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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Corsair on August 15, 2006, 09:38:14 pm

Title: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Corsair on August 15, 2006, 09:38:14 pm: hey everyone
so I'm getting ready to head off to college in a few weeks and I'm planning on getting a new laptop because my current one is being held together with packing tape at the moment. the school is encouraging us to buy through their tech department and I'm inclined to do so because it looks like I'll be getting a much better deal than if I go outside what with all the software I'm being offered and whatnot but this makes for a big choice: do I go Mac or stick with Windows?

It's either a MacBook Pro (OS X) or a Dell Latitude D820 (with XP but the school is offering a free upgrade to Vista as soon as it comes out). The core stats are all basically the same, so I'm wondering, what do people think? I'm especially interested to hear from anybody who has a MacBook Pro because I don't really know much about the system.

Thanks you guys!
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: neoterran on August 15, 2006, 10:00:34 pm: you can run both operating systems on a MacBook and your battery won't go up in flames either...
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Mefustae on August 15, 2006, 10:07:46 pm: Indeed. Dell laptops have a tendancy to go Towering Inferno on you when you least expect it.

Go for the Mac. :yes:
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Dark Hunter on August 15, 2006, 10:08:17 pm: Well, Macs are supposed to be more user-friendly, as well as having slightly better software, but Windows is compatible with practically everything, while Mac isn't so much.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Kosh on August 15, 2006, 10:09:04 pm: The problem with OSX is that there still aren't too many programs that can run on it. OSX is a great OS, but it has major compatibility issues.....
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: neoterran on August 15, 2006, 10:26:24 pm: Quote from: Dark Hunter on August 15, 2006, 10:08:17 pm
Well, Macs are supposed to be more user-friendly, as well as having slightly better software, but Windows is compatible with practically everything, while Mac isn't so much.

This is a non issue these days. Macs are now using PC hardware. With Apple's boot camp software, you can run both operating systems (XP/Vista and OS X) and switch between whichever one you need to use. Problem Solved.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: IceFire on August 15, 2006, 10:47:25 pm: Here's my take on the situation.

Dell Latitude laptops are generally considered to be cheap, mass produced, bits of plastic and metling batteries. They've had some pretty massive recalls of some of their laptop battery line because of potential fire hazards. Dell's support these days generally sucks and I'm not sure on what the warranty is but its probably 1 year. If its less than that you shouldn't even look at it. Windows is Windows...can't really go too wrong with a PC based laptop in that regard as we're all in the same boat there.

MacBook's have a similarly marked past as some of the Dells. The MacBook in its current iteration is new...its the "Mark 1" MacBook. The new "Mark 2" is due out in October or November. These are probably going to be alot better than the current iteration which has had a share of manufacturing defects including some defective plastic casings (that were discoloring and possibly warping) and a heating duct that wasn't opened (plastic in the way) during final packaging so some MacBooks were overheating. Its not a fantastic history in itself...that said...Apple has rectified all of these issues and any MacBook you buy right now is likely to be new enough to have avoided all of these problems. MacOS doesn't run every bit of software but its a fine operating system...its very mature now and works extremely well. You will not get alot of problems with the current edition. Its not perfect, it still hangs and crashes now and again if you do something silly with it, it has its share of security concerns, but compared to Windows its like a solid rock being compared to swiss cheese. If your mission in life with the laptop are things like e-mail, web browsing, music listening, some light photo manipulation or organization, and all of that sort of thing then MacBook will do it right out of the box. More pro stuff like Macromedia and Adobe suites are all cross platform and work exactly the same on MacOS as they do with Windows. Compatibility between Windows and MacOS is a non issue these days as well. Also...because of BootCamp...you can dual boot Windows and MacOS if you need a Windows critical piece of software to work. Apparently most games work without a second thought as well...so its not a bad setup.

