Author Topic: So what's happening to the US military?  (Read 3848 times)

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Offline Kosh

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So what's happening to the US military?
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/HI16Aa03.html

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11. Gang warfare
According to the Chicago Sun-Times, law-enforcement officials report that the military is now "allowing more applicants with gang tattoos because they are under the gun to keep enlistment up". They also note that "gang activity may be rising among soldiers". The paper was provided with "photos of military buildings and equipment in Iraq that were vandalized with graffiti of gangs based in Chicago, Los Angeles and other cities".

Last month, the Sun-Times reported that a gang member facing federal charges of murder and robbery enlisted in the Marine Corps "while he was free on bond - and was preparing to ship out to boot camp when marine officials recently discovered he was under indictment".

While this particular recruit was eventually booted from the corps, a Milwaukee police detective and army veteran, who serves on the federal drug and gang task force that arrested the would-be marine, noted that other "gang-bangers are going over to Iraq and sending weapons back ... gang members are getting access to military training and weapons".

It was reported this year that an expected transfer of 10,000-20,000 troops to Fort Bliss, Texas, caused the Federal Bureau of Instigation and local law enforcement to fear "a turf war" between "members of the Folk Nation gang ... and a criminal group that is already well established in the area, Barrio Azteca". The New York Sun wrote that according to one FBI agent, "Folk Nation, which was founded in Chicago and includes several branches using the name Gangster Disciples, has gained a foothold in the army."


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A generation later, as the ever less appetizing-looking wars in Iraq and Afghanistan spiral on without end, an overstretched US Army and Marine Corps have clearly become desperate. At a remarkable cost in dollars, effort and lowered standards, recruiting and retention numbers are being maintained for now.

The result: US ground forces are increasingly made up of a motley mix of under-age teens, old-timers, foreign fighters, gang-bangers, neo-Nazis, ex-cons, inferior officers and a host of near-mercenary troops, lured in or kept in uniform through big payouts and promises.



Unreal. Can you imagine how much damage those gang bangers can do once they get out o Iraq? With proper military training, they would be a seriously threat to the police.......
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Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?


"God has a hard-on for Marines! Because we kill everything we see!"
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Offline Mars

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
Can I please keep my M-82 sir? I might want to go hunting you know.

 
Re: So what's happening to the US military?
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Unreal. Can you imagine how much damage those gang bangers can do once they get out o Iraq? With proper military training, they would be a seriously threat to the police.......

Agreed. As if they weren't enough of a threat already.  :ick:
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Offline Shade

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
We had a situation here some years ago where a particularly violent rocker group had managed to get its hands on some shoulder-launched anti-tank rockets. Only thing that kept that from turning real ugly was that they didn't have anything remotely resembling a clue how to use them properly, and so they managed to do almost no damage at all. Clever as they were, the one they managed to use before getting landed on hard by the police, they used on a soft (as in, not armoured) target from a rival criminal gang... leaving a nice, round hole in on each side and otherwise exactly zero damage to anyone or anything, as there wasn't enough resistance on impact for the warhead's trigger mechanism to even register it.

But that was due to incompetence. I'd hate to think what a similarly violent group with actual military training might be able to pull off in a country where access to weapons is as comparatively easy as it is in the US. Could get real ugly :blah:
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
But that was due to incompetence. I'd hate to think what a similarly violent group with actual military training might be able to pull off in a country where access to weapons is as comparatively easy as it is in the US. Could get real ugly :blah:

Were hoping that some blind patriots have guns too, so it will be patriots vs. gangs like gladiators except modern.

 

Offline Sarafan

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
So they're enlisting even criminals now? Sounds like we'll be able to see a real life ''Diryt Dozen'' or more likely dirty 12.000 the way they keep recruiting. :P

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
God damn! It would seem that Iraq actually might destroy the US Army!

