Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on September 22, 2006, 11:42:43 am
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I cannot believe nobody's posted about this yet. Y'all are slipping. :p
The Pope quoted some emperor from the 14th century or some such basically saying that Islam is a violent religion. In response, Muslims all over got pissed and started rioting and murdering people - a nun and 2 Christians so far. The nun, by the way, is quoted as having said "Father forgive them" with her dying breath.
So yeah, Islam is called a violent religion, so Muslims go out and protest against the incident - violently. Why am I not surprised?
{cue the liberal attempts at "defense" of the Muslim reactions}
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I think there's a whole topic somewhere you must have missed.
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Well, there ARE sane Muslims out there and I'm fairly sure they'd never do anything like that. I've known a few. You only hear about the idiots on the news cause they're the only ones worth talking about in the news. :P
And speaking of the idiots in the Muslim community (which unfortunately is a damn lot of them it seems) if they don't want to be viewed as violent, they should really stop...BEING VIOLENT and rioting at the drop of a hat.
Sidenote: The Pope is a retard. :P The muslims have a right to be pissed at him, but there are better ways to react than rioting. *looking at the idiots, not the decent ones*
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If only we got rid of all the Muslims in the world! Then the violence would magically vanish!
Oh we can dream though, we can dream.
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I think there's a whole topic somewhere you must have missed.
I would have thought so, but I did a search in the Hard Light forum, past 30 days, for any instances of the word "pope" - zilch. :shrug:
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Parp. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,42359.0.html)
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If only we got rid of all the Muslims in the world! Then the violence would magically vanish!
Oh we can dream though, we can dream.
replace "Muslims" with "Religious people and politicians" and i'll agree
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I'm reluctantly becoming more and more convinced that it is a violent religion. Although thats still tempered by my belief that a large percentage of any culture/race/religion would be driven to violence by the situation they're faced with. I mean someone same age as me (25) in palestine, how likely is it they'd have had schooling as far as college, be able to have a well paid job (although I wouldn't say mine is) be able to go traveling at a whim, and basically have nearly any options for the future open to them? With no hope of change, who can say what you'd do.
I do accept that that situation is to a big degree because of the society that they have constructed, religious beliefs, as well as violence committed previously. That would be why its a vicious circle. But still..
Back to the point at hand. It's depressing to see that this speech, which by all accounts was as pro-Islam as could be, has been hijacked by those who do know better and the ignorant masses. There's been one or two Irish born Muslims on the radio here and man they made me angry. Nearly as angry as that stinking conversative american radio host, and only less so because they were at least polite. But they've gone on about Sharia (?) law and essentially stated several times that any apologies by the Pope are pointless and anyone who follows sharia law would be within its rights (in their mind) to assassinate him. I mean its uncomprehendibly rediculous.What are they trying to do? Apart from the fact that I think they should be arrested for incitement to murder, they're actively helping position the entire western world against Islam. Ireland would have been up till now largely sympathetic to the Islamic point of view, and it's yet to be seen how that will change but just on this topic people are fairly indignant about it. (I'm sure the world waits with baited breath to see how we go from here).
And its not a completely religious issue. Among my agegroup and maybe up to 30-35, like myself, people are no long heavily religious here. I would actually say I've an issue with the Catholic church for the social damage it's done to my country in the past, despite the fact that it has numerous beneficial effects. It's just the complete ludicrousness of the issue. Absolute law, especially religious absolute law, has no place in modern society. They're just not compatible. It just seems to me that a conflict (moreso than whats already happening) is building up. It's been bubbling for a long time but it finally seems to be starting to accelerate.
I don't like where it's headed. Genocide is being uttered alot more often even if it is still just by fanatics on both sides.
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Islamic fundamentalism is the symptom, not the disease.
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If someone kills the Pope another Cusade will begin...and I will volunteer. :D
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If somone kills the pope I think the world will probably have another big war on it's hands.
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Islam is unique among religions because it condones war. However, war is only acceptable to them if it is to either defend themselves, defend their beliefs, or defend their allies and friends. The version of Islam practiced by terrorists is a distortion of the real religion. The Koran specifically bans suicide attacks. Unfortunately, the more extreme elements of the religion seem to be very skilled at manipulating the masses. This is what causes riots and gives most Muslims a bad name. A friend of mine is Muslim, and he's just as normal as any of us.
That said, the Pope never should have said what he did. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would know that's the way to get a lot of people very angry very quickly. It's the equivalent of me walking up to you and insulting the thing or person most important to you. You will get angry with me. But you throw in mob mentality and a small number of armed fanatics, you have recipe for disaster.
