roast B & B.
jms offered B5 to Paramount as well and they refused. However, they received the series bible. He was never involved in DS9, DS9 borrowed some ideas from B5.
-
Was 'The Inner Light' the one with the Flute thing?
so what happened then ?
-
It was an awesome episode, I think it was the only one that was Directed by Patrick Stewart as well, I'd love to see him get more involved in Directing if that is the kind of stuff he's capable of producing.
It's sort of a long story, about Picard being dragged back in time to a civilisation that died out centuries ago, and living his life with them, learning their ways and their customs and, eventually, discovering that they were doomed. You really need to watch it to get the full impact though, it was probably one of the most original and moving episodes. And no-ones clothes fell off ;)
-
I remember that actually, now that you mention it. Had a daughter, IIRC ?
-
http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TNG/episode/68556.html
-
ah yes that was indeed a good episode. maybe i should consider rewatching tng, as i hadnt watched it sence grade school, maybe i can get more out of it by watching it again as an adult.
-
One episode where it was mentioned. Then the "make happy" button came along and it was promptly dismissed.
Well, after that one episode, the amount of time to the next episode could be more than just a few days or a week. *shrugs* And yeah, someone mentioned how TNG eps were standalones, save for the 2-parters. I don't fault it for doing what the rest of TV was doing at the time. I guess I'm a lil biased too, since it has always been my favorite series (I grew up on it! ;) ).
ah yes that was indeed a good episode. maybe i should consider rewatching tng, as i hadnt watched it sence grade school, maybe i can get more out of it by watching it again as an adult.
I would imagine so. I've rewatched a good amount and really enjoyed it. :yes:
-
the borg were like the shivans of star trek. it took voyager to screw that up. then they have to finish them off. thats sick. those people who came up with that story need to be shot.
I'm not sure wether or not the borg were totally destroyed. I don't think they were. Remember that in Armada I Picard destroys a giant volume of borg space with the omega molecule (and armada is canon afaik), yet the borg survived.
Considering the size of the borg empire I don't think janeway managed to wipe 'em out.
-
I'm not sure wether or not the borg were totally destroyed. I don't think they were. Remember that in Armada I Picard destroys a giant volume of borg space with the omega molecule (and armada is canon afaik), yet the borg survived.
Considering the size of the borg empire I don't think janeway managed to wipe 'em out.
Of course she didn't wipe them out. The point is that the technology the final Voyager introduced - ablative armour, transphasic torpedoes - effectively nullified the Borg as a threat, as well as dealing a good bit of damage to the Borg itself when Unimatrix One or whatever was destroyed. Not to mention the fact that Voyager depicted the Borg as absolute pussies, a f***ing 180 from the unstoppable killing machines that could brush a fleet aside with a single ship from The Best of Both Worlds.
The Borg haven't been destroyed, but the threat from the Borg have. They are now a f***ing joke.
-
The worst thing about Voyager wasn't that they kept screwing the Borg, it was that they screwed them in ways that were totally contrary to the nature of the Borg.
In TNG they'd just walk up and take the first shot - let it tear them to pieces purely so they could see how it damaged their drones/ships, then they'd adapt instantly and **** you in the ass with a hyper-spanner.
Even mass-assimilation was a cop-out. They shoulda just left them as breed-when-need aliens, churning out huge batches of cyber-babies to recrew their ships - as that kept the organic side of the Borg less like a 'poor alien slave' and more like a mobile repair unit.
And assimilation of an entire species is so inefficient that it's completely pointless. Fair enough, assimilate a few military leaders and scientist who held unique information of value, but the knowledge of an entire race would consist overwhelmingly of useless trivia and the same information repeated over and over with varying opinions.
Janeway kept coming up with fancy ways to defeat the Borg that apparently no-one from the tens of thousands of other races the Borg had assimilated had ever thought of. Even assimilation tubules were bull****. Half the scariness of the Borg was being abducted against your will and cut to pieces. According to Voyager, you got some tubes in your neck, hurt for a few seconds, then went blank and compliant.
