Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on August 22, 2006, 08:28:25 am
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http://www.wired.com/news/technology/gizmos/0,71626-0.html?tw=rss.index
Sean McCarthy believes his small Irish high-tech company has overturned one of physics' most fundamental laws.
It happened by accident, he says. His company Steorn was looking for an efficient way to power closed-circuit TVs that spy on ATMs, and instead stumbled on a technique they think produces more energy than it consumes.
The company hasn't released specific details about the process, other than to say it involves magnetic fields configured in precisely the right way. Using the magnets results in a motor that's more than 100 percent efficient -- essentially creating energy, McCarthy says.
For scientists and engineers, this is the equivalent of a perpetual motion machine, and is almost unanimously viewed as flat-out impossible. McCarthy, an affable former energy company engineer, knows just how preposterous his claims sound. So, he advertised in this week's Economist for a panel of the "most cynical possible" physicists to help validate them.
Figures he's Irish. :p
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Well, if it works, he's gonna get filthy rich.
But besides from being impossible by any reason, I only believe it when I see it.
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lol.
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Am I the only one who immediately thinks of that Family Guy gag where they show the Irish first inventing Whiskey?
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"In this house WE OBEY THE LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS!"
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"In this house WE OBEY THE LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS!"
lol that simpsons was on last night here
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I can only think of the other things science has said were impossible.
Five hundred years ago science knew the world was flat.
Three hundred years ago science knew the Earth was the center of the solor system.
I'll reserve judgement until that experts rule on it.
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This is... impressive stuff. I wonder what possible applications this has. Could it run our cars indefinitely? Could it run anything that runs on electricity for that matter?
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Five hundred years ago science knew the world was flat.
And several thousand years before that we knew that it was spherical until the christians burnt down the Library of Alexandria for containing heathen knowledge. :p
I've seen lots of these perpetual motion devices appear and be debunked previously. That doesn't mean that this one shouldn't be investigated, simply that it isn't worth consideration by anyone other than the experts until it has been proved to live up to the claims of the inventor. Because the majority of these things turn out to be shameless self promotion or simple lunacy (With the rest being outright frauds).
So given that the most simple explaination is that this guy is wrong (Like every single person before him who has made the same claim) why should we give him and his company any free publicity in the meanwhile?
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I can only think of the other things science has said were impossible.
Five hundred years ago science knew the world was flat.
Aristotle (384 – 322 BC) thought earth was round. And he used the shadow of Earth and differences in night sky stars visible from Athens and from Egypt as proof to that.
Of course, Erastothenes of Alexandria (276 BC - 194 BC) actually measured how big the Earth was. He also developed latitude/longitude coordinate system...
And contrary to popular beliefs, people in middle ages didn't actually believe that earth was flat. Most likely normal people never even thought of it, so they didn't believe in either flat or round... But sailors at least knew the earth was round, and so did scholars.
Three hundred years ago science knew the Earth was the center of the solor system.
Considering that Newton published his Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica July 5, 1687 (and that was 319 years ago), I'd say that there were no real scientists 300 years ago that STILL did prefer the geocentric model of universe. People, yes, but no scientists.
What you refer to was not science but dogmatic view of nature preferred by religious authorities.
However, it is true that modern day physics is in quite essentially in same state as it was before quantum mechanics and relativity principle were introduced... in 19th century and early 20th, many scientists really thought that most natural phenomena had already been explained and the classical physics, coupled with Maxwell's electromagnetics, was the key to understanding everything in nature, and only minor details needed clarification.
Those minor details were really minuscule - but they had a profound effect in physics. After Planck's and Einstein's presentations of what's actually going on in electrodynamics really expanded the physical knowledge, and that expansion has been continuing until present day...
Today, we again seem to think that we know most things, and just a few things are in need of a finalizing, great unification, and then all the physics can be summed together into one Grand Unified Theory.
Anyway, one thing is sure - no device produces energy of *nothing*. It comes from something. We may not know what causes it, but something does, and some day we'll find out how it happens.
That's assuming that this news is not just another flase alarm. There has been numerous quite similar news, and nothing has ever been heard of them later. And don't you dar even look at the door that reads CONSPIRACY with big, red letters. We don't need any (more) theories explaining how oil companies silently get rid of the energy machines that could threaten their business... :rolleyes:
EDIT: One more thing, quote from th eopening message's link:
"Such devices directly violate the most fundamental laws of nature, laws that have guided the scientific progress that is transforming our world."
Devices can't violate laws of nature.
They can seemingly work in a way that is in controversy with human knowledge of laws of nature, but that's no reason to say the devices themselves violate laws of physics. :D
If something happens, it happens, no matter how impossible it might look like. If this device indeed produces energy, that energy comes from something, and it's up to scientists to research the phenomenon and define the mechanisms behind it.
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I can only think of the other things science has said were impossible.
Five hundred years ago science knew the world was flat.
Three hundred years ago science knew the Earth was the center of the solor system.
I'll reserve judgement until that experts rule on it.
Worth mentioning, methinks, that 15 thousand years ago the Vedic scrolls described the Earth as spherical and orbiting the sun...
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Worth mentioning, methinks, that 15 thousand years ago the Vedic scrolls described the Earth as spherical and orbiting the sun...
No way. 15 000 years can't be what you are meaning... :nervous:
You must be meaning five thousand years ago.
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I was speaking metaphorically. I merely meant to point out that science has been wrong before. My sources were...ill chosen.
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"Such devices directly violate the most fundamental laws of nature, laws that have guided the scientific progress that is transforming our world."
Devices can't violate laws of nature.
They can seemingly work in a way that is in controversy with human knowledge of laws of nature, but that's no reason to say the devices themselves violate laws of physics. :D
If something happens, it happens, no matter how impossible it might look like. If this device indeed produces energy, that energy comes from something, and it's up to scientists to research the phenomenon and define the mechanisms behind it.
QFT. :yes:
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I can only think of the other things science has said were impossible.
Five hundred years ago science knew the world was flat.
Three hundred years ago science knew the Earth was the center of the solor system.
I'll reserve judgement until that experts rule on it.
Worth mentioning, methinks, that 15 thousand years ago the Vedic scrolls described the Earth as spherical and orbiting the sun...
that would be impressive, considering writing hadn't been developed at that point! And wouldn't be for another 10000 years (and that's for the Near East, iirc writing in the Indus valley was a bit later)
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Yes, I'm talking out my arse. Where the hell did I get that date from? Now I look a twat :o
Anyways, the Vedic scrolls had the first description of this solar system arrangement, well before the Greeks. Just, er, not quite that long ago. 2500-500 BC, I believe.
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Exciting improbability indeed, the applications could be incredible.
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Problem with these types of things is that they all claim very fascinating phenomena and practical applications. The first time it happened everyone's excited until they found out it's fake. Lo and behold, here comes the second, the third and the fourth imitator! Now it's more like someone comes along and says "the moonlanding is fake", "9/11 was an inside job" and "I invented a PMM". Before you know it everyone is calling him an idiot.
Seriously, I don't buy it either. I hope someone goes there and analyzes it nevertheless. Even if it isn't a PMM (which is VERY likely), chances are it's very efficient. Efficiency never hurts.
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Oh, I invented the internet by the way.
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Honestly, I want this to be real simply to annoy and confuse scientists for at least the next two centuries.
I'd also love it if the "gizmo that saved the world" did turn out to have been invented by the Irish, by accident. There something about that idea that's just so perfectly wrong it's right, and has to be true.
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*crosses fingers*
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Yes, I'm talking out my arse. Where the hell did I get that date from?
Graham Hancock? I've heard that he's been running around looking rather pleased with himself this afternoon :p
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The Laws of Thermodynamics are a lot like the Law of Gravity... it may be wrong, but I really doubt it.
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Most of these announcements are hoaxes in one form or another. Some of them are caused by bad calculations and some of them are scams. This one is probably the former more than the latter considering the economics of the situation (the company is not asking for investors). It'll be interesting to see where this goes if anywhere at all.
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Well it could be the circuit is receiving feedback from an external power source (EM energy for instance)
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Assuming that this device indeed features output>input electric power thing, there are a few things that need be considered as reason.
Firstly, we have to remember and accept that the second rule of thermodynamics is not always applicable. Clearly something can come out of nothing, as the whole existence of the universe blatantly tells us. The 2nd law is supposed to be true in the universe, but it's only applicable after the universe was formed, presumably in so called "Big Bang". Some people talk about creation, but the way the universe was born does not really matter. The point is that if t = time, then
t < 0 - 2nd law of thermodynamics non-applicable*
t = 0 - 2:nd law still not applicable **
t > 0 - 2nd law apparently applicable ***
...presuming that the universe was born at t = 0.
*because time before zero wasn't defined because there was nothing to measure the rate of events, thus there was no time axis yet.
**energy is borne out of (presumably) some kind of quantum balance disruption of Empty, or something similar.
***meaning that as of yet, there hasn't been measurable exceptions to rule. Though that's not actually true, quantum fluctuations of the vacuum happen all the time, they just happen in very very small scale, but they still can create measurable effects.
For example, two metal plates placed VERY near each other are pulled towards each other, because there's more fluctuation going on on the outsides than on the inside. That's very vague explanation, I know, but it gets very complex and it's called the Casimir effect. So the vacuum itself causes a force between two objects... Interesting, eh? The problem with Casimir effect is that it's a bilinear, static force, and static forces are not known of being very helpful in energy production. Gravity also generates a force, but you can't make energy out of gravity force, you can just store energy onto objects as gravitational potential energy.
Now, if the 2:nd rule can be broken after t = 0, it basically can mean some things.
Thers's basically two possibilities for the origins of the energy (if it exists): Either the energy is created in the process or it comes from *somewhere*. That somewhere is either this verse or some other verse in the multiversum.
1. The device somehow creates similar conditions to Time Zero, thus enabling energy being born out of nothingness. This possibility
There are many things that are against the possibility of a device creating similar conditions to Time Zero. Though we don't know how it actually was at that time, we only know what the conditions were few microseconds AFTER Time Zero. It's possible, but quite unprobable.
2. A second possibility is that the multiversum hypothesis is true, and somehow the device creates conditions where energy is allowed to flow from universe to other. Of course, in this case we have to stop calling our universe an universe, it'll just be a verse and the multiverse becomes the universe, because one of the definitions of universe is that it's everything there is and there's no outside...
This is actually quite interesting, but morally problematic possibility. What if we bleed some other verse out of energy? Can someone do the same to us?
If they can do the same to us, theoretically this device could be used to send messages between universes... I take three bursts of energy, they take a certain amount of bursts... soon you could do Morse with them, if the leeching point happens to be in a place where there are sentient beings capable of wondering why their powerplant output has inexplicably reduced...
3. There's also a chance that energy comes from somewhere within our own universe, by means that are not yet known (yes it's a wide shot, but much more likely than possibilities 1 and 2). Though this is not as inspiring as the earlier ones, it might create new branches of research and possibly new ways for energy transfer. Note that this possibility also contains the dreaded "Goddidit"- possibility.
Of course, that's just presuming that the device indeed works as claimed - a pretty big assume.
More likely the source of energy could be misinterpreted measurements, like different scales or even systematic measurement error that hasn't been noticed. Even NASA scientists messed up with Newtons and pounds as units of thrust with one of their more unlucky Mars probes. Or the manufacturers of the probe's computer did. Depends of the interpretation. Most likely there is some simple explanation for this, but if there isn't, then there are exciting times ahead. Who knows, it might be genuine after all.
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I can only think of the other things science has said were impossible.
Five hundred years ago science knew the world was flat.
Three hundred years ago science knew the Earth was the center of the solor system.
I'll reserve judgement until that experts rule on it.
Worth mentioning, methinks, that 15 thousand years ago the Vedic scrolls described the Earth as spherical and orbiting the sun...
that would be impressive, considering writing hadn't been developed at that point! And wouldn't be for another 10000 years (and that's for the Near East, iirc writing in the Indus valley was a bit later)
That's assuming that you consider Indus script "writing" ;)
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I'm reminded of a situation in Schlock Mercenary (I think) where devices are invented that 'create' energy, but are later discovered to be taking it from the past. No one cares until they realise they're impoverishing the present. So then they go and invent a means of taking energy from the future...
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Yes, I'm talking out my arse. Where the hell did I get that date from?
Graham Hancock? I've heard that he's been running around looking rather pleased with himself this afternoon :p
Who?
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I'm reminded of a situation in Schlock Mercenary (I think) where devices are invented that 'create' energy, but are later discovered to be taking it from the past. No one cares until they realise they're impoverishing the present. So then they go and invent a means of taking energy from the future...
That's Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy, forgot which book though.
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Even NASA scientists messed up with Newtons and pounds as units of thrust with one of their more unlucky Mars probes.
They didn't convert miles to kilometers properly.
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Nope... it was about mix-up between Newtons and pounds.
Or rather, the impulse exerted to craft by thrusters was interpreted wrongly in Earth. But it had originally no big things to do with distance units, the problem was that the software had a semantic error that caused it to output wrong results, and the base reason for that was that different parts of information's computing processes used different programs and the different programs used different units, which would otherwise work perfectly, but the problem was that NASA tested the software too little (to save money, obviously).
It was the difference between pound-seconds and Newton-seconds (units of impulse) that killed the beast. More reading here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter#The_metric_mixup).
But that's not actually related to actual subject of thread, I just wanted to point out that even the best engineers make mistakes, and that's exactly why scientific tests must be documented with extreme care so that the conditions can be duplicated and the results can be confirmed by independent researchers. I think this Irish guy did just the right thing when he called for a sceptic board of scientist to evaluate what the device does.
There's a thousand things that can be misinterpreted in a scientific test. One switch in wrong position, and the group thinks the feed 200 W to device, when instead the power is, say, 210 W, and when the device puts out 205 W they are astounded. Things like that do happen.
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Who?
The guy who claims that there was a master civilisation 12,000 years ago and that the pyramids line up to make Orions belt 12,000 years ago. :)
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Who?
The guy who claims that there was a master civilisation 12,000 years ago and that the pyramids line up to make Orions belt 12,000 years ago. :)
Scientologist?
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Nope. Far stranger. At least with scientologists no matter how stange and outlandish their beliefs there is very little to prove them wrong (nothing that proves them right either though).
Like I said before this guy claims that the Pyramids were built to line up exactly with Orion's belt as it was 12,500 years ago but who fails to find it strange that the ancient eygptians could figure out what the star patterns were 12,500 years ago, spend years building a monument to that date and yet still managed to build the damn thing upside down.
He also claims that the temples of Ankor Wat are built to represent the constallation of Draco (A star sign that appears to have had no importance to the people of the day) by joining up 12 of the 58 or so temples to make a pattern that sort of looks a bit like Draco. The fact that BBCs Horizon program were able to prove that you could make the constellation of Leo from famous New York landmarks by a similar process means nothing to him.
The best one though is his explaination for why radiocarbon dating on artifacts he claims are from his 12,500 year old civilisation works out that they are only about 4,000 years old. The radiocarbon dating is wrong.
No explaination appears to be given of why or how. It's just wrong :D
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Perpetual motion would be needed in hitchikers guide, nor time travel grabbing.
Just improbability :lol:
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i dont know if anyone ever noticed, but the universe IS a propetual motion machine. :D
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i dont know if anyone ever noticed, but the universe IS a propetual motion machine. :D
...no it's not.
1st grade perpetuum mobile is a closed system which, when X amount of energy is put in, starts increasing that amount of energy, so that net energy level increases. In this case, the enthropy of the system decreases (ie. energy potential differences are created without using energy to create them).
2nd grade perpetuum mobile is a closed system which runs without energy losses forever. In this case the enhtropy of the system is constant.
The universe (or possibly multiverse, in case the universes interact each other is a closed system) is a closed system, but the entropy of universe increases all the time until there are no energy potentials to draw motion from. In that point the enthropy of universe has reached its maximum level and can't be increased any more, but this is not a 2nd grade perpetuum mobile, because in this phase, the universe "won't run" any more. Everything stops when energy potentials are all smoothened up and everything is just a homogenous space with standard energy level everywhere. That's called "thermal death" of the universe, and it's tho most probable course of future for our universe.
This is how the world ends.
However, it is true that the second law of thermodynamics was broken in the beginning of the universe, but that's quite natural because enthropy is bound to time, and before universe there was no time, so there was no dynamics to be broken.
Most likely the universe as we see it is just a prolonged massive fluctuation in quantum vacuum. It's still quite cool, eh? :D
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*Snip*
This is how the world ends.
Take that Cortana!
Damn, what is it with all the nerdy-jokes i've been making lately. Sheesh.
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With sufficient improbability, anything can happen, and if the universe dies a thermal death, improbability will come back to haunt it...
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humans invented time, there really is no such thing :)
and an infinite engine is well possible :p aslong as it ignores time and just keeps looping back to where it had fuel to go back :p
infinite loop though
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Reminds me of that Isaac Asimov short story
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It's getting energy from somewhere. I say even if this is true, he's just not noticed where the energy was coming from.
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I'm reminded of a situation in Schlock Mercenary (I think) where devices are invented that 'create' energy, but are later discovered to be taking it from the past. No one cares until they realise they're impoverishing the present. So then they go and invent a means of taking energy from the future...
That's Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy, forgot which book though.
Ah, thanks! I haven't read HHGTTG in ages; maybe I should buy it and add it to my collection permanently...
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humans invented time, there really is no such thing :)
No, humans invented units in which to measure time, how could we possibly invent time, time passed before there was humans???
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Settle down, i'm sure he was just joking. Sheesh.
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Any word yet on the verdict of the panel of experts who said they would validate this thing? Or has the panel yet to be formed?
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dunno, but id like to know also
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Any word yet on the verdict of the panel of experts who said they would validate this thing? Or has the panel yet to be formed?
Yes we want answers dammit.
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It will not be a panel of experts in the field if James Randi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi) isn't on it :)
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Reminds me of that Isaac Asimov short story
The Last Question
i love that one.
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...no it's not.
1st grade perpetuum mobile is a closed system which, when X amount of energy is put in, starts increasing that amount of energy, so that net energy level increases. In this case, the enthropy of the system decreases (ie. energy potential differences are created without using energy to create them).
2nd grade perpetuum mobile is a closed system which runs without energy losses forever. In this case the enhtropy of the system is constant.
The universe (or possibly multiverse, in case the universes interact each other is a closed system) is a closed system, but the entropy of universe increases all the time until there are no energy potentials to draw motion from. In that point the enthropy of universe has reached its maximum level and can't be increased any more, but this is not a 2nd grade perpetuum mobile, because in this phase, the universe "won't run" any more. Everything stops when energy potentials are all smoothened up and everything is just a homogenous space with standard energy level everywhere. That's called "thermal death" of the universe, and it's tho most probable course of future for our universe.
This is how the world ends.
However, it is true that the second law of thermodynamics was broken in the beginning of the universe, but that's quite natural because enthropy is bound to time, and before universe there was no time, so there was no dynamics to be broken.
Most likely the universe as we see it is just a prolonged massive fluctuation in quantum vacuum. It's still quite cool, eh? :D
Ok, who are you, and why do you (sound like you) know all this stuff? :lol:
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I study physics. Need I say more? :cool:
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Herra = Physics guru. He schooled me in another thread once...My mind still bears the stretch marks from sudden cranial expansion. :)
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so has this been confirmed to be real? (not likely)
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Steorn Challenge (http://www.steorn.net/challenge.aspx?p=1)
They are at the end of process of getting a list of scientists who are willing to form the independent jury that is supposed to define whether this thing works or not.
There's only one day left at the counter, so they're supposedly soon starting their Pre-Phase 1 stage. That includes "Analysing list of scientists, contact and verify interest, choose twelve and negotiate terms."
almost 5000 scientists have seemingly announced they are willing to participate.
After that's done, the actual work will begin. And nuts as it may sound like, I'm actually eagerly waiting for results. This doesn't seem to be a simple hoax as most "free-energy" enterprizes are, mainly because they are not commercializing anything before the committee has done its work and verified the technology.
Only way this could possibly be a hoax is if it's some kind of promotion plot with huge risk of losing support in the end... but as they say, there's no bad publicity.
Anyway, you can sign up on e-mail list to be among first ones to receive the results. I did so, let's see if anything will ever drop into my inbox from Steorn... If you want to risk getting spammed, get into their homepage (http://steorn.com) and throw your e-mail in.
What I find disturbing is that the poll counter is showing that most of who answered seem to think that science should *not* accept the challenge. I don't understand that attitude. AS I earlier said, what happens, does happens and if the devices are what they areclaimed to be it'd be a damn good thing. If they aren't, so what, there's really nothing to lose in this. Except Steorn has their integrity to lose.
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I would not be surprised to discover that it's not a perpetual-motion device, but something of possibly more import - a way of tapping into and making use of some sort of underlying energy field... maybe even one that emanates from all living beings, and binds the universe together! :p
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Of course the energy does not come from nothing, that much is clear.
AS for whether or not we know where the energy comes or how it is produced (if is, it's not been confirmed yet and it'll take some more time - probably at least weeks and actually most likely months until the 12-member jury has inspected the technology thoroughly), that's the real trick.
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it cant be perpetual moting, or the universe would never end because it would never reach maximum entropy :)
but it might be some new cool powersource which has very low entropy for the power it produces
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Or maybe it could reveal new technology that will lead to subspace drives. :eek:
Anyways, I'm also awaiting the official results. My gut feeling says it'll end up being a miscalculation/error, but I sure hope it's something new and unexpected. :)
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Okay, they say a thousand qualified scientists were amongs the ~5000 applications.
That's not bad, 1:4 ratio between real and false applications. I'm actually surprized there was not more vandalism. And I'm happy there was so little about it.
I hope they got a good jury together. :)
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still theyr all just gonna go omfg lies bad bad crap :hopping: :hopping: :hopping: impossible
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Hey! What's with all the Irish digs? It IS just like a gag real from the Simpsons in here.We Irish ain't conmen or liers. Just scallywags and rapscallions.
Hmmmmm......
Damn this hangover.
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Haha, rather funny this should come up again considering this week's episode of Atlantis. :D
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atlantis had nothing to do with perpetual motion :)
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While we're on about semi-related media references...
"Oh look. My auxiliary toolkit. I forgot about it. It must've slipped out of my pocket."
"Your pocket? Why wasn't it on some contraption that shoots out your ass?"
"That's the first place Loveless would've looked."
Kudos if you can figure out how that's related...
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i know its from wild wild west but whaa?
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From http://blogs.chron.com/sciguy/archives/2006/08/steorn_and_free_1.html:
Recall that Steorn is a former e-business company that saw its market vanish during the dot.com bust. It stands to reason that Steorn has re-tooled as a Web marketing company, and is using the "free energy" promotion as a platform to show future clients how it can leverage print advertising and a slick Web site to promote their products and ideas. If so, it's a pretty brilliant strategy.
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I would not be surprised to discover that it's not a perpetual-motion device, but something of possibly more import - a way of tapping into and making use of some sort of underlying energy field... maybe even one that emanates from all living beings, and binds the universe together! :p
dude, that's like so deep, i mean, whoa, pass the bong already man
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Yoda's turniung in his grave :lol:
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Yoda's turniung in his grave :lol:
Attach a generator quick!
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atlantis had nothing to do with perpetual motion :)
Perpetual energy, Meredith.
(Which, by the way, the episode was the universe's sweet revenge for Meris' saying I'm like McKay. Well guess what, she has the same name as him!)
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i cant bellive his middle name is meridith :D
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Yoda's turniung in his grave :lol:
Attach a generator quick!
It's okay! He shouldn't be stopping any time soon.
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He's got 3 Episodes worth of spinning to do, should at least be enough to power Manhattan for a few months....
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Yoda's turniung in his grave :lol:
Attach a generator quick!
:lol:
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Yoda's turniung in his grave :lol:
Attach a generator quick!
What do we measure the output in...YodaVolts? Yodamps?
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Measure it in proper grammar!! Yoda is the source of grammar!
Crazy this guy is...
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And as we lay the green one to rest, let us pray.....................That he keeps it up til Dragons den finishes..