Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: Descenter on September 25, 2006, 08:45:05 pm
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Take this model, clean it up a little, and put a default texture, (or make up textures for it as long as I get the finished product), to this ship? I made it in Google SketchUp, got it converted to 3ds max format, but I don't have 3Ds Max of any type to make it cleaner, or add the textures to it. If someone could do this for me, I would greatly appreciate it.
Here's the files: http://www.geocities.com/deacenter6/MyUntitledShip.zip (http://www.geocities.com/deacenter6/MyUntitledShip.zip)
Includes model, and what it should look like in the end.
One last note if for some reason someone chooses to use this model, just credit me for making it.
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7zip doesn't like your .zip file. try making it again.
Normally I'm busy with my own stuff, but I'll consider doing this because it's such a small job.
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Winrar doesn't like it either.
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WinZip 8.1 was able to pull the model and some of the screenshots out, so here's just the model.
Wayyy too many polies on it for what it is. The upper wing-ish structure needs to be more than just a single plane thick. I could subtract a cube in trueSpace 6.6 and get rid of all the triangulation on perfectly flat faces, but that broke it by making it non-solid, and flipped most of the normals backwards. (Could be a run through a converter like Polytrans would take acre of these problems.)
Those round barreled gun/launcher things are where a lot of the excess polygons reside. Also, they look like they're aimed at the bridge! :eek: If they're meant to be turrets, they need to be completely seperate objects.
A nice overall design but needs some more work, especially some rethink in the weaponry areas. ;)
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i opened this up in max just now and i can tell you one thing:
all those weapons have got to go. right now.
either you remake them in sketch-up with all the normals correct and see if it converts okay, or you go download Truespace and redo the weapons in the Worst Modelling Program Known to Mantm.:ick:
quite honestly, I don't know if i could even select all the faces that need to have their normals flipped, much less UV map those monsters.
and bizzybody's right, those missle launchers are pointing directly at the bridge:
Missile operator: Sir, we have a problem.
Supervisor: What is it?
Missile operator: You know that Dragon that just flew past? The one with "/V\Y /V4/V\3 15 (4r|_" spraypainted on the side?
Supervisor: yeah.
Missile operator: Well, the shivan inside flipped me off.
Supervisor: so?
Missile operator: So i got mad and accidentally hit the "missile launch" button.
Supervisor: did you get him?
Missile operator: Sir, we didn't have a missile lock.
Supervisor: OH SHI- *bridge blows up*
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Ok......the thing is I suck at moddeling right now anyhow.:doubt: Considering this is only my 3rd model, I do think I'm making progess. That is also why I asked if someone could clean it up a little and make it compatible with the game. BTW I did know about the missles, just didnt really didn't want to bother fixing it at that moment.
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Ok......the thing is I suck at moddeling right now anyhow.:doubt: Considering this is only my 3rd model, I do think I'm making progess. That is also why I asked if someone could clean it up a little and make it compatible with the game. BTW I did know about the missles, just didnt really didn't want to bother fixing it at that moment.
your third model? not bad at all. I'd start out with a fighter and work my way up though. That's the way I'm doing it.
It's so much easier to work on a model when it's smaller.
I recomend you model with Truespace instead of sketchup, as it will give you a fast in game route (you'll be able to set up the model as you make it.)
then, when you have the money for 3ds max, you be amazed at how good you are in an intuitive, easy to use modelling program.
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Yeah well, I don't have the money now for either Truespace or 3Ds MAX. Sketchup is free, so long as you don't have the Pro version. (On a side note, you have to have the Pro Ver. to convert to .3ds files) There is a trial for the pro, which is an 8 hour trial, which not contiuous with the system clock, only when its running. So what I have been doing is using the free version to create the models, then converting them with the Pro trial version.
Now......If I can get a free full version of a either Truespace, or 3Ds Max, I would be happy to download it and do this stuff on my own.....
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Now......If I can get a free full version of a either Truespace, or 3Ds Max, I would be happy to download it and do this stuff on my own.....
Truespace 3.2 is free.
download here. (http://forms.caligari.com/forms/ts3all_free.html)
register again here if the first link doesn't give you a serial number. (http://forms.caligari.com/forms/tS32_free.html)
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Theres also Blender which is free.
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Alright, so I opened up the newer version you sent me, and i learned very quickly to hate the menace that is sketchup.