And in case you are wondering, I'm not a Muslim. I just don't like seeing people getting the short end of the stick.
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{cue the liberal attempts at "defense" of the Muslim reactions}
Oh sandwich for goodness sake give it a rest. Ooh, the big bad liberals who actually give a **** about other people eh? There is no real "liberal" defence of the reaction; There is however a very clear example of how Islam is a developing culture very much like Christianity was hundred/two-hundred years ago. We just have to hope we can stem the tide of morons attacking us in the name of that culture until it, as a whole, evolves.
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the funny thing about evolution is you can never tell what it's going to evolve into or how long it's going to take. it might evolve into an empire of conquest. you can't excuse people because they might some day be saine, you must make your determination based on how they are now, and now they are a bunch of violent thugs.
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The Islamic people are some of the most violent religious fanatics of this century, and the one previous. However, they are a lot like the Christians of old. The Christians of the 15th century went on the Crusades believing that they were doing good for their God. Though I do not condone their actions, the Islams are just.......ignorant. The 9/11 attacks are proof of that. So, I ask you this: if they ARE a threat to the world, do they need to be removed? or just pacified?
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the funny thing about evolution is you can never tell what it's going to evolve into or how long it's going to take. it might evolve into an empire of conquest. you can't excuse people because they might some day be saine, you must make your determination based on how they are now, and now they are a bunch of violent thugs.
I'm not excusing their actions, I'm simply stating a reason why they choose to take those actions.
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The Islamic people are some of the most violent religious fanatics of this century, and the one previous.
Way to label all Islam religious fanatics. Yea, can't understand why they'd be upset about that.
Though I do not condone their actions, the Islams are just.......ignorant. The 9/11 attacks are proof of that. So, I ask you this: if they ARE a threat to the world, do they need to be removed? or just pacified?
Again with the lumping together, like all of Islam had a meeting.
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like were all ****ing morons who groupe all humans into the catagories wich accurately describe the masses, quit with the sesime street, not all $GROUP are the same, bull****, yeah we know, lets get on with the actual point. please.
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Sometimes I seriously wonder though.
A. Muslims are not all violent. Islam is not a violent religion, any moreso than any other.
B. The world has religious fanatics.
C. When the leader of a group makes sweeping generalities about another group, someone somewhere is bound to get pissed and probably violent.
D. There were well over 1 billion muslims last time I checked.
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I think there's a whole topic somewhere you must have missed.
I would have thought so, but I did a search in the Hard Light forum, past 30 days, for any instances of the word "pope" - zilch. :shrug:
What the hell are you talking about? You were the third bloody person to post in the last topic!
I like how they threaten lives in protest to their basically being called a violent religion. Yeah. That's totally logical, Spock.
Something fishy is afoot.
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News Flash: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060922/ap_on_re_eu/pope_muslims_9
The Pope is on talking terms with the Muslims...........how sweeeeet! :confused:
I hate to be so typical american but here goes:
Muslim= :headz:
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Muslim= :headz:
Would you mind not trolling, please?
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Yes, I mind
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How many times has someone called Islam "violent" and then Muslims in the Mid-East gotten (more) violent and killed (more) people?
@Spartan: That is actually pretty rude to non-radical Muslims. It's generalizations like that that get people angry. For example, remember when I got PO'd at Kara for calling Americans idiots?
Wow. If the USA had one majority race, I'd call it racisim. But we don't, so I won't. But I am getting a tad pissed of at people calling the general populace of America idiots...
Thats what I thought.
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A. Muslims are not all violent. Islam is not a violent religion, any moreso than any other.
Uh, you might want to check your facts again there. Since as I've pointed out before Islam is the only major religion that is accepting of offensive warfare, blood feud, and other forms of violence.
Mohammed fought the first jihad. Don't tell me it's not violent moreso then any other, you don't know what you're on about.
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How many times has someone called Islam "violent" and then Muslims in the Mid-East gotten (more) violent and killed (more) people?
Notice how I said Middle East, Middle East alone, and Middle East specificly.
What exactly do you mean by that? Protesting is actually rather widespread across Muslim countires. For example, several Roman Catholic militants were killed in Indonesia a few days ago, which most definintely contributed to the Pope hosting talks.
Anyway, you will find that the Middle-East is a centre of muslim violence namely because the muslims in that region feel the most persecuted in the modern age, and are thus far more easily swayed into violence by fanatics and extremists than, say, a muslim family living in Anytown, USA.
@Spartan: That is actually very rude to the non-radical Muslims. For example, remember when I got pissed at Kara for calling almost all Americans idiots a couple days ago?
