Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on March 02, 2007, 11:41:55 pm
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http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/81570/Evangelist_Mom_On_Global_Warming_Evolution_and_Reationism.html
This is scary.
Oh, forgot to mention, this is a clip from a documentary called "Jesus Camp", which is being aquired right now. Any thoughts from someone who has seen it?
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I'm speechless. I am without speech.
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hence, my case for abortion.
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"Lol, global warming is false... dude it only went up .6 degrees."
*Greenland melts away*
... "ZOMG, the Global Warming activists must've nuked Greenland. Lolwtf."
No, I haven't seen the movie yet... I'll go grab it tomorrow. Though I doubt I have the stomach to watch 85 minutes of people preaching BS.
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hey was that char there, "heh yeah that's what my dad said too"
I remember someone not beleiveing that young earth creationists could exist in significant numbers, now you know my horror.
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So now we can all agree that homeschooling in this manner is blatantly child abuse?
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meh, it's less competition for me in the scientific fields.
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http://www.brightcove.com/title.jsp?title=525642708&channel=525261929
There's the whole thing.
It's funnier than anything if you ask me. A bunch of Pentecostals in the first part.
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I live 30 miles from Missouri BTW
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So now we can all agree that homeschooling in this manner is blatantly child abuse?
Nope. It is the right of every parent to pass on their biases, views, values and identity on to their kids. And I'm not even being sarcastic - that's the promise and peril of leaving child-rearing to the family unit.
I may disagree with it, but I respect the right of some Evangelical mom to teach her kids creationism as much as I respect the opposite. Now you can make this or that arguement in favour of the state educating kids instead of their parents, but I think that's an arguement you would lose. If the family is not there to educate its own, what purpose exactly does it serve?
The difference between teaching and indoctrination exists more on paper than in substance - and I say this for all people and all topics of edcation. I would much, much, much prefer indoctrination to be decentralized, as is the case when each parent educates their children, then under the power of a monolithic organization. Call it hedging your bets.
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I agree with Rictor BTW.
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wow that woman running the camp, she's "like look at the muslums they get people to put on bombs and kill themselves, we need to figure out how to do that!"
I got to admit I have a bit of respect for that mother, as misguided as she is. from her perspective she's saveing her children from the godless hords, I hope if I get kids that I'd be able to do as much to save them... from people like her.
hehe "and we pray over the electrical systems and the powerpoint presentations in Jesus name"
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meh, it's less competition for me in the scientific fields.
Yeah, it's hard enough getting accepted to a good graduate program, let alone a tenure-track position after that, we don't need the competition from these people ;)
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Nope. It is the right of every parent to pass on their biases, views, values and identity on to their kids. And I'm not even being sarcastic - that's the promise and peril of leaving child-rearing to the family unit.
That's valid, and i'm certainly not opposed to the basic right of raising your own children, but rather there be some form of oversight for cases such as this. A society should strive to rid itself of harmful values, of which this anti-thought drivel is a part, and if that infringes on parenting then so be it.
I may disagree with it, but I respect the right of some Evangelical mom to teach her kids creationism as much as I respect the opposite. Now you can make this or that argument in favour of the state educating kids instead of their parents, but I think that's an argument you would lose. If the family is not there to educate its own, what purpose exactly does it serve?
It's not as if i'm saying children should be educated entirely by the state, but merely that there be a tad more oversight into what the devil these evangelist parents are feeding their kids! The teaching of such anti-thought bullshot like what's demonstrated in the linked clips is quite frankly tantamount to physical abuse, which most western Governments take a hard line against. Hence it should be a logical step for the Government to regulate what these kids are told. The parents are vital to the education of their children, but without the communal and open educational experience of a proper school, the parents alone just aren't enough.
The difference between teaching and indoctrination exists more on paper than in substance - and I say this for all people and all topics of education. I would much, much, much prefer indoctrination to be decentralized, as is the case when each parent educates their children, then under the power of a monolithic organization. Call it hedging your bets.
