Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on October 29, 2006, 02:28:50 am
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15424638/
The decide to celebrate with more riots. :rolleyes:
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When are Europeans going to learn that you don't celebrate riots with riots? Do holidays the American way--get madly drunk until you forget what the day was all about. Silly continent. :p
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When are Europeans going to learn that you don't celebrate riots with riots? Do holidays the American way--get madly drunk until you forget what the day was all about. Silly continent. :p
Go to Scandinavia sometime. Or Germany or Eastern Europe. Then be ashamed for your countrymen. Or Britain.
I'd go ahead and say that silly Americans' drinking habits are just perversed copies of European drinking habits, brought along by those who once left their lands and sailed beyond the Deep Blue Sea and now their blood has grown weak and their numbers few in the dim light of the
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The rioting was fueled by anger at France’s failure to offer equal opportunities to ... France’s 5 million-strong Muslim population.
"we came to your country and you didn't give us stuff, HOW DARE YOU NOT GIVE US STUFF!!! oh we are so rioting till you give us stuff!"
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When are Europeans going to learn that you don't celebrate riots with riots? Do holidays the American way--get madly drunk until you forget what the day was all about. Silly continent. :p
How do you get drunk in the states? I can't find any beer above 2%.
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Try Cruzan Rum - it's 120 proof, you can't take it on a plane :D
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When are Europeans going to learn that you don't celebrate riots with riots? Do holidays the American way--get madly drunk until you forget what the day was all about. Silly continent. :p
How do you get drunk in the states? I can't find any beer above 2%.
It's not the quality of the beer you drink--it's the quantity. :D Binge! Binge! Binge! Binge!
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Erm, no.
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Oh, I'm afraid so.
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:wtf: Your fear seems to be stealthy. Like moose.
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I am moose. :p
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When are Europeans going to learn that you don't celebrate riots with riots? Do holidays the American way--get madly drunk until you forget what the day was all about. Silly continent. :p
Or Fireworks. Fireworks are also good.
"Celebrate the birth of your country by blowing up a small part of it."
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When are Europeans going to learn that you don't celebrate riots with riots? Do holidays the American way--get madly drunk until you forget what the day was all about. Silly continent. :p
How do you get drunk in the states? I can't find any beer above 2%.
Solution? Don't drink beer. Drink liquor.
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The rioting was fueled by anger at France’s failure to offer equal opportunities to ... France’s 5 million-strong Muslim population.
"we came to your country and you didn't give us stuff, HOW DARE YOU NOT GIVE US STUFF!!! oh we are so rioting till you give us stuff!"
Don't even bother. Most of the rest of this board chooses to see the rioting as completely and utterly disconnected from the Muslim angle. *shrugs*
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That's because most of this board doesn't believe in lazily sectarian blame games played for the purposes of demonizing a group of people and instead likes to look at the cold, hard realities of immigration-caused schisms, class division & inequality of both treatment and opportunity, and racism. It's easy to go 'Muslim savages', because we can abdicate any responsibility we feel for holding onto supersticious prejudices about people of a different culture or skin colour.
Kind of like how anarchist riots at G8 conferences are seen as disconnected from Christianity (y'know, because they're mostly by white europeans and north americans, so they must be all Christians - right?).
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'we are going to do the exact polar opposite of what our ancestors did out of ignorance, because if thinking everyone who is diferent is bad means that your ignorant, then thinking everyone diferent that you is good means you are learned.'
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'making up strawman arguments is a sign of idiocy'
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That's because most of this board doesn't believe in lazily sectarian blame games played for the purposes of demonizing a group of people and instead likes to look at the cold, hard realities of immigration-caused schisms, class division & inequality of both treatment and opportunity, and racism. It's easy to go 'Muslim savages', because we can abdicate any responsibility we feel for holding onto supersticious prejudices about people of a different culture or skin colour.
Kind of like how anarchist riots at G8 conferences are seen as disconnected from Christianity (y'know, because they're mostly by white europeans and north americans, so they must be all Christians - right?).
How about the "cold, hard realities" that the majority of the rioters were Muslims? (http://travel2.nytimes.com/2005/11/07/international/europe/07france.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=7f658c6d0c71740b&ex=1162443600) Not saying that radical Islam had anything to do with it, or that it's some terrorist plot to take over France, but it's worth noting.
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That's because most of this board doesn't believe in lazily sectarian blame games played for the purposes of demonizing a group of people and instead likes to look at the cold, hard realities of immigration-caused schisms, class division & inequality of both treatment and opportunity, and racism. It's easy to go 'Muslim savages', because we can abdicate any responsibility we feel for holding onto supersticious prejudices about people of a different culture or skin colour.
Kind of like how anarchist riots at G8 conferences are seen as disconnected from Christianity (y'know, because they're mostly by white europeans and north americans, so they must be all Christians - right?).
How about the "cold, hard realities" that the majority of the rioters were Muslims? (http://travel2.nytimes.com/2005/11/07/international/europe/07france.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=7f658c6d0c71740b&ex=1162443600) Not saying that radical Islam had anything to do with it, or that it's some terrorist plot to take over France, but it's worth noting.
I'm guessing the majority were also young, immigrant / immigrant-descended, living in council estates, unemployed with low income... etc. I'd like to add I love the phrase
Though a majority of the youths committing the acts are Muslim, and of African or North African origin, the mayhem has yet to take on any ideological or religious overtones
Why don't we see that little bit of phrasology when riots are by mainly Christian whites (http://travel2.nytimes.com/2006/03/30/international/europe/30smashers.html)?