I'd suggest, and I'm not sure if its on your radar, to look at another PC laptop maker instead of Dell. Dell is what everyone goes to...but its garbage cheap stuff. Didn't used to be...but it is now. They are the Walmart of computer companies. I would STRONGLY suggest you compare the MacBook against comperable models from LG and Fujitsu. They aren't well known for laptops but their laptop models are amongst the best on the market from everything from reliability to fit and finish. They are Windows XP based...nearly all are using Intel Core so you're comparing straight against the MacBooks Intel Core and they are just as affordable without the recall issues. LG and Fujitsu have a good track record for reliability so far...they are new to the market and they have to be good...so it works in your benefit.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Ransom on August 15, 2006, 11:24:43 pm: Get the Mac. If they have around the same specs, there's no advantage to getting the Windows laptop -- as others have said, you can just use Boot Camp to run Windows on the Mac for any situation you need it, whereas you can't run Mac on a Windows laptop. Say what you like about OS X, it's far more stable than XP and much more reliable for work.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Deepblue on August 16, 2006, 12:09:20 am: Actually the battery problem isn't isolated to Dells. MacBooks had the same problem.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Mefustae on August 16, 2006, 12:47:31 am: Quote from: Deepblue on August 16, 2006, 12:09:20 am
Actually the battery problem isn't isolated to Dells. MacBooks had the same problem.
Oh-ho, is that so? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Kosh on August 16, 2006, 02:50:27 am: Quote from: Mefustae on August 16, 2006, 12:47:31 am
Quote from: Deepblue on August 16, 2006, 12:09:20 am
Actually the battery problem isn't isolated to Dells. MacBooks had the same problem.
Oh-ho, is that so? :rolleyes:

Didn't someone post a newscast that showed pictures of one going up in flames?
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: SadisticSid on August 16, 2006, 03:49:40 am: Well, the number of stories of Dell laptops exploding is more worrying than the odd Macbook one. Statistically speaking you're probably more likely to get struck by lightning, anyway.

I'd go for the Macbook myself, if they're the same price and spec. Just don't become one of these Mac-loving yuppie snobs, please. :p
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Kosh on August 16, 2006, 05:53:22 am: Btw, what university are you going to?

Sooner or later macs will get their turn, unless someone gets a replacement for lithium ion batteries.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: pecenipicek on August 16, 2006, 07:50:12 am: i'm voting for the mac, but be carefull about holding it in your lap, thats a dangerous thing to do with or without the battery... the ****er is veeeery warm.

i learned it the hard way when i took friends macbook and put it in my lap... yowch!
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 16, 2006, 08:10:55 am: Oh sweet peppers............................

Why open up this can of worms?

For the record IBM Compatible for the win, Why i hear you say?

Spoiler:
DOS SHELL from Dos 4.2............................dunno why but i could use that all day long. (pre win3.1)
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Kazan on August 16, 2006, 08:16:51 am: screw mac... their new OS is atleast fairly decent and technical superior to windows - but I hate their total fascism about hardware - proprietarization is bull****, don't buy from any company that engages in it.

plus macs are unreasonably more expensive
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Kosh on August 16, 2006, 09:31:24 am: Quote from: Kazan on August 16, 2006, 08:16:51 am
screw mac... their new OS is atleast fairly decent and technical superior to windows - but I hate their total fascism about hardware - proprietarization is bull****, don't buy from any company that engages in it.

plus macs are unreasonably more expensive

All major OEMs use proprietary designs. When it comes to laptops there is simply no avoiding it.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Kazan on August 16, 2006, 10:41:01 am: except for the entire mac overcharging for the equipment simply because they're "a name brand"
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: neoterran on August 16, 2006, 10:42:45 am: Vista goes a long way towards rectifying Windows major problems. And that is out at the end of October, unless Microsoft delays it again. Considering the progress they've made since beta 2, i have a feeling it'll make the date.

As far as XP being less stable than Mac OS, i don't agree. As long as you aren't overclocking and you bought reputable hardware, windows is rock solid stable as well. Not to mention vastly more programs, almost every pro application that Macs have available, and some that they don't. Oh, yeah and games. Hey, i'm for open source as much as the next guy, but i also like playing stuff like Dark Messiah of Might and Magic... not gonna happen on a Mac.