Can't really argue with that, although i'd rather have no indoctrination at all.
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A society should strive to rid itself of harmful values
funny that's the fundie position as well.
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Oh, you know what I mean.
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yeah, you think there way of life and thinking are wrong (which I would agree with), and that the government is obliged to come in and reeducate them and there children.
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What I think of their way of life is irrelevant. It's the act of indoctrinating their children, against which they have little defense, that really irks me. That is what the Government should keep an eye on, not what they believe but how they propagate their beliefs.
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The only real way to get rid of these people in a democratic society is to educate the masses properly, so that the minority of people who act like this become social pariahs.
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I blame the lack of Porn.
Seriously. It's almost a pre-built requisite among men to at least see as many boobies as possible. God Alone (pardon the pun) knows what sort of phsychological damage these people are doing to themselves. But then I suppose having the willpower to believe the world is 6000 years old and made by a big beard in the sky is easy once you've convinced yourself that the female body is somehow 'sinful' to take pleasure in unless you've pre-paid the church for the 'right' to have sex with them.
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I blame the lack of Porn.
Seriously. It's almost a pre-built requisite among men to at least see as many boobies as possible. God Alone (pardon the pun) knows what sort of phsychological damage these people are doing to themselves. But then I suppose having the willpower to believe the world is 6000 years old and made by a big beard in the sky is easy once you've convinced yourself that the female body is somehow 'sinful' to take pleasure in unless you've pre-paid the church for the 'right' to have sex with them.
Well, you know the answer then: Church-funded pr0n sites! :p
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:lol: NunFun Volume 2!
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meh, it's less competition for me in the scientific fields.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. Once the little dude hits puberty he's probably going to rebel against anything his parents stand for. I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes an atheist studying biology.
The more strict you force your kids in one direction, the harder they will try to break free from it once the hormones get flowing.
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I wouldn't be too sure about that. Once the little dude hits puberty he's probably going to rebel against anything his parents stand for. I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes an atheist studying biology.
The more strict you force your kids in one direction, the harder they will try to break free from it once the hormones get flowing.
Or they could, you know, start to act on the principles their parents taught them.
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I actually watched all four parts of that documentary. I've wanted to see it, but I could never find it anywhere. Thanks to Swantz for posting it.
That being said, most of what they put in that video is really quite disturbing. The minister speaks about how (some) children in the Middle East are taught in school that it is acceptable to kill Americans or that the US is the "Great Satan." She then goes on to elaborate on how Christianity is a religion of peace. Yet further on, she states that each of those children is a member of the "Army of God." There is even a part where she tells them that she would be "Honored if they laid down their lives for God," or some similar statement. Excuse me, but these are kids! They aren't soldiers. Basically, she states that the religious war brainwashing that occurs in the Middle East is evil, yet proceeds to carry out that same policy on these kids.
But the thing is, they're just kids! They shouldn't be preparing to go to war to defend their beliefs. They should be running around and playing tag or pretending that their backyard slide is a spaceship to another galaxy. These kids should be left to form their opinions and beliefs about the world, not have some canned and packaged indoctrination crammed down their throats.
Second, the trick with the water was particularly nasty. It is really a method by which she can separate the "true believers" from the "hypocrites" in front of everyone. By having these supposed "hypocrites" confess their "sins" in front of everyone, these kids are damaging their self-image. The minister then sets herself up as the only person who can "save" them and rebuild their self-image. The result is the creation of an individual who is even more intensely fanatical than those who follow her willingly.
In effect, she really is building an "Army of God."
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But the thing is, they're just kids! They shouldn't be preparing to go to war to defend their beliefs. They should be running around and playing tag or pretending that their backyard slide is a spaceship to another galaxy.
But they are playing tag! Only with tag missiles now. And their ''spaceships'' are fighters, see? Nothing wrong. :P
[yes, it was a joke]
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I actually watched all four parts of that documentary. I've wanted to see it, but I could never find it anywhere. Thanks to Swantz for posting it.