First, I went to work flipping normals. I was keeping track of how many normals I flipped, but I lost count at 932. :shaking:
and then..... I tried to autogenerate a UV map. :shaking:
THAT THING HAS 3266 TRIANGLES!
Words can't do justice to the horror of that UV map.
So here, for your viewing horror, is that UV map:
(http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Turey/th_thehorror.png) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Turey/thehorror.png)
Click for full size.
and you know what? those two missle launchers are 47% OF THOSE TRIANGLES! A TOTAL OF 1547 TRIANGLES!
So i'm making two versions. Here's the .3ds with the normals fixed and (hopefully) a basic material applied. I'm still working on the one that will be UV mapped and converted into a .pof, because I need to redo those missile launchers. Don't worry, I'm staying as close to the original as posible.
btw, none of this post was written with the intent of insulting you. I like your model, it's sketchup i hate. :shaking:
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either you remake them in sketch-up with all the normals correct and see if it converts okay, or you go download Truespace and redo the weapons in the Worst Modelling Program Known to Mantm.:ick:
In your opinion. I use TS, and I find it very simple and easy to use. Okay, certain things are an issue, but 99.9% of the time, I'm perfectly content with it.
It all depends on personal perferance.
And now that I've posted, this thread will die... ::)
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Turey did you try to weld the vertices together?
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For you third model it's not bad. But in its current form it's beyond hope to get ingame, the whole cockpit area is fubar. The rear section is alright though.
I would avoid TrueSpace like the plague, but as you see there are people here with other opinions ;)
Blender (http://www.blender.org/cms/Home.2.0.html) is highly recommended and free.
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Actually im wondering if the conversion from .sku to .3ds made thoes triangles from the squares there. I say this because in Sketchup, there are not many tiangles that I can see. In fact they should mostly be quadrilaterals.
BTW I like what you have named the map file.
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yup. They're just far enough apart that welding the vertecies doesn't do much good. it does shrink the num of verts from 5106 to 1602.
however, it only removes 5 triangles, and the new UV map still looks horrible:
(http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Turey/th_thehorror2.png) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Turey/thehorror2.png)
Click for full size. It looks better on the white background as well.
i was planning on welding at the end. that's when i normally do it anyways. never know when a few extra verts could come in handy... :P
EDIT:
Actually im wondering if the conversion from .sku to .3ds made thoes triangles from the squares there. I say this because in Sketchup, there are not many tiangles that I can see. In fact they should mostly be quadrilaterals.
BTW I like what you have named the map file.
yeah, that's probably what happened. most 3d formats don't like four sided figures. While .3ds is normally fine with them, .pof hates them, so you'd get that effect anways.
the trick is to leave the part under the cockpit there, then make the cockpit hover above the quad a bit. As long as you don't break the surface, you actually use less triangles. Extruding from a face causes the triangulation on that face to go all weird, while making another part to the model and hovering it .0000000000000000001 meters above the main body doesn't change the triangulation of the main face.
it's a dificult concept to explain.
and yes, i like that name too. :lol:
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Not sure where the heck all those rectangles are coming from but beside that, it doesn't look too bad. I have a feeling its from the programs bevel/extrude control.
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In trueSpace 6.6 (didn't try it in 3.2), boolean subtracting a cube (that's not intersecting the model) with delete edges selected (default setting) will clear away all the triangulation anywhere the poly either side of the edge is in the same plane.
That drastically cuts down the number of faces. Unfortunately what buggers the process are those single sided upper rear wings. To start with, the normals on a few of the missile launcher barrels are backwards. Those one sided faces make trueSpace go gaga and flip all the normals, which makes only the initial backwards ones the right way around.
Reverting that is as easy as hitting the Flip All Normals button, which gets back to the starting condition.
But still more unfortunately, those upper wings screw things up and cause tS to see the model as non-solid after the subtract, and tS can't do much with non-solid models. However, if you can find the hole(s) and select all the edges around them, tS 6.6 has an Add Face button that'll fix it. I don't remember when that was added, don't know if it was somewhere in the 4.x series or 5.x. Of all the advances in 3.2 (like cubic UV!), hole repair was sorely missed.
Probably the best solution is for the a bit of rework to be done in sketchup. Axe the missile launchers completely as well as the large collections of square-tube cannons at each side, and especially fix those upper wings.