But, as I said, it's piss easy to blame religion for riots. Because religion is the one cause you can cite and then do precisely **** all about to remove and still be safe.
Some of the poorest, most socially excluded and deprived people in France were African-Immigrant Muslims, and they rioted. Why pick 'muslim' from that list of characteristics? Why not black? Why not immigrant, or poor, or unemployed? Oh, right.... it's not good TV or media.
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Well, they were expressly motivated by the French government's treatment of those of Islamic religious leanings. Since the French have decided to ban most methods of expressing that affilition.
There was an article on it in Foreign Affairs this month (I happen to have a copy for a paper). The French government has really made a mess of handling their immigration issues, and the riot wasn't enough to wake them up; they went and made a bigger hash of it instead.
The French need a freedom of religion clause somewhere, for their own safety.
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Well, they were expressly motivated by the French government's treatment of those of Islamic religious leanings. Since the French have decided to ban most methods of expressing that affilition.
There was an article on it in Foreign Affairs this month (I happen to have a copy for a paper). The French government has really made a mess of handling their immigration issues, and the riot wasn't enough to wake them up; they went and made a bigger hash of it instead.
The French need a freedom of religion clause somewhere, for their own safety.
The riots were instigated by the deaths of 2 immigrant youths who reportedly died hiding in an electricity station from police (performing ID checks; reportedly it was not unusual for immigrants to be detained for up to 4 hours without any charge for questioning). That was the expressed motivation for the initial protests that eventually led to the rioting.
However, the general consensus as far as I have seen is that the cause of the riots was long term and historic social inequality for immigrant families living in slum council estates, including perceived police (and state) prejudice, unemployment and discrimination. There has never been a suggestion (I have seen before) - beyond those who gain from making it, such as right wing commentators - that religion was any causal or motivating factor, and the chief of French Intelligence has stated there was no religious motivation to the riots in Le Monde (unless, of course, you mean discrimination against Muslims - or indeed Africans - in French society).
The French do have a freedom of religion law dating from 1905 that forbids discrimination and seperates church from state; this is the very reason for the famous headress ban. It is also enshrined in the very first part of the French constitution (http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/english/8ab.asp); "France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic. It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion. It shall respect all beliefs. It shall be organised on a decentralised basis."
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When are Europeans going to learn that you don't celebrate riots with riots? Do holidays the American way--get madly drunk until you forget what the day was all about. Silly continent. :p
Be a millwall fan,..... Combine the two :D
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See, that's not a freedom of religion law; that's merely ensure the state does not acknowledge religion. It doesn't give you freedom to practice.
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"It shall respect all beliefs"
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Except scientologists of course :blah: :nod:
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Except scientologists of course :blah: :nod:
No-one respects scientologists - it's part of the UN Charter, right below the acceptance of Pat Sharpes mullet as the greatest hairdo of the 20th century.
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:lol: Gawd i hope that was sarcasm...............
The Sharpsters mullet will one day rise again and take control of the planet, like Dave listers old sandwich....
Anyway, back to the .......ummm :doubt: French......... :ick:
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French are jolly decent blokes. Our allies and whatnot.
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:nervous: Tally ho......
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"It shall respect all beliefs"
Well, then they need to follow their own laws. :p Seriously though, the French government has made a gigantic mess of things since the riots with their Islamic minority. It is not surprising to me at all there was more rioting, what is surprising is that it wasn't larger than the original.
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You mean the immigrant minority?
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no he doesn't.
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no he doesn't.
Oh, so he doesn't mean the rioters?
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yes, he means the Muslim rioters.
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yes, he means the Muslim rioters.
Oh, you mean the black rioters? Or the poor rioters? Or the unemployed rioters?
Why use Muslim as a cachet?
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because it's the most common string, and it's easier than typing poor north African and middle eastern immigrants.
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Q.E.D Aldo's point.
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Oh, so he doesn't mean the rioters?
Yes and no.
The French government chooses to label the riots as Islamic regardless, and hence has directed their ill-concieved measures against their Islamic minority.
Though arguably that is the same thing as their black minority. It is not the same as their poor, however.
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Oh, so he doesn't mean the rioters?
Yes and no.
The French government chooses to label the riots as Islamic regardless, and hence has directed their ill-concieved measures against their Islamic minority.
Though arguably that is the same thing as their black minority. It is not the same as their poor, however.
Find me a link to that labelling, please; I've never ever seen a statement to that effect from anyone official within the French government. I do know the French Imams issued a fatwah (decree) against the riots, though.
The rioters were, however, pretty much (if not completely) unemployed immigrant youths exclusively from the poorest areas of Paris, making 'poor riots' far more accurate as it describes both a common demographic factor and, crucially, an actual root cause.
Incidentally - what measures?
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France + Muslims + Airports: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6108574.stm
I can see why it happened though. Young religious types, in a secular society, would feel very isolated and thus vulnerable to being radicalised.
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France + Muslims + Airports: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6108574.stm
I can see why it happened though. Young religious types, in a secular society, would feel very isolated and thus vulnerable to being radicalised.
70 is a pretty shocking number, assuming they all are guilty / a threat.
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Still a miniscule percentage of the broader (non race affiliated) problem........ :nervous:
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Well, they were expressly motivated by the French government's treatment of those of Islamic religious leanings. Since the French have decided to ban most methods of expressing that affilition.
Only in public institutions, which should be neutral when in comes to religion, something which goes for members of ANY religion. France is a ecular state and "laicité" is taken seriously. Outside public institutions they're free to express their religion as they want.