There's actually 8 parts, just search "Jesus Camp" in the search bar up top.
Anyway, I don't care if parents teach their kids what they want, because, as kids age they tend to form their own beliefs.
Still, telling them to go die fighting Islam, or anyone the evangelical leaders consider "wrong" is well.... wrong.
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The minister speaks about how (some) children in the Middle East are taught in school that it is acceptable to kill Americans or that the US is the "Great Satan." She then goes on to elaborate on how Christianity is a religion of peace. Yet further on, she states that each of those children is a member of the "Army of God." There is even a part where she tells them that she would be "Honored if they laid down their lives for God," or some similar statement. Excuse me, but these are kids! They aren't soldiers.
Don't take the term "Go's Army" literary. Laying down your life in Lord's name doesn't mena to go off killing unbelivers, but rather to be prepared to BE killed becouse you belive.
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I recognize that, TrashMan, but we're talking about kids here. Nine, ten, and eleven years old, being told and believing that they are in God's Army and should die for Him.
In addition, being a perceived member of an army implies killing is acceptable, which is much what Muslim children in some countries are taught to believe towards Americans. They are actually preaching for what they stand against.
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I recognize that, TrashMan, but we're talking about kids here. Nine, ten, and eleven years old, being told and believing that they are in God's Army and should die for Him.
In addition, being a perceived member of an army implies killing is acceptable, which is much what Muslim children in some countries are taught to believe towards Americans. They are actually preaching for what they stand against.
If those kids think like you are saying, they are pretty dumb for their age.
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The problem isn't a lack of intelligence; I'm sure those kids are bright. The problem is that they aren't raised to question what that woman is telling them. From a very young age, their parents tell them that the Church is always right and not to question them, or else God will punish you. Even if they did question her, they would be labeled as hypocrites and singled out in front of everyone, in a manner much like that water trick.
My personal opinion is that that woman is twisting those kids into blind followers, too afraid to question anything.
Heh, post #666 in a thread arguing against evangelicals... :D
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yeah, you think there way of life and thinking are wrong (which I would agree with), and that the government is obliged to come in and reeducate them and there children.
The real issue with this is the political indoctrination these kids are going through. In addition to a couple of tricks that were already mentioned above, here are a couple more:
One of them was when they brought a cardboard cutout of George W. Bush and wre saying things like "God bless our president" and were also telling these kids to believe in him.
One of things the disturbed me a lot was the whole abortion thing. It was so manipulative, it is evil in it's own right. It was pure indoctrination. He also had them praying for supreme court judges. 9 year old kids praying for supreme court judges?! And then towards the end the same guy had several of these kids standing in front of the Supreme Court building in Washington DC with tape over their mouths that say "Life". If this isn't indoctrination, then Bin Laden is a saint. It is obvious manipulation, and it's wrong.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. Once the little dude hits puberty he's probably going to rebel against anything his parents stand for. I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes an atheist studying biology
Not always, I once knew a kid in high school who was like this kids, except he was always like this. Oddly enough his name was also "Levi".
One of the things he did I was always remember is during our senior year. We had to do a big "Senior Project" and of course we had classes for this. I remember he was talking with our teacher about this and he said to her "I know I'm going to pass because I'm doing God's work; I know he's on my side". Now here is the best part, after he gave his presentation we eventually found out the results......he failed it miserably and had to give it again. Oh the irony.
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yeah, you think there way of life and thinking are wrong (which I would agree with), and that the government is obliged to come in and reeducate them and there children.
The real issue with this is the political indoctrination these kids are going through. In addition to a couple of tricks that were already mentioned above, here are a couple more:
One of them was when they brought a cardboard cutout of George W. Bush and wre saying things like "God bless our president" and were also telling these kids to believe in him.