Vista is technologically on par with, or superior to, Mac OS Tiger. That's not to say OS X isn't a cool operating system. It is. However, my personal dislike for Apple precludes me from wanting to use it. If Apple licensed their operating system out instead of artificially tying it to their expensive proprietary platforms, (and then acting like they're better than MS) I'd feel alot better about using it.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: CP5670 on August 16, 2006, 11:00:57 am: I would give a slight edge to the Dell. They are both strictly bottom tier in terms of construction quality, but Dell typically offers longer warranties from what I've seen (may vary in your case though) and should use more standarized, upgradable components, at least compared to Apple. Although it really depends on how much you like OS X.

Quote
As far as XP being less stable than Mac OS, i don't agree. As long as you aren't overclocking and you bought reputable hardware, windows is rock solid stable as well. Not to mention vastly more programs, almost every pro application that Macs have available, and some that they don't.

Yeah, stability problems are rarely related to the OS these days and have more to do with specific programs misbehaving and hardware faults. (although you can overclock just fine if you do it right)
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Ransom on August 16, 2006, 11:08:28 am: Well, that's kind of the problem, isn't it? OS X is designed so a software problem will have to be very serious to crash the system, whereas Windows will frequently require a reboot if software fails.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: neoterran on August 16, 2006, 11:19:32 am: Quote from: Ransom Arceihn on August 16, 2006, 11:08:28 am
Well, that's kind of the problem, isn't it? OS X is designed so a software problem will have to be very serious to crash the system, whereas Windows will frequently require a reboot if software fails.

Fact : 80 percent of BSOD's (Blue Screen of Death) in Windows XP were caused by the graphics card drivers.

In Windows Vista, graphics card drivers were moved from the kernel space to the user space, so if a graphics driver crashes now, it wont' crash the system anymore, it will simply shutdown and auto-restart the graphics display. This is a HUGE improvement. Not to mention Vista has completely new network stack, audio and video subsytems.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Ransom on August 16, 2006, 11:32:43 am: Cool.

I have no doubt Vista will be as much of an improvement as XP was over its predecessors, but my point here is that the Mac laptop can run both. Ignoring which OS is better for a moment, between the choice of a Dell and a Mac (assuming higher quality Windows laptops are out of the question,) I really can't see any reason to get the Dell.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: vyper on August 16, 2006, 11:41:32 am: Like the spoof advert said:

Macs: What you use to edit the movie of your snowboarding holiday on.
PCs: What you use to make the money to go on said holiday.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Ferret on August 16, 2006, 12:00:14 pm: Please don't get a Dell laptop. They're awful for everything. I do not have much experience with Macs though. I've always wanted to....
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: pecenipicek on August 16, 2006, 12:08:13 pm: is it just me or are macbooks rather cheap, around $1k? a bit more?

[edit] nevermind, its a bit more like $4.5k :lol:

still its veeery nice :)
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Mars on August 16, 2006, 12:34:38 pm: Go Alienware....

or somthing, just not a Dell, and IMHO don't go with an iBook either, Apple computers limit your flexibility with other OS's and if you want to run Windoze, you still need to pay for it, whereas if you go w/ a PC, it's probably included
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: neoterran on August 16, 2006, 03:41:32 pm: Dell owns Alienware, I hope you know :D
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Kazan on August 16, 2006, 04:16:38 pm: Quote from: neoterran on August 16, 2006, 11:19:32 am
In Windows Vista, graphics card drivers were moved from the kernel space to the user space, so if a graphics driver crashes now, it wont' crash the system anymore, it will simply shutdown and auto-restart the graphics display. This is a HUGE improvement. Not to mention Vista has completely new network stack, audio and video subsytems.

so you mean it behaves as Xwindows has since..... it was created 22 years ago?
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: IceFire on August 16, 2006, 04:45:58 pm: Quote from: Kazan on August 16, 2006, 10:41:01 am
except for the entire mac overcharging for the equipment simply because they're "a name brand"
I do dislike the propritary stuff...drives me nuts...but you can't get off calling Mac's overpriced these days Kazan. They are the same if not better priced than Dells and HPs. Compare feature for feature and the Apples actually do quite well...not like before.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: neoterran on August 16, 2006, 05:04:02 pm: Quote from: Kazan on August 16, 2006, 04:16:38 pm
Quote from: neoterran on August 16, 2006, 11:19:32 am
In Windows Vista, graphics card drivers were moved from the kernel space to the user space, so if a graphics driver crashes now, it wont' crash the system anymore, it will simply shutdown and auto-restart the graphics display. This is a HUGE improvement. Not to mention Vista has completely new network stack, audio and video subsytems.

so you mean it behaves as Xwindows has since..... it was created 22 years ago?