 

Offline Rictor

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
America could probably get twice and results for half the money if they just returned to the time-tested practice of either bribing foreign governments into compliance, or financing local groups as de-facto mercenaries to fight and bleed on Uncle Sam's dime. America simply isn't vicious enough to win wars, not against anyone worth a damn. Most of the third world has been toughened by decades or centuries of hardship, so they have that crucial skill: the ability to take pain and keep fighting. In a way, America's (and the West's) technological and economic advantage has become their disadvantage. Because even the baddest of the bad, Special Forces and whatnot, are still soft and rely on a huge logistics trail to support them and a beaurocracy to organize them. The reliance on technology and organized command and all the other foundations of a modern military have given America the illusion that it can win wars without being exposed to the blood and dirt and filth and mayhem of warfare. Whereas the Afghans are used to it, having lived in nothing else for their whole lives.

I predict a slow (well, a decade or two) decline of American military power. Hell, if the world's only superpower can't win against a bunch of untrained, ill-equipped Iraqis who are moreover not united but split into two dozen rival factions, the era of military supremacy is over. Not just for America, but for everyone. Anything short of genocide is unlikely to bring victory in the future.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
Unreal. Can you imagine how much damage those gang bangers can do once they get out o Iraq? With proper military training, they would be a seriously threat to the police.......

Sure. They can pop off and get killed or thrown in Leavenworth Federal Penitentary for the rest of their lives. Forgive me for pointing out the blindingly obvious, but they've gotta behave for their stay in first.

Rictor, it's very clear to me you don't know what they're on about. The weaknesses are in no way inherent to the military. That is a base canard. I know people who've served tours in Iraq. The military is still as good at enduring hardship as it was at the time of WWII or the Civil War. Better, even. (With the probable exception of the Air Force; they have not had a serious threat to them in too long.) In the areas of killing stuff and breaking things they are vastly superior. The weakness is a weakness of the civilian governments who control the military. The military knows intimately that it will bleed when committed to the field. It's the public who doesn't believe it.

People complain of the military beaurocracy. Fine. Level the Pentagon and CentCom and you'll solve the problem. It does not exist in the field. The US military has spent decades perfecting their ability to make decisions rapidly when in the field. The problem is that we forgot one lesson of Vietnam; modern technology gives you the ability to play squad leader in the sky, but you should not, can not do that if you wish to be effective.

The technological edge is real and it works. You don't hear about IEDs anymore because they are no longer effective, because if there's one thing the US military can do, it's spend money on technological solutions to problems. Give them two years and they will do the research and deploy the technology to neutralize a threat.
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Offline achtung

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
Anything short of genocide is unlikely to bring victory in the future.
In the future?  That's about how it's always been if your foe is devoted to what they want to accomplish.
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Offline Rictor

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
Rictor, it's very clear to me you don't know what they're on about. The weaknesses are in no way inherent to the military. That is a base canard. I know people who've served tours in Iraq. The military is still as good at enduring hardship as it was at the time of WWII or the Civil War. Better, even. (With the probable exception of the Air Force; they have not had a serious threat to them in too long.) In the areas of killing stuff and breaking things they are vastly superior. The weakness is a weakness of the civilian governments who control the military. The military knows intimately that it will bleed when committed to the field. It's the public who doesn't believe it.

You misunderstood me. I'm not badmouthing the American military, it's surely the greatest military power currently in existance, I'm saying that the technological superiority, even great superiority (can't get much more uneven than US vs Iraqis) doesn't cut it any more. What is required is savagery, and the US doesn't have it. The poorer and more backwards you are, the more used to hardship you are. 3000 people died on 9/11, and the whole country went through shock. But when 3000 people die in Africa, the Africans don't even notice, that's how much of a non-event it is. The reason that the Afghans and Iraqis will win in the end is simply the ability to bleed, bleed, bleed and not care.

Not to be offensive, but if New York lived for one day the way that Baghdad has lived for years and will live for many more, people would be writing about it for decades to come, analyzing it, mourning over it. Trained soldiers getting shot at by an inferior foe is one thing, civilians living on the battlefield is quite another. America hasnt't had a war waged on its soil for more thana  century. Simply put, you guys don't know how to suffer. Losing soldiers is not suffering. Flag-drapped coffins coming back to a heros funeral is not suffering. 200 nameless, unmourned, tortured bodies turning up a day, every day, with no end in sight, that suffering. And the Iraqis don't care, they have a thick enough skin to endure it for decades. There won't be any soul-searching or existentialism or despair, they'll just take everything you can dish out and keep fighting. Suffering and death and injustice are just part of life over yonder. The West can't take real suffering because we've lived in luxury and comfort for too long. Real, nasty suffering, either giving it or recieving it, is simply not within our ability at present.