One of things the disturbed me a lot was the whole abortion thing. It was so manipulative, it is evil in it's own right. It was pure indoctrination. He also had them praying for supreme court judges. 9 year old kids praying for supreme court judges?! And then towards the end the same guy had several of these kids standing in front of the Supreme Court building in Washington DC with tape over their mouths that say "Life". If this isn't indoctrination, then Bin Laden is a saint. It is obvious manipulation, and it's wrong.
Dang there must not be anything to talk about. Come on, getting kids to pray for the ones in office and saying "God bless our president" is political indoctrination? Heck, lets just outlaw the singing of "God Bless America". Soon you guys are gonna be grumbling because kids are taught to thank God for their food before they eat.
Maybe threads like this is why the goverment is not allowed to say what is taught in home. :doubt:
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Dang there must not be anything to talk about. Come on, getting kids to pray for the ones in office and saying "God bless our president" is political indoctrination?
There was a lot more to it than just saying that. I couldn't remember what else they said, but it reeked of indoctrination. Don't take my word for it, go see the movie yourself.
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The kids should be thanking the grocery store, the truckers who brought it there, and the migrant workers who worked on the farms to make their food.
Oh that's right, those migrant workers are mexicans... we couldn't thank those people it'd be un-american!
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well it's there culture, thats the sort of environment they came from, you can't, or supose I don't think you should, take there children from them, you have to fight them as adults. it's just not a tacktic I'm comfortable with, right now they are saying the same things, saying that atheism is an abuse, that homosexuality is a crime against nature, and they think that if you don't teach your kids this you are hurting them, when they get enough power they are going to try this very thing, I will not become them, but I will fight them with my very life if it comes to it.
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Dang there must not be anything to talk about. Come on, getting kids to pray for the ones in office and saying "God bless our president" is political indoctrination?
There was a lot more to it than just saying that. I couldn't remember what else they said, but it reeked of indoctrination. Don't take my word for it, go see the movie yourself.
But see, you didn't say it. If I were to watch the video I would most likely find a good bit I don't agree with. But what you posted is what most people think as, well normal.
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*snip*
These Evangelicals have stated for many years that they want to push their beliefs onto everyone else and get rid of the pesky "seperation of church and state". Just listen to what they are saying; such enlightning things as "this is war". It's about numbers, they have more and they are getting more and more powerful every year.
But what you posted is what most people think as, well normal.
It's not what I meant. I pulled a Bush manuever. :p
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"These Evangelicals have stated for many years that they want to push their beliefs onto everyone else"
and that's what you have to fight, takeing there kids from them cause they are raiseing the wrong is not.
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I live just a few hours away from where Jesus Camp is :nervous:
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me too
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Jesus camp takes place at Devils Lake, ND (hahah the irony)
DL has been having troubles for years with the lake overflowing. I'm about 70 miles north and 80 miles east of there.
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Devil's Lake is a hell of a place to host a christian camp......
:nervous:
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oh, I though it was in Kansas city, I'm a bit further than I thought.
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The main pastor is from Kansas City (and appearently many of the kids are from there too), but the actual camp is held in North Dakota.
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well I live just near St.Louis which is exactly one Missouri away from Kansas city, about 200 miles away.
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That isn't exactly near it then........
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it's like a 3 hours drive. that's not far, it's closer than Chicago, and I consider Chicago close.
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Now, I myself am Christian, but my mother raised me to be open minded and to always be looking for the beliefe system that most fit me as a person. So I watch this and feel somewhat ill.
Creationism is really the only answer to all the questions.
And a thought comes to mind: This kind of belief is only for Christians who, for whatever reason, feel the NEED to pretend that they are "in the know" about all of Gods workings (and in the case of a lot of Christians I have met, all of Gods plans, as well.) The rest of us, who can be comfortable with NOT knowing everything, are able to find real answers and then look back at the Bible and feel like we have seen more of what God want's us to see than just text on a page. If the Bible is "The Word" and a picture is worth a thousand words... then real objects, portrayed by real pictures, all created by God, but be worth a thousand Words.
Sorry... that kindof close-mindedness scares me.
