Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: redmenace on September 07, 2006, 05:31:33 am
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=403757&in_page_id=1770
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He said: "People will disregard evidence it if causes their faith to be shattered. I think we were all shocked. And then, when the voice of authority told us what happened, we just believed it."
You've got to admit, he makes a valid point. Just because it's a tragic event doesn't mean all avenues should not be explored.
Also: To plant bombs in three buildings with enough bomb materials and wiring? It's too huge a project and would require far too many people to keep it a secret afterwards.
So? A bunch of errant fanatics managed to orchestrate a synchronised hijacking of four seperate planes across the continental United States without the CIA & FBI getting more than a whiff, so why are bombs completely out of the question?
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Daily Mail = utter bollocks.
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The FBI did get a whiff though. They knew both that the terrorists were in the USA and that they were attending a flight school. They just didn't put two and two together.
As for that melting steel crap just about any sensible person knows that iron can loose tensile strength when heated. You only need look at how they hammered red hot steel into swords and horseshoes to see that. Steel is exactly the same. When hot it's weaker. You don't need to melt it to have that effect.
I'm not saying that there may not be a conspiracy behind 9/11 but whatever it was this evidence is a load of **** and should be treated that way.
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Daily Mail = utter bollocks.
Ok, doesn't mean the article isn't untrue or doesn't summ up their positions.
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Daily Mail = utter bollocks.
Ok, doesn't mean the article isn't untrue or doesn't summ up their positions.
It probably does, actually.
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Well, hoping to avoid a pointless debate, I have no idea who they are so I will leave it as that. The real point to the thread is really an admission.
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'all I'm saying is both theories should be taught'
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Well, hoping to avoid a pointless debate, I have no idea who they are so I will leave it as that. The real point to the thread is really an admission.
An admission of what? You really haven't made it all that clear who you're "agreeing" with.
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'all I'm saying is both theories should be taught'
That sounds oddly familiar....
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Daily Mail = utter bollocks.
Ok, doesn't mean the article isn't untrue or doesn't summ up their positions.
It's inevitably sensationalised pish. You, clearly, don't know the Daily Mail.
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Well, hoping to avoid a pointless debate, I have no idea who they are so I will leave it as that. The real point to the thread is really an admission.
It's inevitably sensationalised pish. You, clearly, don't know the Daily Mail.
I think thats what he meant?
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'all I'm saying is both theories should be taught'
huzzah
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Well, hoping to avoid a pointless debate, I have no idea who they are so I will leave it as that. The real point to the thread is really an admission.
An admission of what? You really haven't made it all that clear who you're "agreeing" with.
Agreeing with the conspiracy crowd. The more I see, for instance, the object hitting the Pentagon the more I tend to with those that say the there was a conspiracy behind it.
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See the problem here is that while I do accept that a lot of the 9/11 story is fishy, to say the least, I also can't accept the perception of the supposed terrorits involved in it as being: "19 hijackers and a few others in a cave in Afghanistan".
It comes back to the one bit of Black Hawk Down that I really enjoyed, during an interrogation where one man says: "Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because I grew up without running water, that I am a fool."
bin Laden, his cohorts and most other islamic extremists are not idiots. They are not uneducated cave dwellers sitting coming up with pipe dreams of how to kill infidel. They are well educated, tactically minded "soldiers", if you will, who are very capable of pulling something like this off.
That's not to say they did, but to automatically dismiss the possibility based on a false perception of their ability does not lend credit to these gentlemen and their theory.
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The problem for these sorts of conspiracy theories, for me, is which is more likely; this thing happening and leaving some unexplained questions (or just complicated answers), or some convoluted set of planned contrivances that answer every single little possible question and get carried out without a shred of evidence being left behind.
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No government in the history of mankind has ever been capable of keeping a secret.
Even the military has a tough time of it.
The American people just like to think they're invincible - that a few terrorists sitting around talking could come up with a way to hurt them, and pull it off without the ever-vigilant, all-pervasive security organizations catching them in the act. It's always got to be some huge, sprawling conspiracy involving thousands of intricate details and evil people, and the US Government betraying the people. It can never just be a bunch of guys who didn't like them getting lucky.
Anyone who has ever seen a ****ing brick-shed collapse knows that the Twin Towers were not a controlled detonation. They didn't collapse or explode, they ****ing crumbled.