Exactly, the only blanket statement that holds any smidgin of accuracy is saying that all people that make blanket statements like the ones we've seen in this [and previous] threads are utterly juvenile, incredibly ill-informed and downright mentally deficient.
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Grouping and stereotyping is a human trait. We can't help it. Some of us try not to succumb to it. Most people just can't be bothered. It's not a good thing, or a bad thing, but just a thing that our brains do to make information processing easier.
I was born Muslim. I've spent most of my life around Muslims. Many of my closest friends are Muslim (although most of them are not).
So, according to some people in this board, my friends and I are AK-47 wielding violent jihadists who kill nuns, missionaries and make baby Jesus cry.
According to other people in this board, Americans are imperialist, gun-crazy, trigger-happy cowboys who bomb and invade countries whenever it suits them.
****ing accept it. Get your heads out of the asses of the media for a minute. Take a step back for just a little while, and try to broaden your view of the world beyond what your society is telling you.
Not only will you offend less people that way, but you won't have any need to get so defensive.
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so... who called you and your freands fundimintalist nut jobs?
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Uh, you might want to check your facts again there. Since as I've pointed out before Islam is the only major religion that is accepting of offensive warfare, blood feud, and other forms of violence.
Mohammed fought the first jihad. Don't tell me it's not violent moreso then any other, you don't know what you're on about.
No. But we've done this. :(
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I think we are just running in circles by pointing at religions and accusing them as the cause of these problems.
The darwinian ways of combating brought us this far, but they don't work at all when the size of the population in one (the global human society).
it is kind of looking at symptoms of an organism having an autoimmune disease - seeing itself as a baddie and attacking.
And I think this is sort of fitting analogy too; if people would actually know what they are doing and why, most of this s**t wouldn't be happening.
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Sure if you got rid of religion some people would find other reasons to be violent because basically that's what they want to do. On the other hand other people who would have been quite normal if not for religious indoctrination will simply remain... normal. Now how can that be a bad thing? Religion. You know it's a bad idea.
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Sure if you got rid of religion some people would find other reasons to be violent because basically that's what they want to do. On the other hand other people who would have been quite normal if not for religious indoctrination will simply remain... normal. Now how can that be a bad thing? Religion. You know it's a bad idea.
WELL DONE! :nod:
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Click here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,42311.msg867137.html#msg867137) for a helpful quote from the Koran. While you're at it, read the whole thread. It gets quite interesting.
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All undue respect to people who whine about stereotyping...grow up, will you? I am not spouting unsubstantiated kneejerk bull****. I've actually spent some time to study this. I have a small library of books by international authorities on the subject. After consulting all available evidence, the conclusion comes forth that Islam is more accepting of violence then other major religions. This makes it more easily turned to violent radicalism.
So, Darius, Mefustae, pack up your damn straw men and get the hell out of town, or bother to actually argue.
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Click here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,42311.msg867137.html#msg867137) to see me get owned.
Corrected. :p
So, Darius, Mefustae, pack up your damn straw men and get the hell out of town, or bother to actually argue.
Excuse me? I voice my objection to unfair stereotyping, and suddenly my arguments are fallacious and I should leave town? We have a saying where I come from; get stuffed. :doubt:
Anyway, you'll find that I don't disagree at all in saying that Islam is far more easily radicalised by fanatics, as has been demonstrated by current events. I only disagree with morons who lump all muslims into their arguements when they say 'Islam is a violent religion, it should be abolished!!', which is a belief that more than a few on this board have expressed.
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****ing accept it. Get your heads out of the asses of the media for a minute. Take a step back for just a little while, and try to broaden your view of the world beyond what your society is telling you.
It is not just what "our society" is telling us though. How sbout those violent reactions to cartoons in an obscure Danish newspapers? The death threats made to prominent people in the islamic community who refuse to go along with the fundamentalist non-sense (like a former dutch minister, I can't remember her name though). The problem is that we see sooo much of this, and we are getting tired of it.
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I only disagree with morons who lump all muslims into their arguements when they say 'Islam is a violent religion, it should be abolished!!
Indeed. For the last several millennia, fanatics and megalomaniacs have used religion as a way to justify their actions, and Islam simply happens to be the hot pick these days. 400 and 1100 years ago it was Christianity, 3200 years ago it was the greek gods supposedly spawning a massive war. A thousand years from now our decendants may see hinduism in the same role.
Religion is simply an easy excuse since a lot of religious texts are wide open to whatever interpretation you want. If it didn't exist, those people would have to use something else to justify their actions, but they would still be killing as they do now.