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That's kinda funny, when I was that age I didn't want to fight for God, I wanted to join the RDF and fight for Earth (God could be my co-pilot though, cause I control this stick *****!) :D
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Life is indoctrination.
From everyone, for everywhere, all the time. Accept that.
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I'm glad I'm not going into an area of work that anything like this could affect.
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Anyway, I don't care if parents teach their kids what they want, because, as kids age they tend to form their own beliefs.
QFT... my parents were (and still are) a lot like the mother in this video... the real world tends to clear peoples heads of all this bull ****.
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Life is indoctrination.
From everyone, for everywhere, all the time. Accept that.
Bollocks.
You're confusing education with indoctrination.
indoctrination
* teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically
doctrine
* a belief (or system of beliefs) accepted as authoritative by some group or school
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so there is no belief (or system of beliefs) which you accept as authoritative?
and did not someone teach you to accept it?
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so there is no belief (or system of beliefs) which you accept as authoritative?
and did not someone teach you to accept it?
Was that to me?
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yeah, don't you believe in things like equality and that all people have a right to live? didn't you learn that from someone? don't you want to teach your kids that?
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yeah, don't you believe in things like equality and that all people have a right to live? didn't you learn that from someone? don't you want to teach your kids that?
indoctrination
* teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically
My own opinions were not formed without consideration; much of my life has been education, that is the act of critiqueing opinions and positions to pick the one which makes most logical and rational sense. Whilst I may 'pull' opinions from a variety of sources (parents, friends, workmates, environment, TV, this form), I still make a decision which I agree with based on a critical evaluation.
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Indoctrination is knowing you shouldn't kill people.
Education is knowing why.
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Life is indoctrination.
From everyone, for everywhere, all the time. Accept that.
Ooohh, deep. :p
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I just hope, after watching that, people remember it doesn't represent every Christian.
Also, I thought it more interesting than anything some of the music the video would play during certain scences (specifically the "speaking in tongues" thing). It made an already uncomfortable viewing even more haunting.
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I like it when they use scientific reasoning to actually try to PROVE creationism. The points they make have led me to believe that "God" (whatever name you prefer to call Him) used the process we know as evolution to sculpt out what we are right now. Why he would make something as crappy as us, I will never know. However, my reasoning is hard to argue for or against, so I tend to stick with it, as it doesn't cause argument.
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What I don't get is the presumption that such an... entity would be male. By definition IT would be genderless. For that matter why would it more strongly identify with one gender than another? Seems rather silly.
Of course claiming that some all powerful sentient thing "just is" which adds another layer of complexity above things being "just is" is also rather silly.
Return to your usual, illogical, silliness meatbags. You'll be boxed soon enough...
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What I don't get is the presumption that such an... entity would be male.
Male chauvanism?
It's really similair reasoning to that of "we are made in His image".
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I strongly suspect, like all great male inventions, religion was invented as a way to pick up chicks....
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20,000 years ago...
*Snot drools from nose*
"Heh... heh... have sex with me or... or... you will be killed.... ermm not by me but... by the gods.... no... THE GOD.... and you will... *wheezes* be tormented forever!"
"So... you hear the will of this... god who can kill me?"
"YES! God speaks to me when I'm painting in the back of my mother's cave! OBEY GOD'S WILL!"
"Ermm... I better not risk dying... god's will be done then..."
Then he realises he might only have sex with her once.
"Also, no condoms or birth control plants. GOD WANTS YOU TO MAKE BABIES! Now get pregnant and barefoot."
"Why would god want me pregnant all the time?"
"It's YOUR DUTY... because god is a man, the ALPHA MALE, and HE wants YOU to be happy with babies!"
"Oh... that makes sense..."
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That's right kids, religion was started by the neolithic equivalent of a World of Warcraft junkie.
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What I don't get is the presumption that such an... entity would be male.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of **** you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.
No woman could or would ever **** things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a ****. Doesn't give a ****, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.