Yes. Actually the reason it was moved to kernel level to begin with was due to performance issues in Windows NT. But now that Vista has a Desktop Composition Engine that offloads the drawing to the GPU, they're moving it back. It was probably a bad decision anyway, considering that's not the way other modern OS do it.

And I should point out Xwindow system is not anywhere near as complicated as Vista's DCE. Just for the newbies.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Unknown Target on August 16, 2006, 05:12:42 pm: Go for a PC. My friend is an art student and bought a Mac, and she can't stand the thing. All she's doing for the summer is saving up for a new PC notebook. The Mac is slow, can be unreliable, is very uncompatable, and just generally not as good as a PC. That being said, go somewhere other than Dell - their laptops aren't always up to snuff, but that isn't true for ALL PC notebooks (which I can't say for Apple Macs, because they're all made by, well, Apple).
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: vyper on August 16, 2006, 05:22:02 pm: Whats with the Dell bashing lads? We had Dell machines in uni and they've always run great.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Bob-san on August 16, 2006, 05:39:45 pm: Dell bashing? I like dell-bashing!!

Ok so my view on this?

Mac and PC are already too bloated. The best choice is actually Linux. Almost nobody starts a machine in Linux. Most people will start with a Mac or a factory-built PC. Alot of people actually dual-boot their PC with Windows and Linux, by using the GRUB boot manager. That's my personal way to do it, as I run a Ubuntu 5.10 install.

Some advice about a new computer...

Steer clear of a Dell. The problem is quality. Dell, being the largest commercial distributor of computers, has outgrew quality-control. More duds are shipped for personal desktops and laptops, because so many computers are being made. You probably saw some of the "designed for you" and "your fingerprints are all over it" commercials Dell puts out... it proves they are attempting to escape the facts that they ship so many duds and have a lack of customer support (though I admit that 90% of the people rating CS are angry and won't let the CS help them).

So, my recommendation is to order from Gateway for home stuff, Acer, Toshiba, or IBM for more business stuff.

If you know how, make your own computer from parts ordered from whole-sale sites such as Tiger Direct and NewEgg.

If you make your own desktop computer, you should probably choose either a barebone kit (usually case, processor, processor and case fan, motherboard, power supply, and sometimes RAM) or a motherboard-processor (processors are normally OEM) bundle. If you got a M-P bundle, then you need to find a case (preferably ATX), power supply, and fans for your processor, and sometimes your case. Both cases you should probably add more RAM, as 2GB is a good amount to buy. Most of these need a deticated graphics card, so a nVidia GeForce 7600 would be a good mid-range choice (7300 for low-range, 7800 for mid-high-range, 7900 or 7950 for highest-range). Find a good size hard drive and a disc drive (preferably a DVD combo drive or a DVD burner, as they are often equally expensive to a CD drive)

Things to check for your mobo (motherboard) is for DDR2 memory, PCI express x16, and SATA connections. If it has a intergrated video system, then you don't need the Graphics card unless you will be doing 3D stuff like are going to get Vista or play games. It is nearly impossible to get Mac on a custom-built PC.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: neoterran on August 16, 2006, 09:30:25 pm: Here's the problem, you cannot build your own Laptop... which is the main issue.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Polpolion on August 16, 2006, 10:04:20 pm: I am hella partial in favor of windows. Get a Mac and die.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: IceFire on August 16, 2006, 10:50:06 pm: Quote from: vyper on August 16, 2006, 05:22:02 pm
Whats with the Dell bashing lads? We had Dell machines in uni and they've always run great.
My work computer's a Dell...it works fine. Doesn't mean its good. If you're a consumer and you're looking for the best price, performance, features, and reliability Dell should be near the bottom of the list.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Mars on August 17, 2006, 12:58:09 am: Quote from: Bob-san on August 16, 2006, 05:39:45 pm
Dell bashing? I like dell-bashing!!