In order to win against the kind of stubborn resistance that is present in much of the world, you would need nothing short of genocidal maniac. If some general ordered all American troops in Iraq to start shooting civilians on sight, burn every building, block off any rebel-held down and napalm the place, how many troops would even obey such an order? Not many. And it would be a day at most before the press starting dwarming over the place. No one, not even Russia or China, have the kind of carte blanche any more that is required t put down an insurgency. In the Chechen wars were to happen today, you can bet that there would be much more pressure on Russia from the likes of Amnesty and do-gooder MEPs to be humane and restrained.  Governments don't have undisputed authority to do as they please anymore.

Mind you, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I think the world would be a better place if the West stayed out of everyone's business. And they have already lost, to a great degree, the ability to successfully interfere. So I cosider it a good thing. Even China I'm not too worried about. Just because they have a dictatorial government doesn't mean they're impervious to outside pressure or the "rules of the game". No one is going to tolerate real, bloody wars anymore (unless its Africans vs Africans, and that too is going slowly).  Hell, they deserve it, all the world's Afghanistans and Iraqs, after they've bled so much to at least win themselves the freedom to be left the hell alone.

edit:
The technological edge is real and it works. You don't hear about IEDs anymore because they are no longer effective, because if there's one thing the US military can do, it's spend money on technological solutions to problems. Give them two years and they will do the research and deploy the technology to neutralize a threat.
No, you don't hear about IEDs any more (though actually you do) becuase the Iraqis are too busy killing each other to even bother with the Americans anymore. If there's one thing that might save America from its stupidity, it's Iraqis' stupidity. They've probably split up, or at least get significant autonomy, before it's all over. So everyone wins except the Sunnis, who are stuck in the hot, dry center with no oil in sight.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2006, 01:08:30 am by Rictor »

 

Offline DeepSpace9er

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
Am I the only one who sees a huge similarity between the US and the Roman Empire?

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
Yep.

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
Am I the only one who sees a huge similarity between the US and the Roman Empire?

If you replace "US" with "Busch" and "Roman Empire" with "Julius Ceaser", then no.


What America has done is, something like beating up a kid that looks very very suspicious, then helping him back up an trying to heal wounds, except the kid is now suicidal. I think :nervous:

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
What a weird analogy  :wtf:

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
It appears very much like America is an empire in denial.

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
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Sure. They can pop off and get killed or thrown in Leavenworth Federal Penitentary for the rest of their lives. Forgive me for pointing out the blindingly obvious, but they've gotta behave for their stay in first


The smart ones will behave themselves WHILE IN THE MILITARY, but what about afterwards?


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Rictor, it's very clear to me you don't know what they're on about. The weaknesses are in no way inherent to the military. That is a base canard. I know people who've served tours in Iraq. The military is still as good at enduring hardship as it was at the time of WWII or the Civil War.

The American military is also designed break when fighting an unjust war, like Vietnam. WW2 and the Civil War are not the same as Iraq today. It's starting to break now.......


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The technological edge is real and it works


It does make a difference, but then again where did it get the Army in Vietnam? Nowhere........


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You don't hear about IEDs anymore because they are no longer effective, because if there's one thing the US military can do, it's spend money.


F1x0r3d. The American military is quite good at spending money all right. :p


"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline DeepSpace9er

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
Its not a wierd analogy, its history repeating itself. When the Roman Empire was in its last days, the people were too bent on pleasure seeking to care to defend it. The army was comprised of barbarians that had become part of the empire and mercenaries. When the hoards invaded Rome, there were few good soldiers to fight, and the army collapsed. Not to say that the US army will collapse, but I definitly think the US has reached the hight of its glory and is on the decline from within, not due to any president or government official.

 

Offline achtung

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Re: So what's happening to the US military?
The way states are going more and more out on their own anymore, I wouldn't be surprised if they started to cecede from the union in a few years.

Of course, they wouldn't do this until they sapped the Federal government for all they've got.
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