There's the easiest explanation.
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christian terrorist training camp
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christian terrorist training camp
Impossible, they're white.
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http://www.brightcove.com/title.jsp?title=525642708&channel=525261929
There's the whole thing.
It's funnier than anything if you ask me. A bunch of Pentecostals in the first part.
I personally am pentecostal. And whats wrong with pentecostals? And unlike creationism, i know a bit about Pentecostalism.
EDIT: LOL @ first video and im still watching the second video.
And for the record, neither of the two videos on a frist day, are pentecostal decent. If anything id say charismatic, and yes there is a difference.
And when they pray in thounges i get a weird felling, and i can tell many of them are faking. That woman is trouble, and i would not believe what she says.
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christian terrorist training camp
Impossible, they're white.
*Uses spraypaint bomb with earthtone colors*
They're brown now, bust 'em DHS!
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christian terrorist training camp
Impossible, they're white.
*Uses spraypaint bomb with earthtone colors*
They're brown now, bust 'em DHS!
That would be funny if it werent so true. Is Europe similar in this attitude?
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I get it! This is what they are missing in a state run education establishment http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=6180780&nav=9Tai (http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=6180780&nav=9Tai)
She should have the right to teach her own kids but she was blatantly wrong about science not proving anything. What would be more correct is science doesnt prove everything. Regardless, the state is not the 3rd parent and should not be. Just because you believe that evolution is the only theory of credience and that anyone who doesnt teach it as truth and 100% completely proven beyond the shadow of a doubt fact (like the existence of gravity) is a stupid idiotic buffoon guilty of child abuse and should have social services take the child away and stick him in a foster home to goto public education processing.
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I get it! This is what they are missing in a state run education establishment http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=6180780&nav=9Tai (http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=6180780&nav=9Tai)
Relevance? Or are we seriously meant to be taking a singular scandal as an example of, ummm, one of the biggest education systems in the world? That's about as valid as finding a home-schooling parent convicted of abusing their child and setting it as the truth for all homeschooling.
She should have the right to teach her own kids but she was blatantly wrong about science not proving anything. What would be more correct is science doesnt prove everything. Regardless, the state is not the 3rd parent and should not be. Just because you believe that evolution is the only theory of credience and that anyone who doesnt teach it as truth and 100% completely proven beyond the shadow of a doubt fact (like the existence of gravity) is a stupid idiotic buffoon guilty of child abuse and should have social services take the child away and stick him in a foster home to goto public education processing.
Evolution is the only theory of credence; that's not a belief, it's scentific fact (the same as gravity is the only theory of credence for 'why things don't wot fall off into t'sky'). The problem of things like this is that it's destroying the kids education by actively ruining their capacity for independent thought and consideration - if it isn't contradicted then there is a risk these children will grow up, and they simply won't have any career prospects because they've been brought up as drones dependent on following their parents' opinions. Another which strikes me is, with no state curriculum imposed in some way (such as the, ummm, School of the Air used in the Ozzie outback IIRC), how do you know these kids aren't being brought up as illiterate bigots or racists?
I didn't really understand what you were on about for the most of that sentence, though.
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I get it! This is what they are missing in a state run education establishment http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=6180780&nav=9Tai (http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=6180780&nav=9Tai)
yeah they need to be homeschooled! (http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/81570/Evangelist_Mom_On_Global_Warming_Evolution_and_Reationism.html)
ahhh hahahahaha........
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I get it! This is what they are missing in a state run education establishment http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=6180780&nav=9Tai (http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=6180780&nav=9Tai)
Dam.. w t.....f?
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I get it! This is what they are missing in a state run education establishment http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=6180780&nav=9Tai (http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=6180780&nav=9Tai)
Wow that look out must be really good.
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In effect, she really is building an "Army of God.
You sure its God she's building an army for?
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It is an "Army of God," it's just not for God.
Same thing with soldiers in the Mideast. They claim to be soldiers of God, not for God.