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Oh forgot to mention that i did do a little rework on the single sided wings and the launchers. Turney has the model uploaded already a few posts up.
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bizzybody,
I fixed all the normals. and the wings are actually box-like things (they're not a single face.)
go grab the updated file from my post.
and the railgun-like things actually aren't that bad. He was very smart to make those square, as otherwise you'd be right. The two main problem areas are the missile launchers and the cockpit.
In trueSpace 6.6 (didn't try it in 3.2), boolean subtracting a cube (that's not intersecting the model) with delete edges selected (default setting) will clear away all the triangulation anywhere the poly either side of the edge is in the same plane.
yes, but PCS or Modelview will just re-triangulate it (because Freespace needs it that way) and then you're back where you started.
scooby's right, the only way to counteract this is through limiting the use of the extrude and bevel tools.
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The solution to problems with triangulation when converting to a format that insists a mesh has to be only triangles, is to do it yourself manually. This is especially important with low-poly designs where the direction a slightly non-flat quad is triangulated can be the difference between what you want and your ship looking like a small bomb went off under the skin. ;)
Unfortunately for freebie lovers, trueSpace didn't get an Add Edges function until 4.something... but with careful use of the Bevel tool and edge/vertex deleting you can put edges between any two vertices on a poly in 3.2.
My step-by-step tutorial on single poly triangulation in tS 3.2. http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,41914.0.html
Heyyyy mods!? How about a subforum for trueSpace 3.2 tips and tricks? :)
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Well I could drop the cockpit to a 6 face version.
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Well I could drop the cockpit to a 6 face version.
it should be fine as-is. I'll finish it up later today.
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Well I was referring to was unoptimized beveling, Max has this problem too.
For example
I take this surface:
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Bevel it once, i've created 4 new triangles (actually if it's a real 3d rectangle then 8 tri)
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Bevel it again
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You can see the problem.
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huh?
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Highlighted in red. Those are two extra triangles.
It should look like this:
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While the two polys may not be much of a problem speed is concerned, they do add up in the UVMap (since their usually seperated from the rest of the uv mesh.)
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You can delete them manually.
Or bevel the two faces together at first and then bevel the mid-level one back up and do a weld afterwards. (if that makes any sense to you)
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OK, got the wing all fixed up by slicing off the right half (which had some problems) and using Mirror Model in tS 6.6 to mirror and weld together one that was all good.
As for the body, I tried the same but it has some really funky faces connected to all the wrong places. :( I've done a bunch of fiddling, triangulating by hand and minute vertex position adjustments so those faces will _stay_ triangulated if anything with automatic edge deletion is done.
Still haven't figured out how to kill the bad faces. I may try chopping off the left half of the original and starting over with the tweaking. *tries it* Oh bloody... That's WEIRD. tS 6.6 now won't decompose the .3ds the same way it did the first time. It keeps the wing stuck on and only breaks off the right launcher.
Even odder, the first time it produced copies of a couple of faces as seperate objects, same story the second time importing but two _different_ faces. Looks like an external format conversion is needed.
If'n someone can fix the wonky geometry and post back the body half, I'd appreciate it, or at least critique the edits. Lots fewer faces on the body now.
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Highlighted in red. Those are two extra triangles.
It should look like this:
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________|
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While the two polys may not be much of a problem speed is concerned, they do add up in the UVMap (since their usually seperated from the rest of the uv mesh.)
I recognise that, I just don't understand why it's a problem - either delete the polys, or poly-divide, extrude, then weld. Piece o' piss to fix.
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OK, got the wing all fixed up by slicing off the right half (which had some problems) and using Mirror Model in tS 6.6 to mirror and weld together one that was all good.
As for the body, I tried the same but it has some really funky faces connected to all the wrong places. :( I've done a bunch of fiddling, triangulating by hand and minute vertex position adjustments so those faces will _stay_ triangulated if anything with automatic edge deletion is done.
Still haven't figured out how to kill the bad faces. I may try chopping off the left half of the original and starting over with the tweaking. *tries it* Oh bloody... That's WEIRD. tS 6.6 now won't decompose the .3ds the same way it did the first time. It keeps the wing stuck on and only breaks off the right launcher.
Even odder, the first time it produced copies of a couple of faces as seperate objects, same story the second time importing but two _different_ faces. Looks like an external format conversion is needed.
If'n someone can fix the wonky geometry and post back the body half, I'd appreciate it, or at least critique the edits. Lots fewer faces on the body now.
Just don't stray too far from the original, please.
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Thanks to Turey I did manage to get it to change it to a pof file now, which I was wanting from this so thanks. if you still want to play areound with this model more feel free. Just send me the final product when you finished at [email protected]. Thanks all.
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Problem, no (btw deleting them and not welding the vertices will leave a open gap in the model (although not visible, just a bit more confusing in the uvmap [it'll appear as if it's not connected to anything])
Course the extrude the entire thing and then extrude again will prevent this.
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Descenter, one thing to do is to delete the recessed bores of the weapon barrels. Such detail will never be seen in the game and a piece of the texture with a dark spot for the hole in the muzzle will work just fine visually.
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Descenter, one thing to do is to delete the recessed bores of the weapon barrels. Such detail will never be seen in the game and a piece of the texture with a dark spot for the hole in the muzzle will work just fine visually.
Thats doing a good share of all those rectangles in the uvmap
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Indeed, it's no-ones fault, but in some ways the flexibility of the FS2 engine nowadays means you have to be all the more careful about ghost polies and 2-point polies etc. You wouldn't get away with them with the old engine, whereas you can in the new, and they can seriously eat the polygon count, and can lead to problems that may not show up until later in the mission.
I do like having a more forgiving Engine, it makes life easier for people to start making Mods for Freespace, but it also means that people can develop 'bad habits' while modelling (That's not a dig at you Descenter, everyone goes through this stage with modelling, which is why everyone knows what the problem is ;)).
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Lol, I can already kinda figure that, but just for curiositiy's sake, I wanted to see what it does ingame.
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OK, spent some time just now trying some more stuff on it, and the results don't bode well.
This model has some seriously nasty geometry problems.
1. The nosecone. Behind that nice extruded nose is a rectangular polygon the app used to make this with 'forgot' to remove when the nose was extruded. The nose can be deleted and that's OK, can be redone in some other app.
2. The bottom 'V' hull area. This whole section from stem to stern is just sitting on (under) a giant face that comprises the whole underside. I assume this was the shape you started with in Sketchup? If there were no other problems, this could probably be properly joined up to the main model in trueSpace. Move the eye inside the model, between the V bottom and that huge face and the whole face can be selected. This makes double faces outboard of the V bottom on the undersides of the wings.
3. The wing gun emplacements. At the top edge of their cutouts into the wings, there's a double edge. The top of the cutout is three segments but that edge on the top wing face runs straight across the cutout in one segment.
4. The top of the rear pylon. It looks like it's normal, but after removing the wing and using the rectangle point select in tS 6.6 then trying to move that top edge reveals that those faces are just leaned against one another, they move off in all directions.
I'm calling this model a nice design idea :yes: but totally FUBAR in the geometry department. :ick: Though I did manage to get the wing section cured earlier, see my post above with it and half the body with cleanup/editing, though still geometry problems.
If you still have that initial polygon/plane/shape, try getting it into tS 3.2 and start over. One thing with trueSpace, it's really hard to create geometry nasties like you got with Sketchup and converting to .3ds
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Does it matter now that i did get it into a pof format and can place it into fred2 without a problem?
Fun thing is now, It's bigger than i anticpated it would be. So instead, im going to cal it a player useable gunboat ship thingy. :D
Gun points, thruster, sheilds, and docking point all have been placed and it seems to do fine. Of corse that's from someone that probably doesnt know anything anyhow.
And I can only get better from here as time goes on, right? ;)
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If it works and you've the CPU power to hurl it around, eh. :) What's the native file format of that sketchup program? Were it my creation, I'd make notes of all the vertex coordinates, then start from scratch with a new model. Possibly take a cube that's been quad divided several times then manually move every vertex out to match the position list for the main body.
I've done that before when dinking around got something I really liked, then I figured 'Just *one more* vertex delete here... oh @#%@#! Now it's ripped a hole in it!'.
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Heh, my first ever ship was about 30-40 polys iirc, more or less a triangle with a cockpit :) It's a good feeling just to see your own model in game and fighting ;)
And yep, it gets easier with practice, though, I fear, setting up Hierarchies will always be a pain in the bum.
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The problem I'm running into now is the textures. The model's there, just you see right through it, because it has no assigned maps to it. ....and I don't know how to do that.....