Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on September 15, 2006, 09:19:36 pm
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http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/HI16Aa03.html
11. Gang warfare
According to the Chicago Sun-Times, law-enforcement officials report that the military is now "allowing more applicants with gang tattoos because they are under the gun to keep enlistment up". They also note that "gang activity may be rising among soldiers". The paper was provided with "photos of military buildings and equipment in Iraq that were vandalized with graffiti of gangs based in Chicago, Los Angeles and other cities".
Last month, the Sun-Times reported that a gang member facing federal charges of murder and robbery enlisted in the Marine Corps "while he was free on bond - and was preparing to ship out to boot camp when marine officials recently discovered he was under indictment".
While this particular recruit was eventually booted from the corps, a Milwaukee police detective and army veteran, who serves on the federal drug and gang task force that arrested the would-be marine, noted that other "gang-bangers are going over to Iraq and sending weapons back ... gang members are getting access to military training and weapons".
It was reported this year that an expected transfer of 10,000-20,000 troops to Fort Bliss, Texas, caused the Federal Bureau of Instigation and local law enforcement to fear "a turf war" between "members of the Folk Nation gang ... and a criminal group that is already well established in the area, Barrio Azteca". The New York Sun wrote that according to one FBI agent, "Folk Nation, which was founded in Chicago and includes several branches using the name Gangster Disciples, has gained a foothold in the army."
A generation later, as the ever less appetizing-looking wars in Iraq and Afghanistan spiral on without end, an overstretched US Army and Marine Corps have clearly become desperate. At a remarkable cost in dollars, effort and lowered standards, recruiting and retention numbers are being maintained for now.
The result: US ground forces are increasingly made up of a motley mix of under-age teens, old-timers, foreign fighters, gang-bangers, neo-Nazis, ex-cons, inferior officers and a host of near-mercenary troops, lured in or kept in uniform through big payouts and promises.
Unreal. Can you imagine how much damage those gang bangers can do once they get out o Iraq? With proper military training, they would be a seriously threat to the police.......
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(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b319/Mistah_Kurtz/ermey.jpg)
"God has a hard-on for Marines! Because we kill everything we see!"
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Can I please keep my M-82 sir? I might want to go hunting you know.
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Unreal. Can you imagine how much damage those gang bangers can do once they get out o Iraq? With proper military training, they would be a seriously threat to the police.......
Agreed. As if they weren't enough of a threat already. :ick:
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We had a situation here some years ago where a particularly violent rocker group had managed to get its hands on some shoulder-launched anti-tank rockets. Only thing that kept that from turning real ugly was that they didn't have anything remotely resembling a clue how to use them properly, and so they managed to do almost no damage at all. Clever as they were, the one they managed to use before getting landed on hard by the police, they used on a soft (as in, not armoured) target from a rival criminal gang... leaving a nice, round hole in on each side and otherwise exactly zero damage to anyone or anything, as there wasn't enough resistance on impact for the warhead's trigger mechanism to even register it.
But that was due to incompetence. I'd hate to think what a similarly violent group with actual military training might be able to pull off in a country where access to weapons is as comparatively easy as it is in the US. Could get real ugly :blah:
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But that was due to incompetence. I'd hate to think what a similarly violent group with actual military training might be able to pull off in a country where access to weapons is as comparatively easy as it is in the US. Could get real ugly :blah:
Were hoping that some blind patriots have guns too, so it will be patriots vs. gangs like gladiators except modern.
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So they're enlisting even criminals now? Sounds like we'll be able to see a real life ''Diryt Dozen'' or more likely dirty 12.000 the way they keep recruiting. :P
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God damn! It would seem that Iraq actually might destroy the US Army!
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America could probably get twice and results for half the money if they just returned to the time-tested practice of either bribing foreign governments into compliance, or financing local groups as de-facto mercenaries to fight and bleed on Uncle Sam's dime. America simply isn't vicious enough to win wars, not against anyone worth a damn. Most of the third world has been toughened by decades or centuries of hardship, so they have that crucial skill: the ability to take pain and keep fighting. In a way, America's (and the West's) technological and economic advantage has become their disadvantage. Because even the baddest of the bad, Special Forces and whatnot, are still soft and rely on a huge logistics trail to support them and a beaurocracy to organize them. The reliance on technology and organized command and all the other foundations of a modern military have given America the illusion that it can win wars without being exposed to the blood and dirt and filth and mayhem of warfare. Whereas the Afghans are used to it, having lived in nothing else for their whole lives.
I predict a slow (well, a decade or two) decline of American military power. Hell, if the world's only superpower can't win against a bunch of untrained, ill-equipped Iraqis who are moreover not united but split into two dozen rival factions, the era of military supremacy is over. Not just for America, but for everyone. Anything short of genocide is unlikely to bring victory in the future.
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Unreal. Can you imagine how much damage those gang bangers can do once they get out o Iraq? With proper military training, they would be a seriously threat to the police.......
Sure. They can pop off and get killed or thrown in Leavenworth Federal Penitentary for the rest of their lives. Forgive me for pointing out the blindingly obvious, but they've gotta behave for their stay in first.
Rictor, it's very clear to me you don't know what they're on about. The weaknesses are in no way inherent to the military. That is a base canard. I know people who've served tours in Iraq. The military is still as good at enduring hardship as it was at the time of WWII or the Civil War. Better, even. (With the probable exception of the Air Force; they have not had a serious threat to them in too long.) In the areas of killing stuff and breaking things they are vastly superior. The weakness is a weakness of the civilian governments who control the military. The military knows intimately that it will bleed when committed to the field. It's the public who doesn't believe it.
People complain of the military beaurocracy. Fine. Level the Pentagon and CentCom and you'll solve the problem. It does not exist in the field. The US military has spent decades perfecting their ability to make decisions rapidly when in the field. The problem is that we forgot one lesson of Vietnam; modern technology gives you the ability to play squad leader in the sky, but you should not, can not do that if you wish to be effective.
The technological edge is real and it works. You don't hear about IEDs anymore because they are no longer effective, because if there's one thing the US military can do, it's spend money on technological solutions to problems. Give them two years and they will do the research and deploy the technology to neutralize a threat.
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Anything short of genocide is unlikely to bring victory in the future.
In the future? That's about how it's always been if your foe is devoted to what they want to accomplish.
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Rictor, it's very clear to me you don't know what they're on about. The weaknesses are in no way inherent to the military. That is a base canard. I know people who've served tours in Iraq. The military is still as good at enduring hardship as it was at the time of WWII or the Civil War. Better, even. (With the probable exception of the Air Force; they have not had a serious threat to them in too long.) In the areas of killing stuff and breaking things they are vastly superior. The weakness is a weakness of the civilian governments who control the military. The military knows intimately that it will bleed when committed to the field. It's the public who doesn't believe it.
You misunderstood me. I'm not badmouthing the American military, it's surely the greatest military power currently in existance, I'm saying that the technological superiority, even great superiority (can't get much more uneven than US vs Iraqis) doesn't cut it any more. What is required is savagery, and the US doesn't have it. The poorer and more backwards you are, the more used to hardship you are. 3000 people died on 9/11, and the whole country went through shock. But when 3000 people die in Africa, the Africans don't even notice, that's how much of a non-event it is. The reason that the Afghans and Iraqis will win in the end is simply the ability to bleed, bleed, bleed and not care.
Not to be offensive, but if New York lived for one day the way that Baghdad has lived for years and will live for many more, people would be writing about it for decades to come, analyzing it, mourning over it. Trained soldiers getting shot at by an inferior foe is one thing, civilians living on the battlefield is quite another. America hasnt't had a war waged on its soil for more thana century. Simply put, you guys don't know how to suffer. Losing soldiers is not suffering. Flag-drapped coffins coming back to a heros funeral is not suffering. 200 nameless, unmourned, tortured bodies turning up a day, every day, with no end in sight, that suffering. And the Iraqis don't care, they have a thick enough skin to endure it for decades. There won't be any soul-searching or existentialism or despair, they'll just take everything you can dish out and keep fighting. Suffering and death and injustice are just part of life over yonder. The West can't take real suffering because we've lived in luxury and comfort for too long. Real, nasty suffering, either giving it or recieving it, is simply not within our ability at present.
In order to win against the kind of stubborn resistance that is present in much of the world, you would need nothing short of genocidal maniac. If some general ordered all American troops in Iraq to start shooting civilians on sight, burn every building, block off any rebel-held down and napalm the place, how many troops would even obey such an order? Not many. And it would be a day at most before the press starting dwarming over the place. No one, not even Russia or China, have the kind of carte blanche any more that is required t put down an insurgency. In the Chechen wars were to happen today, you can bet that there would be much more pressure on Russia from the likes of Amnesty and do-gooder MEPs to be humane and restrained. Governments don't have undisputed authority to do as they please anymore.
Mind you, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I think the world would be a better place if the West stayed out of everyone's business. And they have already lost, to a great degree, the ability to successfully interfere. So I cosider it a good thing. Even China I'm not too worried about. Just because they have a dictatorial government doesn't mean they're impervious to outside pressure or the "rules of the game". No one is going to tolerate real, bloody wars anymore (unless its Africans vs Africans, and that too is going slowly). Hell, they deserve it, all the world's Afghanistans and Iraqs, after they've bled so much to at least win themselves the freedom to be left the hell alone.
edit:The technological edge is real and it works. You don't hear about IEDs anymore because they are no longer effective, because if there's one thing the US military can do, it's spend money on technological solutions to problems. Give them two years and they will do the research and deploy the technology to neutralize a threat.
No, you don't hear about IEDs any more (though actually you do) becuase the Iraqis are too busy killing each other to even bother with the Americans anymore. If there's one thing that might save America from its stupidity, it's Iraqis' stupidity. They've probably split up, or at least get significant autonomy, before it's all over. So everyone wins except the Sunnis, who are stuck in the hot, dry center with no oil in sight.
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Am I the only one who sees a huge similarity between the US and the Roman Empire?
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Yep.
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Am I the only one who sees a huge similarity between the US and the Roman Empire?
If you replace "US" with "Busch" and "Roman Empire" with "Julius Ceaser", then no.
What America has done is, something like beating up a kid that looks very very suspicious, then helping him back up an trying to heal wounds, except the kid is now suicidal. I think :nervous:
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What a weird analogy :wtf:
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It appears very much like America is an empire in denial.
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Sure. They can pop off and get killed or thrown in Leavenworth Federal Penitentary for the rest of their lives. Forgive me for pointing out the blindingly obvious, but they've gotta behave for their stay in first
The smart ones will behave themselves WHILE IN THE MILITARY, but what about afterwards?
Rictor, it's very clear to me you don't know what they're on about. The weaknesses are in no way inherent to the military. That is a base canard. I know people who've served tours in Iraq. The military is still as good at enduring hardship as it was at the time of WWII or the Civil War.
The American military is also designed break when fighting an unjust war, like Vietnam. WW2 and the Civil War are not the same as Iraq today. It's starting to break now.......
The technological edge is real and it works
It does make a difference, but then again where did it get the Army in Vietnam? Nowhere........
You don't hear about IEDs anymore because they are no longer effective, because if there's one thing the US military can do, it's spend money.
F1x0r3d. The American military is quite good at spending money all right. :p
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Its not a wierd analogy, its history repeating itself. When the Roman Empire was in its last days, the people were too bent on pleasure seeking to care to defend it. The army was comprised of barbarians that had become part of the empire and mercenaries. When the hoards invaded Rome, there were few good soldiers to fight, and the army collapsed. Not to say that the US army will collapse, but I definitly think the US has reached the hight of its glory and is on the decline from within, not due to any president or government official.
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The way states are going more and more out on their own anymore, I wouldn't be surprised if they started to cecede from the union in a few years.