Ok so my view on this?

Mac and PC are already too bloated. The best choice is actually Linux. Almost nobody starts a machine in Linux. Most people will start with a Mac or a factory-built PC. Alot of people actually dual-boot their PC with Windows and Linux, by using the GRUB boot manager. That's my personal way to do it, as I run a Ubuntu 5.10 install.

Oh yes! :yes:
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Kosh on August 17, 2006, 01:06:39 am: Linux does have something of a compatibility issue at the moment too......
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Mars on August 17, 2006, 02:39:58 am: Howso? :nervous:
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 17, 2006, 03:18:47 am: E-mail from this week at work RE: standard issue Dell Laptops.

Quote
ACTION: Check your laptop battery today
Dell has identified a potential fire hazard with certain batteries in laptop models used by EY. You must check the battery in your laptop immediately so that a replacement can be arranged, if necessary
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Kosh on August 17, 2006, 07:03:45 am: Quote from: Mars on August 17, 2006, 02:39:58 am
Howso? :nervous:

Lots of software doesn't work on it?
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Kazan on August 17, 2006, 08:17:27 am: Quote from: Kosh on August 17, 2006, 07:03:45 am
Lots of software doesn't work on it?

and lots more does

for most of those that don't work in WINE
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Corsair on August 17, 2006, 09:15:38 am: I did look at the battery thing by the way. Yeah, the Dells have been exploding a bunch this summer but Apple recently ordered a huge recall of laptop batteries as well. So it goes.

Well thanks for all the input, guys. I'm gonna go with the Mac... I think it just makes more sense in terms of security and whatnot, I'm not too worried about compatibility, and I really do want to buy through the school because I'll get a good discount and get a lot of software at a great price. Plus it'll be all configured to the university network and whatever. I'm lazy. So sue me. Seriously though, thanks everybody for all their thoughts!
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Deepblue on August 17, 2006, 09:24:58 am: Whatever you do, don't become a machead or Jobs cultist.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: karajorma on August 17, 2006, 10:42:49 am: Yeah cause slavish devotion to a make or model of machine is a really bad thing.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Bob-san on August 17, 2006, 11:37:41 am: The compadibility problems with Linux and your hardware are rapidly solved. Since Linux is open-source, programmers using a large range of machines are able to write additions for the Universe and Multiverse, which will make stuff compadible. It's usually only really outrageous stuff that doesn't work with Linux. Last time i checked, Intel mini-PCMCIA cards didn't work. I think they do now.

Dells are okay for low-range junk, but are just bad overall. Making your own desktop is the best way to get quality and features. There are too few laptop barebone kits... the ones that are available are from no-name wholesalers.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Ferret on August 17, 2006, 11:38:16 am: Quote from: Kosh on August 17, 2006, 07:03:45 am
Quote from: Mars on August 17, 2006, 02:39:58 am
Howso? :nervous:

Lots of software doesn't work on it?
I love it. "At the moment." Like you ever expect Windows software to work on it at all natively in the future? Come on.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Mars on August 17, 2006, 12:23:49 pm: Microsoft can keep their software, I don't like any of their games anyway. Considering how well everything works in WINE (with a few exceptions, but only things that aren't very importiant) I see no reason to go back to Windoze, the biggest problem with Linux is that not all games are natively compatible with it, and that seems to be changing.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Bob-san on August 17, 2006, 04:17:56 pm: For Linux, game porting is a life-saver. I can't wait to play FSO on my Ubuntu install...
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: IceFire on August 17, 2006, 04:54:08 pm: Quote from: Kosh on August 17, 2006, 07:03:45 am
Quote from: Mars on August 17, 2006, 02:39:58 am
Howso? :nervous:

Lots of software doesn't work on it?
Such as? Office? OpenOffice works quite well. I don't even have MS Office on my Windows machine. There's pretty good alternatives to pretty much everything you can find on Windows. I'm not a Linux fanboy...its got its problems and it took me a great deal of reading to make it work properly here (with SUSE) but its got its charms too. Software isn't so much of a problem for the average user. I could switch my mom tommorow to Ubuntu and she'd get along just fine as she had before.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Kazan on August 17, 2006, 04:57:37 pm: Quote from: IceFire on August 17, 2006, 04:54:08 pm
with SUSE

ewww... get fedora
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: IceFire on August 17, 2006, 06:09:02 pm: I'm not a unix power user...it seems that SUSE or Ubuntu are the distros I should stick with after quite a bit of research. My SUSE install is actually toasted because I got a new video card and it no longer works. Which is a disapointment that the system can't figure something out on its own. When I get around to it, I have Ubuntu on CD which I'll install and see how that works. People seem happy with it...even on Slashdot...and they are a bunch of cynics :)
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Mars on August 17, 2006, 08:09:43 pm: Quote from: IceFire on August 17, 2006, 04:54:08 pm
OpenOffice works quite well. I don't even have MS Office on my Windows machine. There's pretty good alternatives to pretty much everything you can find on Windows.

Linux fanboy here! (just in case there was any doubt)

The best part about open office is that you don't need to pay $75-$200 (http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=Office+XP&btnG=Search) ($75 for the "sudent" edition) to upgrade to the newest version, even though it works just as well as Microsoft office, better in some ways.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Kosh on August 18, 2006, 11:18:39 pm: Quote from: IceFire on August 17, 2006, 04:54:08 pm
Quote from: Kosh on August 17, 2006, 07:03:45 am
Quote from: Mars on August 17, 2006, 02:39:58 am
Howso? :nervous:

Lots of software doesn't work on it?
Such as? Office? OpenOffice works quite well. I don't even have MS Office on my Windows machine. There's pretty good alternatives to pretty much everything you can find on Windows. I'm not a Linux fanboy...its got its problems and it took me a great deal of reading to make it work properly here (with SUSE) but its got its charms too. Software isn't so much of a problem for the average user. I could switch my mom tommorow to Ubuntu and she'd get along just fine as she had before.

What about games other than FSO?
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Kamikaze on August 19, 2006, 12:04:22 am: Quote from: Ferret on August 17, 2006, 11:38:16 am
I love it. "At the moment." Like you ever expect Windows software to work on it at all natively in the future? Come on.

I find it odd that this is labeled a "compatibility problem". Since when does Windows have binary compatibility with any other system? It doesn't. It's not even posixy enough to port most applications to it. Comparatively, it's relatively simple to port any Linux application to FreeBSD or even Mac OS X. POSIX is a 20 year old standard. By any reasonable standard of compatibility, Unices in general seem to be far ahead.

There's also some kind of misconception here. Since when have the majority of *nix users wanted to run Windows software? There's a reason that it's called "GNU/Linux", and that's because the whole system was built on the premise of free software and its strengths. That's why there is a huge collection (Debian has at least 6000 IIRC) of free software for Linux distributions that are often much better than their proprietary/shareware/freeware counterparts. Hence I don't think binary compatibility with Windows, of all things, is a valid metric of anything other than how poorly Microsoft documents their APIs.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: IceFire on August 19, 2006, 12:12:52 am: Quote from: Kosh on August 18, 2006, 11:18:39 pm
Quote from: IceFire on August 17, 2006, 04:54:08 pm
Quote from: Kosh on August 17, 2006, 07:03:45 am
Quote from: Mars on August 17, 2006, 02:39:58 am
Howso? :nervous:

Lots of software doesn't work on it?
Such as? Office? OpenOffice works quite well. I don't even have MS Office on my Windows machine. There's pretty good alternatives to pretty much everything you can find on Windows. I'm not a Linux fanboy...its got its problems and it took me a great deal of reading to make it work properly here (with SUSE) but its got its charms too. Software isn't so much of a problem for the average user. I could switch my mom tommorow to Ubuntu and she'd get along just fine as she had before.