As for the whole cartoon row, it had exactly nothing at all to do with religion after the initial apologies had been exchanged (which happened months before it erupted in the international media). It had to do with internal politics in the affected countries, mostly politicians in weakened positions seeing it as a chance to shore it up by doing something that would get TV time and grab the public's attention, and then others following suit when it seemed to become a general trend. You know, to not look like they were twiddling their thumbs and all. All politics, no religion, which was once again simply the excuse those people used to justify their actions.
And if it actually had been a religious issue, you'd think it might actually have affected Denmark more directly, given the 100.000 or so muslims that live here (the largest minority). But it didn't. There were no riots, no deaths, not even any minor bruises. No burned churches, no demonstrations in front of either parliament or any of the several mosques in the country. Because there was no political gain to be had from it, and the religious part had been solved long ago by the time it all erupted. Finally, it might also be mentioned that the reason it all erupted in the first place was that some emigrated Imams decided to use it as a way to gain more political leverage in their countries of origin. With no success, I might add.
The stuff that's happening now with the pope is essentially the exact same thing. There was no religious offence in what he said at all, actually. It's just being spun that way for political gain.
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Cultural conditioning (http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/anthropology/courses/122/module1/history.html).
(http://www.teachkidspeace.org/worldimages/child-soldier.gif)
When you have this going on, it doesn't make much difference whether you are using the Koran or some of the Harry Potter novels.
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As for the whole cartoon row, it had exactly nothing at all to do with religion after the initial apologies had been exchanged
By which point they'd already gone too far. At some point the followers of Islam and Scientology seem to have got it into their heads that they have a "god given" right to deny people their freedom of speech when it suits. Let's not be under any illusions here. Demanding apologies over a cartoon is already pretty extreme.
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They didn't "demand" them. It was all quite civil back here, it was only in the middle east it blew up. I do agree about religion in general not exactly being for free speech - But it's not just those two you mentioned, christianity is just as guilty.
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What the hell are you talking about? You were the third bloody person to post in the last topic!
Yeah, I saw that. I thought I had a vague feeling of deja vu while posting this topic, but I couldn't pin it down. Oh well. Perhaps I'm loosing my mind. Or memory.
...what was I talking about again?
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Oh well. Perhaps I'm loosing my mind.
Yeah, don't you hate it when your mind starts getting loose. :p
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I've always heard it said that he or she has got a few screws loose, but I never drew the connection until now! Kewl.
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Pope to meet Muslims.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5376556.stm
The pope is going to kick ass. :yes:
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Pope to meet Muslims.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5376556.stm
The pope is going to kiss ass. :yes:
Corrected.
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Nah the new pope is religion's answer to Prince Philip. He'll set out wanting to kiss ass but just end up putting his foot in it and making things worse. Mark my words.
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So are they going to search these guys? If not I'd listen carefully for God is Great halfway through the meeting... :nervous:
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I thought that :). Although it would be the most obviously predictable assassination of all time.
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I was actually thinking that the Pope would serve them all a big cake, and when it was brought in, he would stand up and say, "Now my plan is complete!" and guys would pop out of the cake with machine guns and waste all the Muslim leaders.
And the music would ominously switch to a minor key.
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This pope doesn't need "guys". I'm sure he's perfectly able to handle a machine gun on his own.
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the pope's an idiot
the muslims are idiots
hell.. religion is idiotic
do i really need to say more?
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Yes, Kazan. You should say more. You have remained silent far too long on topical issues of ontology, theology, and contemporary ethics. Please, don't be afraid to contribute your thoughts.
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the pope's an idiot
the muslims are idiots
hell.. religion is idiotic
do i really need to say more?
I partly agree with the last one.
Religion has a positive site. I can really help you tp believe in god. Knowing there is someone who cares abnout you and listens to your problems, is great. So religion has a sense even if there never was a god.
On the other hand religion is to blame for an uncountable number of deaths, for hate, for abuse, and for lies.
I think we might be better off without it, even though I fully respect people who believe in god.
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Religion is as positive and negative as humanity is itself. I don't think there's any point in deluding ourselves that one religion has more or less capacity for inspiring good and evil than another - the only difference is perhaps the nature of good and evil perpetuated by followers.
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Yes, Kazan. You should say more. You have remained silent far too long on topical issues of ontology, theology, and contemporary ethics. Please, don't be afraid to contribute your thoughts.
Awarded. One gold star for exceptional sarcasm.
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On the other hand religion is to blame for an uncountable number of deaths, for hate, for abuse, and for lies.
I think we might be better off without it, even though I fully respect people who believe in god.
Actually, you'll find that in most cases, Religion is merely the scapegoat used to justify death, hate, abuse and lies. Sure, removing religion would deprive humanity of one of the best reasons to kill, but we're a resourceful species, so we'll quickly find another way to justify what we do best. :)
Anyway, I forsee that when the meeting is held, every party present will pull pistols on each other, and the Pope'll say "looks like we got us a Mexican stand-off, 'cept we ain't got no Mexicans". That'd be so awesome.
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People are still trapped in the paradigm that says religion is something we "invented" that can simply be abolished, and I don't think it's that simple. Religion is a convergence of numerous human tendencies, and it's not just a cultural construct; it's a biological, evolutionary phenomenon. I think our time would be better spent trying to get people to think philosophically about their religions, instead of fooling ourselves into thinking we can eradicate the entire concept. But maybe that's almost as hopeless.
Anyway, I forsee that when the meeting is held, every party present will pull pistols on each other, and the Pope'll say "looks like we got us a Mexican stand-off, 'cept we ain't got no Mexicans". That'd be so awesome.
I don't think anyone can disagree on this point. That would be awesome.
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Even in the (my) man-created-god camp, man still created god for a reason..... you can no more hope to abolish religion and belief than you can for hate, love, or any other part of human nature.
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Sidenote: The Pope is a retard. :P The muslims have a right to be pissed at him, but there are better ways to react than rioting. *looking at the idiots, not the decent ones*
sidenote: Read his whole speech. You're a retard my little man.....
You know what the sad thing is? 99% of the people who now speak against the Pope becouse of this havn't even read his speach....
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I agree(another thing in common with TM!!!)
Why you ignore this matter?What would happen if those **** kill Benedetto XVI?I volunteer for the Crusade.
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You could throw your sig at them, it's big enough.
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does someone have a link to this speach?
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I asked pretty much the same thing in the last thread about this, and mine was the last post in the thread.
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heh
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I asked pretty much the same thing in the last thread about this, and mine was the last post in the thread.
So you mean most people in this thread haven't even read the speech and they're making all these statements about the relevance of religion off of it? :lol:
I know my opinion isn't worth **** because I don't know enough about it
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well, my opionion is bassed on two things, the fact that I know what happened with the whole cartoon thing, and the fact that there is nothing that one person can say that can justify rioting and killing random people losely assosiated with that person.
I am somewhat hesitent to pass judgement on the pope however as I have not seen the speach, but I am currently opperateing on the assumption that it's no 'worse' than the cartoons. but that is an assumption wich may be totaly wrong.
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Why you ignore this matter?What would happen if those **** kill Benedetto XVI?I volunteer for the Crusade.
Aha, the voice of good-ole-fashioned Christian tolerance strikes again!
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No it's a great idea. Set the Christians against the Muslims and let them wipe one another out whilst we sit around and watch, eating popcorn and taking bets.
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No it's a great idea. Set the Christians against the Muslims and let them wipe one another out whilst we sit around and watch, eating popcorn and taking bets.
I'll put a fiver on a surprise late run by the Zoroastrians, then.
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I think Rastafairinism (?) should become the new world wide religion :nod: That way we can all sit around smoking pot all day, then no-one would be arsed to start a fight never mind a war! :lol:
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I'll put a fiver on a surprise late run by the Zoroastrians, then.
Do Zoroastrians worship Zorro or something?
I think Rastafairinism (?) should become the new world wide religion :nod: That way we can all sit around smoking pot all day, then no-one would be arsed to start a fight never mind a war! :lol:
You obviously know absolutely nothing about the Rastafari movement, and I take offense to your unfair stereotype. Ganja is spiritual, sacred, and should not be mocked by those who lack true understanding.
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does someone have a link to this speach?
It's ok if in Italian? :D
Zarathustra....never read that book by Nietzche?
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You obviously know absolutely nothing about the Rastafari movement, and I take offense to your unfair stereotype. Ganja is spiritual, sacred, and should not be mocked by those who lack true understanding.
Jeeez, it was a joke man! Don't get so hot under the collar! ::)
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For those who asked (and those who didn't):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_09_06_pope.pdf (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_09_06_pope.pdf)
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I know it comes from the Libreria Editrice Vaticana,but I notice some differences between the English text and what I listened. Nothing big,however.
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Only an idot could be offended by his speech.. I'ts about as pro-islam as it gets..
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It's not pro-Islam. Islam has nothing to do with this speech. So yes, a Muslim who is offended by this speech is most likely an impressionable idiot who has been fed meaningless sound bytes.
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Derka, derka. Mohammed Jihad.
Sorry but I was watching Team America again last night :D.