Of course, they wouldn't do this until they sapped the Federal government for all they've got.
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The states have always had the same amount of power they have today (for the most part). The thing is, because the President is such a dividing figure, it's encouraging individual states to take paths that agree with their mindset; i.e. more liberal states passing more liberal laws, etc. The thing is, the US mindset (and that of the world) has changed to view the United States as one whole country, much like Germany or China. In actuality, and by the Constitution, it is much more akin to a heavily united Republic.
The thing is, if the US federal government collapsed, the United States and it's culture would not necessarily do the same. Strong states such as New York, California and Texas would most likely be able to carry on individually.
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I doubt that it would be very beneficial for the states to become independent. And that would create a huge powerwacuum which China and/or Japan would rush to fill.
The US will decline a bit, no doubt about it. And that's a good thing. Had the US been going like it was, building power and becoming more influental, the rest of the world would have eventually turned against it. And that woiuld have been the end of US of A.
But US won't break apart. All it needs is for it's people to get their heads out of their asses take a look where their country is going to. I have faith that they will. Eventually.
Or the US will fall in to civil war. From which a new totalitarian dictatorship will arise. And that road leads to an new world war. So you see thatre is nor use to keep living this life anymore. Have a pleasant flight beyond the galactic rim.
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hey, we got through the 60's and 70's, we can easily get through this.
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We've been on the high end for a while now, it's time for us to go back into a dip.
It's a constant process. the U.S. won't just die, it will just lose alot of power for a while, which will likely be made up for by China and Europe.
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Am I the only one that sees that this has a good side aswell? Sure you will be letting in some gun crazy idiots. But on the other side, how much good would enlisting in the military would do. Put them thru boot camp, then deploy them to Iraq for a year or so. Sounds like it would do a pretty good job at staightening most of them out.
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Yeah, there's nothing like a little PTSD to help reconcile the undisciplined soul with their society.
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It is true, the Military does do some people in rough situations alot of good. I've heard of many people going through and coming out much better people.
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So if Iraq became a hellish warzone, in the end it'll be good for the US 'cause its straightening out their youth? :P
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That or it gets rid of the indigent scum. After all, the wealthy aren't on the front lines. "Gang bangers"
take it up the ass take it in the forehead first.
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the rich only start the war, the poor have to fight and pay for it
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the rich only start the war, the poor have to fight and pay for it
Well, here I am, anonymous all right. With guys nobody really cares about. They come from the end of the line, most of 'em. Small towns you never heard of: Pulaski, Tennessee; Brandon, Mississippi; Pork Van, Utah; Wampum, Pennsylvania. Two years' high school's about it, maybe if they're lucky a job waiting for them back at a factory, but most of 'em got nothing. They're poor, they're the unwanted, yet they're fighting for our society and our freedom. It's weird, isn't it? They're the bottom of the barrel and they know it. Maybe that's why they call themselves grunts, cause a grunt can take it, can take anything. They're the best I've ever seen, Grandma. The heart & soul.
Good movie, made a good point.
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the rich only start the war, the poor have to fight and pay for it
Well when you go for high-tech volunteer force that's pretty much what's going to happen.
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Its not a wierd analogy, its history repeating itself. When the Roman Empire was in its last days, the people were too bent on pleasure seeking to care to defend it. The army was comprised of barbarians that had become part of the empire and mercenaries. When the hoards invaded Rome, there were few good soldiers to fight, and the army collapsed. Not to say that the US army will collapse, but I definitly think the US has reached the hight of its glory and is on the decline from within, not due to any president or government official.
... but that's not how Rome collapsed!
They collapsed because they overextended, got stuck on internal fighting and let independent kingdoms to become a part of them. They effectively turned from central government to feudal style, because it was cheaper and more efficient. There wasn't a "Barbarian invasion", there was "Barbarian immigration" and "oh **** it we didn't need Thracia anyways" and "well I need help against this dude, how about is call those Goths to help me and let them live inside my borders without adhering to our rules oh ****"