What about games other than FSO?
Games are about the only sticking point. Even so...I know people running things like Pacific Fighters on WINE...and it works as well as or better than Windows on the same machine. Thats not a perfect process and I understand it. But not everyone plays games on their PC. Some folks are pure console fantatics and their PC is for e-mail and websurfing. If thats the case...there isn't one thing that Windows does that Linux distros can't do these days. They can do it as well as or sometimes better.

For many people Linux would be a viable option for the activities they undertake. The problem is adoption and it will remain so for quite some time. Uptake is going to take a long time. Meanwhile we have some very potent distributions these days that can appeal to the likes of me with a solid GUI, useful applications that aren't strictly scripting/programming oriented, and a process thats not so complex as to boggle my mind.

All that said, still I find that Linux still requires more computery knowledge than Windows does. Windows is the OS for idiots and thats probably the best approach to take. MacOS is the OS for complete and utter idiots and thats even better. Because honestly...I do tech support all day troubleshooting computer problems and when I get home I don't much feel like fighting another battle. Make the damned thing autodetect as much as it wants. Hide the stuff under the hood please. Linux is trying and winning at doing this but it doesn't do it as well as Windows.

Ideally...I'd like to see one or two well recognized Linux distros becoming more common place. Picking up steam and momentum like Firefox (I realize I'm talking OS's here and not a web browser) has. Hide most of the detailed stuff under the surface as much as possible but at the same time make sure its something that can be found. My biggest problem with MacOS is that you don't get alot of ability to tweak it over time. Windows is not bad for that...it does expose some of the plumbing. I'd like to see Linux follow that approach a little stronger...so that Unix/Linux command line structure under the surface is still there for the folks who want it. For everyone else...there should never be a need to see a command line EVER.

You can debate the merits of this with me if you wish...but my philosophy on computing and humand interfaces is that people in general don't have the time, paitence, or wherewithall to understand technology so tech has to be so well designed so as to make sure that its really simple and not a chore at all to do. But I also come from a perspective of wanting to look under the hood and tinker a bit. And if thats who and what you are then there should be no restrictive power to do that either. Linux has potential here for sharing that duality...we'll see how it progresses.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Bob-san on August 19, 2006, 04:25:57 pm: Agreed. Ubuntu is right now centre-stage for Linux distros. There are a few others that are popular, but Ubuntu makes a sleek shell and has the features for everone from novice to expert to use Ubuntu like they want.

Personally, I have 3 bars on my main screen of ubuntu. Top is for programs, bottom is for drive, right is for current computer usage (graphs on how much processor works, the current load, etc).

It is rather easy to use that distro, as it supports almost everything out-of-CD. It has OpenOffice on it, firefox, and about anything else you want or need! It comes with some basic games, and has burner software on it. If you are on the internet, search the Multiverse or Universe for everything else wanted. Most stuff works by autodetection, by using standards for hardware to identify the basic use of a hardware, and use it correctly. The only hardware problems are when companies enjoy making their hardware foreign to similar devices.

Hard Drives using IDE, SATA, and SCSI are usable quite easily. Flash Drives (identified with SCSI protocals) are almost all the same. Disc Drives using IDE or are external are used to their full capibility. I have a 8-month-old SuperMulti DVD burner from LG that runs off of USB2.0, and has no problems with Ubuntu.

Where are the problems? Mostly with Video Cards and damaged Mobos. Video Cards are from different technology generations. GeForce 6200 cards don't run the same as GeForce FX 5200 or GeForce 7300 cards. Each generation of technology differs in a way that require special drivers to be used properly. The same is for ATI cards.

Motherboards that become damaged are not supported during installation. My Intel mobo has a damaged DIMM slot, that prevented CentOS from installing.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Mars on August 19, 2006, 04:50:54 pm: Quote from: Bob-san on August 19, 2006, 04:25:57 pm
Agreed. Ubuntu is right now centre-stage for Linux distros. There are a few others that are popular, but Ubuntu makes a sleek shell and has the features for everone from novice to expert to use Ubuntu like they want.

Personally, I have 3 bars on my main screen of ubuntu. Top is for programs, bottom is for drive, right is for current computer usage (graphs on how much processor works, the current load, etc).