But, y'know, even if the CIA did explode them - what the **** else were they gonna do? Just let two huge pillars of concrete topple over onto the rest of the city? Grow up.
As for the Pentagon, I actually do think there was something fishy going on there. Like a missile. C'z it sounds a lot better going "Oh yeah, there was a third plane that hit the Pentagon", than telling a room full of reporters "Plane? No, they smuggled a long-range tactical missile into the country, set it up and launched it at the US military HQ from 50 miles away."
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Somehow I doubt it was a missile though. The White House would have made a much better target and was only saved by the fact that the 4th plane didn't make it. The White House was obviously left for last as the coup de gras of the attack. If they had a missile that would have been the target.
The only place I'd be willing to believe a conspiracy exists is with the 4th plane. I've got no problem believing that it was shot down and covered up. In the wake of 9/11 no one would want to deal with the mess that would be caused from letting the public know that. Far better to tell America that everyone died as heroes.
Not that I believe that is what happened but if the evidence was uncovered to prove that it did go down that way I wouldn't be surprised. The reason I'd buy it is that it is a much easier thing to conceal and there is a motive to conceal it that people would have found morally acceptable.
But a whole big government plot to blow up the towers and not one person thinks "Hey. I don't agree with killing 3000 US citizens" I just don't buy that.
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Personally, I'm inclined to agree with you Kara, but I can't help thinking back to those plans for initiating a War with Cuba that surfaced a while ago....
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Oh I agree with that. I don't doubt that there are bastards in the US government who would be willing to try an Operation Northwoods like conspiracy. What I doubt is that they'd ever be able to get enough people together who would go along with it.
Remember that if the secret ever did come out those responsible would be dead. Either by assassination or by the courts. I very much doubt that anyone in the current goverment is brave enough to take that risk.
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True, I suspect the truth of the matter is that the American Government thought exactly the same thing those scientists do....
Prof Jones said: "We don't believe that 19 hijackers and a few others in a cave in Afghanistan pulled this off acting alone.
It's just that they both came to different conclusions as to 'who helped whom'.
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Another thing is, they wouldn't need 4 planes for a nation uniting conspiracy - one would do. In fact, they probably wouldn't have to do anything so damaging as crash them into targets on American soil.
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Problem is, you can second guess yourself round in circles, throwing in arguments like 'What if the US government realised that no-one would ever believe that a Government would fly 4 planes into it's own home soil, and that's why they got away with it?'
As someone said earlier, this is going to be another Kennedy.
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Do we really want to look at the cause, or shall we look at the effect?
And the effect is massive. For the price of a few thousand lives, the US government can now do more or less what it likes in the name of anti-terrorism measures... and like the fat people in the obesity thread, nobody (official) has the gonads to say "you got hit, and it does suck - but take it on the chin and keep a watchful eye on your borders - but you can't invade other countries however you feel like it."
As for the UK? Well our goverment is loving it as well. While 7/7 wasn't anywhere near as grand (though it was my birthday, woo!) - it was also a lisence to keep the entire populace on a tight leash. The entire white middle class populace at any rate - the immigrants can do what they like apparently.
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Don't forget the consequential economic crash, of course.
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This is why 'slaughtering all the politicians' is part of my sprawling plan for global domination.
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Oh, theres no doubt that regardless of who did it, the Governments have deliberately used it to tighten their control on the population, not just in the UK and US either, a lot of Middle Eastern countries have used this as an excuse to 'stamp down'. This is possibly why we are seeing a slow increase in Terrorism in the Borderline friendly states.
The Labour Government will not, in my opinion, pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq until it has at least introduced ID cards and fingerprint logging on children when they start school in the UK. Regardless of how it started, the 'War on Terror' continues because both our governments made really constricting statements of principal and cannot back down from them. If 'We don't talk to Terrorists', then why this is how almost every situation like this gets solved, I'm certain both the British and American readers remember that the UK governement 'Did not negotiate' with the IRA for a long long time, and it took a third country to intervene. Unfortunately, there's no real country that can walk up to the US and knock it about the head with it's own pig-headedness on the matter, as they did with us.
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As someone far more famous than me already said, it can't be a conspiricy because the people who have "proof" and lending it weight are still alive.
If you assume there is a massive coverup involving thousands of people. People had to come up with the plan. Everyday (relatively) people had to plant the explosives, then detonate. Evacuate the buildings while explosives were being put in without people knowing. People who investigated 9/11 to lie about DNA evidence. The people on the planes had to be moved and convinced never to talk to their families again. (since we believe no plane hit the Pentagon, those people had to go somewhere). You had to kill all the terrorists so they couldn't show up later. And you had to pray the terrorists actually claimed they did it.
You think this massive (and it would have to be truly massive) conspiricy could be uncovered by a bunch of college kids with too much free time?
So they could pass some laws? And invade a country? Seriously? If you could pull off something like that, shoot for total world domination.
It reminds me of something I saw when I was watching a documentary about the Kennedy assassination. That if you put Oswald and Kennedy on a scale, they didn't match. JFK was far too important to be killed by Oswald, so there had to be more so it could even out.
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Neo-conservatives.. :lol:
Oh and:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons
I've heard many a conspiracy, but haven't heard the one of an "object" hitting the pentagon instead of a plane?
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One of the fundemental points that causes stuff like this is quite simple, but nobody ever seems to understand it. You are only as safe as your enemies think you are. Invincibility exists in the minds of your opponents more then it does as a matter of fact.
People think 9/11 was some kind of colossal enterprise requiring great sums of money and true genius to defeat the US. It was no such thing. It only required 19 men, some flight training (which to be honest you could probably have picked up from Microsoft Flight Simulator), some X-Acto knives, the will to do it, and enough common sense not to talk about it.
What keeps people in intelligence and security organizations up at night is precisely the fact that it is not that difficult to accomplish such things. In the end it is our fortune that whatever pyschological conditions give people the aforementioned will to do it also tend to cause them to in effect finger themselves by talking about it. The ones who do not talk are the ones that succeed, but it is a lesson that for some reason has never sunk in; perhaps it can't. Lee Harvey Oswald could do what he did because he never displayed the slightest interest in it beforehand. The hunt for Unabomber took years because Mr. Kazanky kept his mouth shut and didn't do anything suspicious openly.
Intelligence and security agencies are ultimately hamstrung by the fact the other guy has to screw up first. The US has particularly good security, and very slight screwups will bring the whole world down on your head. But the other guy still has to screw up.
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As someone said earlier, this is going to be another Kennedy.
Of course it is. The Kennedy assassination really ****ed up America.
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I suppose this is the price you pay for Freedom of Speech, unfortunately, its existence allows for the likes of the Jack Thompsons, and the 'Moon Landing Hoaxers' all the way up those with more directly offensive opinions, such as Fred Phelps and Ann Coulter.
But I think to a certain degree, the very existence of those kind of people in the public eye proves that Freedom of Speech is still working. I just wish there were some way of testing whether those opinions are real opinions or deliberately picked to exploit the First Amendment for personal gain, I suspect the latter far far more than the former in most cases.
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As someone said earlier, this is going to be another Kennedy.
Of course it is. The Kennedy assassination really ****ed up America.
Not according to Red Dwarf....
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...and the 'Moon Landing Hoaxers'
Don't go there, man.
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Yeah, there's very little oxygen...
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Lots of whalers, though.
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Oh for the love of...
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...Mike.
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You rang?
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http://flixya.com/911-conspiracy-theory-cover-up
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Too long to watch while on break at work... maybe when I get home...
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Well, hoping to avoid a pointless debate, I have no idea who they are so I will leave it as that. The real point to the thread is really an admission.
An admission of what? You really haven't made it all that clear who you're "agreeing" with.
Agreeing with the conspiracy crowd. The more I see, for instance, the object hitting the Pentagon the more I tend to with those that say the there was a conspiracy behind it.
Oh you mean the airplane in the video?
I agree, there was a conspiracy, perpetuated by 19 men, killing thousands of innocent people. It just wasnt DA GUBMINT.
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Oh you mean the airplane in the video?
I agree, there was a conspiracy, perpetuated by 19 men, killing thousands of innocent people. It just wasnt DA GUBMINT.
So you won't even entertain the possibility that something may have gone on beyond what the public were told?
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Oh you mean the airplane in the video?
I agree, there was a conspiracy, perpetuated by 19 men, killing thousands of innocent people. It just wasnt DA GUBMINT.
So you won't even entertain the possibility that something may have gone on beyond what the public were told?
I entertained the idea and it was stupid and unscientific, therefore I rejected it. I mean, why shouldn't I believe what third parties with expertise on these particular issues tell me? Especially when they independently arrive to same conclusions?
Seriously, the entire conspiracy theory is mind-bogglinly insane.
- the conspiracy would have to be huge
- it has to stay secret and how the hell is that possible - nations supporting an assasination of random figure X will inevitably get revealed
- there's footage of all airplanes
- there are relly good engineer explanations about all the explosions
The list just goes on and on.
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Oh you mean the airplane in the video?
I agree, there was a conspiracy, perpetuated by 19 men, killing thousands of innocent people. It just wasnt DA GUBMINT.
So you won't even entertain the possibility that something may have gone on beyond what the public were told?
I entertained the idea and it was stupid and unscientific, therefore I rejected it. I mean, why shouldn't I believe what third parties with expertise on these particular issues tell me? Especially when they independently arrive to same conclusions?
Seriously, the entire conspiracy theory is mind-bogglinly insane.
- the conspiracy would have to be huge
- it has to stay secret and how the hell is that possible - nations supporting an assasination of random figure X will inevitably get revealed
- there's footage of all airplanes
- there are relly good engineer explanations about all the explosions
The list just goes on and on.
Excuse me? See, that's the problem with you people; someone even mentions 'conspiracy', and your mind jumps instantly to massive globe-encompassing organisations of eville with secret plans going up to the highest levels of government, which is of course completely proposterous. I merely asked whether you were completely close-minded to the idea of something "beyond what the public has been told". No evil conspiracies, no secret agendas, no aliens, just something.
Personally, i'm the kind of person who believes what he sees, and I see some general problems with the whole event. Nothing ground-breaking, just things that don't fit with the official story. You on the other hand are obviously the kind of person who believes what he's told. There's nothing wrong with that, just that I would think it to be a rather boring existence.
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Excuse me? See, that's the problem with you people; someone even mentions 'conspiracy', and your mind jumps instantly to massive globe-encompassing organisations of eville with secret plans going up to the highest levels of government, which is of course completely proposterous. I merely asked whether you were completely close-minded to the idea of something "beyond what the public has been told". No evil conspiracies, no secret agendas, no aliens, just something.
Well of course there is something, for example tapes of discussions which went through in military and so on. So what? There's always something! What's important? What's the big deal? What important we are not being told?
Personally, i'm the kind of person who believes what he sees, and I see some general problems with the whole event. Nothing ground-breaking, just things that don't fit with the official story. You on the other hand are obviously the kind of person who believes what he's told. There's nothing wrong with that, just that I would think it to be a rather boring existence.
blah blah. I believe what I am told when it makes sense. HOW DOES YOUR PRECIOUS ELECTRICITY WORK NOW HAH AHA HAHA seriously duhh, sometimes you're better off by learning from experts.
Just because you have eyes does not mean you understand what you see.
And pray tell me, what are these "problems" with the hole event? Point them out. Because they have been debunked and they're propably nothing. Go ahead. I dare you.
btw do you believe in oxygen
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blah blah. I believe what I am told when it makes sense. HOW DOES YOUR PRECIOUS ELECTRICITY WORK NOW HAH AHA HAHA seriously duhh, sometimes you're better off by learning from experts.
Just because you have eyes does not mean you understand what you see.
And pray tell me, what are these "problems" with the hole event? Point them out. Because they have been debunked and they're propably nothing. Go ahead. I dare you.
btw do you believe in oxygen
Since you feel like being snippy, I won't even bother. :rolleyes:
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blah blah. I believe what I am told when it makes sense. HOW DOES YOUR PRECIOUS ELECTRICITY WORK NOW HAH AHA HAHA seriously duhh, sometimes you're better off by learning from experts.
Just because you have eyes does not mean you understand what you see.
And pray tell me, what are these "problems" with the hole event? Point them out. Because they have been debunked and they're propably nothing. Go ahead. I dare you.
btw do you believe in oxygen
Since you feel like being snippy, I won't even bother. :rolleyes:
I am hungover and apologize for being a ****, but I ask you again for these problems.