-
According to Voyager, you got some tubes in your neck, hurt for a few seconds, then went blank and compliant.
[Geek]Actually, that was established in First Contact *snort*[/Geek]
-
Half the scariness of the Borg was being abducted against your will and cut to pieces. According to Voyager, you got some tubes in your neck, hurt for a few seconds, then went blank and compliant.
They still cut you to pieces after you've been assimilated. Except if you're an important character, like Picard, Janeway, Torres or Tuvok.
-
iirc they still cut picard up fairly well.
the borg didnt really start to go bad until after first contact. fc kinda showed an aspect of them previously unseen, however i dont feel that they screwed em up that much. maybe the whole drone-queen relation shoulda been left out. the borg queen was merly a plot device. you had to have a personified villan for storytelling purposes. a depersonified villan would have been hard to accept for most. i liked the older concept of space commies better. seeing as communisim fell, i guess they tried to make the borg less like that and more like something else. none the less who were voyagers writers to butcher one of my favorite spicies.
-
I'm surorised Voyager got that far. It was painfully cheesy, most of the time.
-
Kinda weird how the Borg threat is nullified, Species 8472 can't do anything against nano-probe torpedoes, the Son'a (sp?) and Baku situation is resolved (sorta), so who/what can stand against the Federation? Oh yeah, the Remans. Wait.. what?
-
Like I said, the only races that present even a moderate threat to the Klingon/Federation Alliance are the Romulans (who now have the Remans and Section 31 to worry about), the Breen (who hated surrender, so will probably start some ****) and maybe the Tholians.
Everyone else was either a part of the Dominion; Allied with Earth; Or too small to pose a threat to the Federation-Klingon Alliance, even in its weakened state.
I think they should just ally the Breen with the Remans and have another big war.
-
Also, species 8472 now have the plans to those Nano-Torps, thanks to their encounter with the Voyager crew on a planet they had set up to train spies. Never quite figured out Janeways reasoning there....
-
They probably decided that, like the Borg, Species 8472 actually had some potential and needed to be pussified through diplomacy.
Which was completely pointless, given that the Sphere Builders were essentially 8472 with future-casting technology.
-
I dunno, it just kinda threw me because I would think the Borg would own someone like the Remans, but the Borg threat is utterly destroyed, and now the Remans are the new BAs, what with the display of the Schimitar (sp?) in ST:N but they certainly weren't utterly destroyed. *shrugs* I don't even know if I'm making any sense anymore, but I guess that means I'm about on the level of B&B then.
-
I think the Remans are probably going to get stamped on pretty damn hard by the Romulans after the Scimitar incident. They only had one, and it was built in secret. I personally think the Remans are going to get sent back to planet PlotDevice where they came from. ;)
As was mentioned in a website somewhere, the Remans were sensitive to bright light, and yet the Federation seemed to be suffering from a galaxy-wide light-bulb shortage.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Nemesis/Pictorial.html
-
Funny, but goddamn he's a Star Wars fanboy. Check his review of Episode 3 :p
But yea, I think what they need to do is make the Federation less unstoppable. It's a perfect society that nothing in the galaxy can combat.
-
Heh, yeah, not surprising from StarDestroyer.net, but it still makes me giggle ;)
I agree, I think that's why DS9 had a certain appeal to me, it showed the Federation as something more than the Smurfs of the Future, there was a gritty side of the Federation that only reared in that series, where there were corrupt delegates and secret groups with Prime Directive breaking agendas etc. More importantly, people did things wrong, much like Bashir's brethren etc. It felt more human than the happy-smiley land created for most of the other series.
-
Funny, but goddamn he's a Star Wars fanboy. Check his review of Episode 3 :p
But yea, I think what they need to do is make the Federation less unstoppable. It's a perfect society that nothing in the galaxy can combat.
The Federation was getting it's ass handed to it when the Dominion War started. Kind of too bad that it won in a way.
-
Not really.
It only won the war through completely illegal and immoral means.
They sacrificed the Bajoran sector to make a strike against Dominion shipyards, vapourised some more shipyards and all the civillian contractors aboard, supported a terrorist movement on Cardassia, attempted to commit genocide, had Worf kill Gowron (which is technically assasination), falsified evidence to trick the Romulans into the war....
-
They probably decided that, like the Borg, Species 8472 actually had some potential and needed to be pussified through diplomacy.
Which was completely pointless, given that the Sphere Builders were essentially 8472 with future-casting technology.
The Sphere Builders were probably one of the better Trek villain ideas in a while, but they weren't used right.
First off, they shouldn't have been from another dimension just effectively 'psychohistory' users. For that matter time travelers weren't needed either.
The Builders would have meddled with races like the Klingons, Romulans, etc. which then tied into discovering the whole "hrmm why are there these ancient cloaked sphere things that the major races are fighting over to steal tech from?" to "hrmm... why are they now becoming active and aiding these strange attacks on our shipping lanes that are intending to break apart the alliances we're forming?"
The sort of things where though they get thwarted, the dead hand of their acts leads to the Earth-Romulan War, etc.
-
i guess i have to patiently wait for *insert name of cable network to buy rights to enterprise* to buy the show to figure out what all this sphere nonsence is about, and to look at the more recent atrocities that make trek suck. i remember back to an st:tmp where kirk or whoever is telling that vger chick acout all the pictures of the old enterprises and guess which one was missing from the wall. enterprise woulda been better if they were still using gatling guns as a primary means of ship defence :D
-
Meh, I honestly don't have the answer for Trek's salvation, if there is one. I can honestly say that I've enjoyed much (not all, mind you) of what the Trek universe has had to offer, and I hope that someday in the future it offers more I can enjoy.
-
Not really.
It only won the war through completely illegal and immoral means.
They sacrificed the Bajoran sector to make a strike against Dominion shipyards, vapourised some more shipyards and all the civillian contractors aboard, supported a terrorist movement on Cardassia, attempted to commit genocide, had Worf kill Gowron (which is technically assasination), falsified evidence to trick the Romulans into the war....
gotta love a little bit of skullduggery, i'm sure roddenbery wouldn't approve, tho
-
All I know is that I loved the actors in Enterprise, but hated the show! Only when it was on it's last legs and they switched in manny Coto (and maybe even before that with the eugencs stuff) did it even become interesting and good stories.
Everything related to the Xindi stuff was alternate Universe crap! The way that should have been handled was Daniel's and Archer together watching time "FIX Itself"...
Archer - "What's happening?"
Daniels - "Time is now as it should be, or will be in a few moments... I wanted to say thank you. I am very sorry we will never have met."
Episode ends just after the last one before the Xindi stuff started (no recrods or memories exist of those two seasons)... Enterprise now continues with two more NEW seasons that fill that time...
What they need to do is sit down and write some F-ign GOOD SCRIPTS (maybe for 5 years) and take their time, not rush right out and say "We're gonna bring a ST show back in 2-3 years" Why? Cause it will be more crap that is not thought provoking and just lowers fan's expectations. Face it Enterprise practically killed Trek for what I percieved as the majority of the fanbase. (how dare they do this to our Federation and Time-line).
They screwed up so badly you can never come back to Enterprise now. A GOLDEN oportunity would have been the Earth Romulan war right from day 1 of season 2-3... Most of the Non-Xindi storylines were pretty good however...
-
They coulda took the easy route and just focused on the post-War reconstruction of the Federation Alliance. Even without anything big happening, that'd've been quite interesting.
-
I always thought what i saw of Enterprise was an ood-ball. I mean, why did they move away from the established title sequence ?