It is rather easy to use that distro, as it supports almost everything out-of-CD. It has OpenOffice on it, firefox, and about anything else you want or need! It comes with some basic games, and has burner software on it. If you are on the internet, search the Multiverse or Universe for everything else wanted. Most stuff works by autodetection, by using standards for hardware to identify the basic use of a hardware, and use it correctly. The only hardware problems are when companies enjoy making their hardware foreign to similar devices.

Hard Drives using IDE, SATA, and SCSI are usable quite easily. Flash Drives (identified with SCSI protocals) are almost all the same. Disc Drives using IDE or are external are used to their full capibility. I have a 8-month-old SuperMulti DVD burner from LG that runs off of USB2.0, and has no problems with Ubuntu.

Where are the problems? Mostly with Video Cards and damaged Mobos. Video Cards are from different technology generations. GeForce 6200 cards don't run the same as GeForce FX 5200 or GeForce 7300 cards. Each generation of technology differs in a way that require special drivers to be used properly. The same is for ATI cards.

Motherboards that become damaged are not supported during installation. My Intel mobo has a damaged DIMM slot, that prevented CentOS from installing.

Only problems I had with Ubuntu out of the box were ATI drivers and fugly GNOME, both of which were fairly easy to deal with
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Bob-san on August 19, 2006, 06:31:56 pm: Exactly! Fairly easy to get the OS to recognize your video card... It isn't a crippling problem, though it can be a problem if you are so impatient.

If you don't like GNOME, then you can easily use Kubuntu, a KDE version of Ubuntu. If you are good with Linux, you can also remove the GNOME system and replace it with KDE without using a Kubuntu disc.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Kamikaze on August 19, 2006, 07:16:53 pm: Feh. Desktops are a waste of CPU cycles anyway. I use wmii (http://wmii.de/wmii/). ;)
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Mars on August 20, 2006, 01:04:08 am: Quote from: Bob-san on August 19, 2006, 06:31:56 pm
Exactly! Fairly easy to get the OS to recognize your video card... It isn't a crippling problem, though it can be a problem if you are so impatient.

If you don't like GNOME, then you can easily use Kubuntu, a KDE version of Ubuntu. If you are good with Linux, you can also remove the GNOME system and replace it with KDE without using a Kubuntu disc.

I keep GNOME around because my brother likes it *shudder*

Quote from: Kamikaze on August 19, 2006, 07:16:53 pm
Feh. Desktops are a waste of CPU cycles anyway. I use wmii (http://wmii.de/wmii/). ;)

Better than some x-windows I've seen... my dad worked at home with an Alpha running VMS, and it had, quite possibly, the ugliest interface I've ever seen (granted beauty isn't the point of an Alpha workstation)
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Descenterace on August 20, 2006, 05:29:47 am: I fail to see what's wrong with Gnome. It lacks the flashy effects of KDE, but otherwise is quite adequate. I prefer it precisely because there's less **** to turn off. A vanilla Gnome setup is usually adequate for me.

If I wanted a pretty desktop, I'd use a Mac. If I wanted to have to turnoff a crapload of stupid features, I'd use Windows more.

It's true that Windows is the only platform for hardcore gamers. Mac OS might pick up now Apple has moved to Intel chips, but I think it's unlikely unless Vista sucks a lot. Macs are for people who use their computer for work only, and don't want to play games, install miscellaneous crap off the Internet, or spend time fixing problems with the machine.

The OS you use is mostly dependant on two things: what you use the computer for and how much you can afford to spend.
Gamers and people who need compatibility use Windows. People who like to tinker, don't want to fork out for software, or are just plain sick of Microsoft use Linux. People who use their machine to produce stuff, can afford professional software to do that production, and don't need a wide range of apps tend towards Macs, although this will change with Intel Inside...
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: IceFire on August 20, 2006, 05:31:48 pm: Alot of casual computer users who aren't gamers are shifting to Macs. Particularly university students. I forsee a larger shift to Mac over the next 10 years because of the huge gains they've made in the academic world.
Title: Re: Mac v. PC - the great debate
Post by: Kosh on August 21, 2006, 04:51:07 am: Lots of university students are into games.......

Then again all of the ones I knew were in the Engineering department :nervous: