Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Turey on March 22, 2007, 05:24:01 pm
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I was wondering when we'd get an explanation.
Kind of a shock to hit refresh and see the index page move around. :lol:
I like the layout, but it might be better with FreeSpace above Community Projects... I'm not sure. :doubt:
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It's sort of a question of which is HLP's 'focus', is it the SCP or is it Freespace/Modding, the two sort of go hand in hand, certainly, what brings people here is the SCP, what keeps people here is the modding, so it's kinda hard for me to say which I think should be first.
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If you think I'm still here because of a game that's this old, you're nuts. I'm still here for the community aspect and I'll bet money quite a few others are too.
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I forget why I'm still here.
Which is why I like the old way better.
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If you think I'm still here because of a game that's this old, you're nuts. I'm still here for the community aspect and I'll bet money quite a few others are too.
The community didnt go anywhere. IT's only got a door in the back, now, rather than on the street.
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Wow, finally.
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It's good to see some changes with this, even if they did come six months after they were suggested. :p However, the Freespace forums would make more sense coming before the community projects. I'm actually not sure why they are even in separate sections. The support board can also be pushed to the bottom, as it's not all that active.
If you think I'm still here because of a game that's this old, you're nuts. I'm still here for the community aspect and I'll bet money quite a few others are too.
There are also many that aren't. I come here mainly for the Freespace content, and gaming discussion in general to a lesser extent. There are better communities out there if you only want to chat about random stuff.
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The question is, was it at the top of the Forums because it was the lifeblood, or was it the lifeblood because it was at the top?
I suppose we'll find out :)
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Ugh. Like it or not, the Hard Light subforum has always been what's kept people here in the long term. I'm sure it feels good to put the main projects on top, but from a functional standoint it's just idiotic.
And no CP, we're pretty much a shining beacon of intelligence and civility in comparison to the rest of the internet when it comes to random discussion. Not as compelling right now as when we had Stryke and Tiara around, but still, vyper is absolutely correct.
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You haven't looked around hard enough. :p He is quite correct, but if the main purposes of HLP are as Goober stated, one might also ask how much of a difference it would make if the HL section was less active.
I do see what you're saying about the hosted project forums, as only a handful of them are updated regularly, but there is little question about having the Freespace stuff above HL in my opinion.
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It's an absolute testament to HLP intelligence when Hard Light is now under Stupid Stuff. :lol:
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but if the main purposes of HLP are as Goober stated
Which is exactly what I disagree with. It'd be great and all if we could get BWO and MT finished so we could actually have something Freespacey to talk about (The SCP can't keep it up forever), but we've been a community first site for years, and that's the strategy that will keep us going as long as possible.
And secondly, flaming used to fun and entertaining, now it's like "oh god no an arguement!" It's not the increased quantity of flaming that's the problem, it's the declining quality. We just need to start working at it again, that's all. :p
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I think that it should be restored to how it was... I'm here because this forum is boring without the lively gaming chat and random hardlight forum. Its not stupid stuff... we debate there and it keeps us entertained. All work and no play is much worse then all play and no work. We still have all those projects going on, though not everyone works on those aspects of the game. I myself spend alot of time online talking to Mobius (FRED stuff) on MSN and post in Hard Light.
The main purposes of HLP is to be a community that has talented coders, 3d artists, and storymakers. All are artists, though just doing your art is not very fun. I myself am a storymaker; I don't post in the FRED section because of my own campaign; we make progress every day we're both on MSN.
Anyways... can you just restore it please? It may be alot of flaming and arguing, though thats what its there for. There are some discussions that are interesting and lively.
Community is front and centre in HLP; you're moving it rear and off-stage. Bad move.
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It's not actually there for flaming and arguing, it's there for general discussion, that could be anything from talking about our lives to projects in real life etc, not just for finding reasons to yell at each other.
Nothing has gone anywhere, the Discussion forum still exists as 'Off Topic', considering this is a site that was formed around Freespace 2 and the modding of it, that is what it is.
As Taris said, you haven't lost your chance to flame and argue, it's merely been moved somewhere less prominent so it's not the first thing people see when they come here.
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How about this... return Hard Light out of here and once flaming starts in a topic, move it to a flaming section? Community should be front-and-center. I don't hate anyone on this forum who disagrees with me. At least put off-topic back toward the front. I would expect this site to be dead within 1 month if it was only about modding FS2. Community makes longevity, modding doesn't. At least our sister-station is still running (last I heard).
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I forget why I'm still here.
Can I agree with you but still take your money?
Thank God the General Discussion is still here. I thought for a moment that you guys had finally lost it and decided to torch the place. I don't mind the new layout, as long as everything that supposed to be there is still there. Which, oddly enough, is the same view I take towards plastic surgery.
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See? It's comments like that that make this place go. :p
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:lol: Those comments won't stop, nor will HLP GenDis, but this place really ought to work in order of priority, Freespace 2 and the SCP first, yelling and throwing bananas at each other, second :p
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:lol: Those comments won't stop, nor will HLP GenDis, but this place really ought to work in order of priority, Freespace 2 and the SCP first, yelling and throwing bananas at each other, second :p
Yep, that's going into the sig. :lol:
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Gah. Your priorities are messed up. You think people would rather come to discuss an error in Fred2Open for two hours (which is what we're reduced to unless those bloody campaigns get finished), or throw banana pies at each other? That's what I thought. :p
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No. You should have real lives rather than sitting here arguing for two hours... So stop whining.:rolleyes:
I swear, this is more like an argument for the sake of arguing. Like as if we were at a retirement home, and they moved Bingo from Monday to Tuesday night...
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Geez. You'd think the veteran admins would be the most conservative of all the people here.
All you have to do is move Hard Light back up and the arguing stops. :p
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Why? So new members can click it and see threads like "Hate Democrats? Well masturbate to this!"?
Is that the first impression you want to give?
Get over yourselves. Scroll down to the stupid stuff section where those discussions belong.
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That thread did sound really really stupid.
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Yessir, Captain Tightpants. :p
pssst...just change the title then....
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Why? So new members can click it and see threads like "Hate Democrats? Well masturbate to this!"?
Is that the first impression you want to give?
Get over yourselves. Scroll down to the stupid stuff section where those discussions belong.
Well, it's not as if "Freespace" isn't right below Hard Light, Hard Light Art, and Games&Gaming on the old layout. It's just a short scroll to get past said General Discussion.
Admittedly, the only reason I really come to HLP anymore is for the political discussions. People just come up with creative thread titles. :p
If we're really worried about "business first" or ease for new members to find the Freespace sections (which take up 85% of the forums anyway), we should just do shortcuts that would cut down to Freespace, Community Projects, and Hosted Projects sections respectively.
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No. You should have real lives rather than sitting here arguing for two hours... So stop whining.:rolleyes:
I swear, this is more like an argument for the sake of arguing. Like as if we were at a retirement home, and they moved Bingo from Monday to Tuesday night...
Real lives? I usually browse while I have nothing to do... after Mobius gets off MSN and while im at school in accounting. Theres not many things you can do at my school without getting in trouble... throwing banana-cream pies online is alot better then in real life.
Anyways... why not just move those to a new off-topic section and leave sensible topics back in Hard Light?
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Didn't you used to be the queen of spam Snipesey?
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Politics have no place here, though. They accomplish absolutely nothing. As Flipside has said time and again: No one has ever had their opinion changed in any of these debates. All they do is cause fights and get people monkeyed. If I had my way there'd be none of that here, honestly.
No. You should have real lives rather than sitting here arguing for two hours... So stop whining.:rolleyes:
I swear, this is more like an argument for the sake of arguing. Like as if we were at a retirement home, and they moved Bingo from Monday to Tuesday night...
Real lives? I usually browse while I have nothing to do... after Mobius gets off MSN and while im at school in accounting. Theres not many things you can do at my school without getting in trouble... throwing banana-cream pies online is alot better then in real life.
Anyways... why not just move those to a new off-topic section and leave sensible topics back in Hard Light?
Because "hard light" is off topic.
Didn't you used to be the king of spam Snipesey?
If you dig back far enough, surely. Im sure if we went back in your past far enough you were a n00b of some sort as well. So lets try and leave personal attacks out of here, eh? THat's the kind of crap that got hard light renamed in the first place.
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That was more of a complement than an insult silly :p
back when spam was fun...
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Meh. Spam is fun. Hard light isn't spam. It's arguments and flames.
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God, what happened to all the fun in this place?
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Politics weaseled in.
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Since you're so "down to business" now, why is "Games and Gaming" above Freespace?
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April Fool's is coming up - how about a week of politics ban and spamming?
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From someone who knows what he is talking about:
Change the focus, make this place about something other than politics, take the focus OFF what the main forum currently advertises HLP to be, find someone to be "in charge" and let them set teh tempo and direction, get back to the art, advertise this place as a resource for people looking for cool game art, be a "GarageGames" for modders and artists, focus on those TC's again, focus on the SCP. ANY focus would be good, pick one, pick all, pick something. The first thing anyone sees when they come here is that train wreck of a a forum "Hard Light." Damn difficult to tell what sets this place apart. Damn difficult to tell this place used to be a hive of talent.
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My argument is simply that we should try to fix it rather then bury it since it made this place so great in the firstplace.
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If you have suggestions, post. I personally think politics and religion threads have no place here, and see them as the root of our evils...
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The thing is, we have lots of forums, making another one for off-topic is not only adding to that list, but moving the stuff around is work for whatever Moderator is online at the time.
Now, I'll admit I'm far from the worlds most active FS2 modder atm, I more than likely have more posts in GenDis than any other forum, and with 10k posts, that's a lot. But really, it's no more trouble to scroll past Freespace and down to GenDis than it was to scroll past GenDis down to Freespace.
I, for one, would rather not have to read every thread in GenDis to make sure it doesn't need transferring to another forum, or put up with things like being told I'm not 'fair' because I moved one topic, but not another etc, which is bound to happen.
This way, everyone gets what they want, there's still somewhere for those off-topic rants, the coders can use the SCP on their resumes' without being too embarassed to send prospective employers to look at their work, and new visitors get directly introduced the what we have achieved here.
From my point of view, everyone who takes part in the SCP or the FSU or the projects should be proud of themselves, and I'd rather people saw that side of the site a little more :)
All it really takes is one extra roll on the mouse-wheel, is that really such a terrible blow?
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I'd be able to put up with it if HL were above the hosted projects, but this just isn't a long term solution.
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If you have suggestions, post. I personally think politics and religion threads have no place here, and see them as the root of our evils...
You forget that the original "OT-Religion" was probably the single greatest thread we ever had.
I absolutely agree there's a problem, I just don't think this is much of a solution.
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We're experimenting with a new layout for HLP, as we try to focus more on our core "business" -- that is, modding, art, and gaming, specifically for FreeSpace -- and less on the political discussions and flame wars that have been so common in Hard Light. Please pardon our dust. :)
Wouldn't that warrant Freespace specific gaming discussion be above the stuff currently in "Games and Gaming"?
This is a Freespace forum after all.
EDIT: Meh, I'm done now, I'm starting to argue for the sake of arguing.
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Politics have no place here, though. They accomplish absolutely nothing. As Flipside has said time and again: No one has ever had their opinion changed in any of these debates. All they do is cause fights and get people monkeyed. If I had my way there'd be none of that here, honestly.
While nobody's mind might get changed, I love having political discussions just to hear other people's opinions on the world situation or on particular topics. You don't always have to argue to win; you argue to learn. :)
Agreed though; the people with hot heads really ought to just chill out when it comes to politics. It's not worth getting monkeyed.
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Civil arguments are fine. It's not only ok, but good to compare and contrast different views and parties and religions... but that's not what happens, as we all know. Someone always gets 'butthurt.' :sigh:
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The political threads were like TaS: they were great at first.
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Politics have no place here, though. They accomplish absolutely nothing. As Flipside has said time and again: No one has ever had their opinion changed in any of these debates. All they do is cause fights and get people monkeyed. If I had my way there'd be none of that here, honestly.
While nobody's mind might get changed, I love having political dis cussions just to hear other people's opinions on the world situation or on particular topics. You don't always have to argue to win; you argue to learn. :)
Agreed though; the people with hot heads really ought to just chill out when it comes to politics. It's not worth getting monkeyed.
See? That's the point.
You can learn things from those discussions. I do agree there are some hot heads that need to hush up too. It's just, what's so bad about discussing those things no one wants to talk about? In all honesty, this place has probably taught me more about politics and the opinions of other places in the world than any school could have.
I understand that you don't want this to be the focus of the forum though, and that's fine. It's the admins' choice.
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Well, they have been sucky ever since we stopped egging on Liberator, and that's not the admins' fault.
edit- Well, more like ever since Kazan went crazy bat**** loco.
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edit- Well, more like when Kazan went crazy bat**** loco.
sshhh, we don't talk about that :nervous:
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Civil arguments are fine. It's not only ok, but good to compare and contrast different views and parties and religions... but that's not what happens, as we all know. Someone always gets 'butthurt.' :sigh:
I think that's mostly because people have become so familiar as to where everybody stands on the issues and will often get tired of hearing the same "rhetoric" over and over again that they'll just tell each other to shutup rather than getting into a discussion. We're different from most forums in that we have people who can cite sources or give credible information to back up their beliefs, rather than just "lol ur gay u like gay people dont u go die fag" like other forums.
I miss the days when I still didn't have people like aldo, karajorma, Kosh, or Kazan totally figured out; it was always interesting to try to analyze fellow forumites and see where they stand on issues, and then try to have a meaningful debate. I love it when people can play off each other with ideas and--maybe--walk away with a viewpoint they never considered before, or something totally new.
Sadly, it usually results in someone pulling out either a typical response per their views, or slamming someone else for their own views. That sucks.
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Right now, the politics here sound like an arguement in a retirement home. At least with Libby we had some real rage going.
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I liked the old layout better.
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Eh, just move HL above Hosted and I'll be satisfied.
edit -This may just be my highest posting day ever. And I'm over 900 finally. Yay!
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I'm still here for the community aspect and I'll bet money quite a few others are too.
And frankly, that "community aspect" has driven a fair few away.
Its been pure bull****, and a waste of time for months. HLP admins need to decide what they want in a forum, one way or the other. Both is not an option. You want crap, I want crap free. Those are incompatible desires.
I appaluad this change, even if it was me who something to do with badgering them into it.
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Toss the community aspect aside and what you have is a dead forum. And a dead project.
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I think things like the SCP are vibrant, living projects with extremely talented people working on them.
Alive and well BECAUSE of the community. Which is not equivalent to what "Hard Light" had become.
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Well duh. But that doesn't mean anything if you don't have people to download what you release.
Well then, let's actually try to save this place and fix up HL.
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Sounds like you are confuising the "community" with threads about masterbating to the demise of the democrats, how the UK is now the new Nazi germany, or whatever the flavor of the day political argument ticked the fancy of the denizens.
Two entirely different things, from where I sit.
Consider that first time users visit to the forum. What's the impression you want to set?
Is this a place where cool things happen? SCP, mods, upgrade projects, extremely cool TC's, great artists making quality game art?
Or is this just another collection of polarized random assholes with opinions du jour and talking points from the liberal/conservative agenda?
What is that community that everyone seems to "love" so much?
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misc typos suck
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Think about it before you just hit reply for the sake of arguing.
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Of course it's degenerated over the past few years, but that doesn't change the fact that Hard Light is the community now. That wasn't always the case, but since the dearth of really major campaign project releases, FS just hasn't be able to hold it up alone (no matter how productive and brilliant the SCP gets, it needs something new to be used for). We don't need to be pushing HL into the background, we need to stop being asses.
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Or is this just another collection of polarized random assholes with opinions du jour and talking points from the liberal/conservative agenda?
What is that community that everyone seems to "love" so much?
Okay I know I'm going to be reaching way back in the past, but I give you two examples.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,7527.0.html
The infamous OT- Religion thread. IMO the best HLP discussion ever. Went from a opinion thread about religion in general to an endless discussion about everything from nationalism to the nature of life. Just about everyone who posted in that thread got offended at least twice. Only it wasn't repetitive and tired like all religion topics nowadays. It was frelling brilliant (well, for the first ~30 pages). It's still entertaining to read, after 5 years.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,8760.175.html
"The Big Bad HLP Sex and Dating Thread" Got turned into a war between everyone else and CP who was try to argue that sex won't be necessary in the future. :p
It was stuff like that that made me love this place. That and watching Stryke attack everybody.
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I swear, this is more like an argument for the sake of arguing. Like as if we were at a retirement home, and they moved Bingo from Monday to Tuesday night...
:lol: :lol:
That's exactly what it is. And we all love it. God help you if you change Matlock from 3pm to 5pm - then you're going to see a real revolution. Jenkins in Room 307 used to be in the Marines don'tcha know - he'll kick yerr scrawny ass jes' like he did to Charlies back in Korea!
Like Flipside said, this forum is big enough to accomodate all topics. I personally don't mind the new layout, and I don't think the majority of people have any problem with it. Hard Light has gone through so many changes over the years, it's just part of the process now.
...though I'm still waiting for you to admit to posting in all the political threads under and alt username to get your political fix and let your murderous rage out. Flame on baby, flame on!
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Why is this thread a discussion?
Change is hard. Deal with it.
The End.
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Dont fool yourself, BD, this is just to placate the masses ;)
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HEY RANDOM PERSON
INSULT
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This thread may very soon end up in the padded cell... :rolleyes:
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HEY RANDOM PERSON
INSULT
RETORT
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HEY RANDOM PERSON
INSULT
RETORT
COUNTER-RETORT
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NONSENSICAL COMMENT ABOUT FISH
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Dont fool yourself, BD, this is just to placate the masses ;)
All the more reason to dump the pointless and very stupid discussion overboard.
"Waaaaagh my political threads are gone, waaaaaaaagh my community is no longer the focus, waaaaaagh now I have to scroll all the way down to post about the size of my penis, waaaaaaaagh I wet the bed again..."
Seriously. This place used to kick ass when Hard Light Art was the forum you visited first. I had respect for this place back then, when it was obvious I was in the company of people with skills. Today not so much. Maybe things can change hopefully.
Edit: Nice touch on the "Posts in this forum don't count towards your total". That ought to cull 75% of the retarded posts right off. Good one.
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NONSENSICAL COMMENT ABOUT FISH
WORDS OF PRAISE FOR FISHFOOD
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"Waaaaagh my political threads are gone, waaaaaaaagh my community is no longer the focus, waaaaaagh now I have to scroll all the way down to post about the size of my penis, waaaaaaaagh I wet the bed again..."
Seriously. This place used to kick ass when Hard Light Art was the forum you visited first. I had respect for this place back then, when it was obvious I was in the company of people with skills. Today not so much. Maybe things can change hopefully.
That's great: open condescension for the people who make this a thriving, active community rather than a deserted ghost-town. Don't get me wrong, I remember the good old days with nothing but fondness, and it's a bit strange not being able to recognize half the names of the people around, but like you said - things change. Do you honestly expect people to be as enthusiastic about the SCP as they were three years ago? Do you expect new models and fanfic to spark the same interest as they did back in the day?
The fact that this place exists at all is something I am thankful for every day. It could very easily not. How many games can sustain an active fan base this long? And yet here you are, *****ing that things have gone too off topic. I count myself lucky that there are still people making mods and TCs and so on, which I can download the play if I so choose. Like I said, I have absolutely no problem with the changes, nor the desire to focus on the FS2-related aspects of the board, but only the attitudes I see behind some of choices.
I don't know how you intended it, but what I hear is: "You stupid, talentless nobodies - most of you aren't worthy of the effort we put in. Maybe once we clear out the riff-raff, HLP will finally be clean and orderly again."
Good day to you, sir!
*flaps cape*
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Good, you have excellent hearing.
Note: Not that I'm any different or on a high horse. Sure I may be involved in some projects but at the end of the day, my only real skill is flying in the damn game, and stacked against true artistic or coding talent, that's like cleaning the ****ing toilets.
However, if the place gets its shine on once more, you won't be hearing from me a lot. Assholes like me have no place in a productive community, and if anything, I'll probably contribute to the "Ghost Town" effect you so eloquently describe.
However I'd take a "Ghost Town" any day to lurk over, than the ability to post in some **** infested cesspool that this place has been for the past YEARS. Man, if I was taylor I would've ditched this bull**** a long time ago. All that hard work and progress, for WHAT? Getting people on the board with pretty pictures, having them realize that veterancy is the only valued currency around here, and then have them go post in the main Hard Light Forums (most active and top ones) where the thread of the day is "Kazan masturbates to political topic #2956", and have them try to up their post count there so they'd mean something around here and have their word count for something.
Maybe what this place should be teaching them instead is to open 3ds Max or Photoshop and start doing some **** that can compete with what the rest of the talented people are putting out.
The point is, know your goddamn place. You belong on the bottom, unless you have something to contribute to the top.
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One way to contribute (never mind the fact that we contribute more than all except the most materially productive modders/programmers simply by being here): if the admins are making mistakes, you can contribute by telling them that they're wrong. I'd rather not have this place run like 1930s Japan.
You know a place is gonna die when we start getting the wonderful eilitism Inquisitor is sprouting. Reminds me of LOAF, actually.
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I'd rather this place go out due to sheer apathy then a few elitist snobs driving everyone away, thank you very much.
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You know a place is gonna die when we start getting the wonderful eilitism Inquisitor is sprouting. Reminds me of LOAF, actually.
He's sprouting elitism? He's condemning it... :wtf:
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The whole "you forumites are all useless, only I deserve to have my voice heard" kinda strikes me as fitting the definition.
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If that's the only thing you got from what he wrote, you need to start working on your inferiority complexes.
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I dont think he's saying that at all... More that he's complaining that the forumites seem to be becoming more and more insulated, and acting as if the newbies arent important. Sticking to the same arguments over and over.... and.. eh.. there's a lot in the support forum that backs up his posts. You probably only see this one.
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He's pissed with all the name calling bull**** that's been going on in HL, which is fine. But he also seems to think that the GenDis has never contributed anything to this place, and thus does not deserve a voice. Well, guess what - I disagree! :p
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He's saying it doesnt deserve prominence. And it really doesn't. It's like the anus of the forum...
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It's the anus of every forum when allowed to grow like that.
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Believing that 9/10 people are worthless assholes because they're not Picasso is not a very good way to live. And it's an even worse way to run a community. This is not, to the best of my knowledge, a cloistered community of artistic elites who have decided to sequester themselves from the great unwashed masses. And here's a question for you: do you think that Bobbaou, DaBrain and all the other productive people give two ****s that the rest of us don't contribute? My guess, and I could be wrong, is that they're just as happy as anyone to have a place where like-minded Freespace fans can gather - which, if you're unaware, is kind of a very, very niche subject. I would be as thrilled as anyone, certainly as much as you, if HLP specifically and space-sims generally were to experience a renaissance of talent and initiative. But culling the herd to make room for a resurgence that may never come is....of questionable wisdom.
You would rather see an empty church than the pews filled with average Joes? Fine, your prerogative, but I'm just saying that that's a really good way to run a community into the ground. And I'm wondering how many of the Powers That Be around here share such a fatalistic attitude.
Here's a heads up: every single forum on the Internet has an OT section, and in almost all cases it is the most active. People like chattering. Yes, the vapid, mindless, blabber-mouthed masses like talking about politics and cars and what they ate for breakfast. On every message board this exists in parrellell to the main subject (be it cars, Linux or obscure 1920's German Expressionist films) not in competition with it. Snipes had it exactly right - the General Discussion is like an old-folks home that argues just to pass the time away. And I have absolutely no problem with that - it's not a sin and it's not abnormal, in fact it's a great way to forget about all the **** going on in your life by poking fun at the **** going on in everyone else's life. 95% of the content on the Net serves no useful purposes - our dear little message boards are no exception.
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Freespace fans can gather in the Freespace forums where they will post about Freespace.
They may NOT gather in a forum that allows Freespace fans to act like ****ing retards.
That makes nobody happy. Don't invert ****.
The point however, was what to focus on. You will still be able to act like a retard in those forums below. However, having those forums up first and foremost, is the absolute definition of idiocy. It defines what the community is about, and I'd rather the community be about **** taylor does, than what you have to write in the latest thread on democrats.
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Firstly, the fraction of **** on the GenDis forums isn't a majority, not by a goddamn mile. Don't invert ****.
Secondly, before we had all this ****, we were this place, where stuff actually happened, every day, while all the artists labored for years at whatever their project was. In terms of actual production, we did more than about 90% of the artists here, because - guess what - only a small fraction ever finished what they promised -THAT'S why it got so prominent. What I am proposing is merely to clean GenDis up and make it productive again, rather than stuff it under the bed.
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It makes me happy to see 50 posts a day instead of 1 per day. And it would make me even happier if I saw 500 per day, especially if some proportionate number of those contained models, textures and source-code mods which could be enjoyed by all. Fact is that the anus of this and every forum is what keeps many (I won't say most, because that's not true here, but is in most other places) of the people around.
Again, my problem is not on the new focus, which changes so little as to be hardly worth discussing, but rather the mentality which says that all posts (and posters) which do not contribute materially are worthless clutter and exist only at the mercy of True Keepers of the Flame.
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I like how the forum did its routine backup just as everyone was scrambling to post. :D
It's a bit of a stretch to call the HL section a "community" these days, when people are often at each others' throats. As some others have said, the HL section has become a pretty sorry place during the last two years and is a far cry from what it was when the site was started. If you want a place to vent on political issues, there are plenty of other forums out there made for that purpose.
That being said, I don't have a problem with the current arrangement. Most forums do have dedicated OT and P&N sections, although perhaps more to keep that stuff from seeping into the other sections than anything else. What I saw as the issue was that the arguments had become the most prominent aspect of the place. HL actually does contain some interesting discussions (that careers thread is one example), but with all the crap mixed among them, I rarely post in there these days.
I still believe that the Freespace sections should come before the community projects though, in the order they used to be. Freespace is after all the focus of the site and everything else basically stems from that.
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Not to mention that the last big thing that came out of the hosted projects was what, the BWO demo? Inferno R1?
That being said, I don't have a problem with the current arrangement. Most forums do have dedicated OT and P&N sections, although perhaps more to keep that stuff from seeping into the other sections than anything else. What I saw as the issue was that the arguments had become the most prominent aspect of the place. HL actually does contain some interesting discussions (that careers thread is one example), but with all the crap mixed among them, I rarely post in there these days.
Well here's our chance to clean it up at last.
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The Padded Cell
Here is where all the stupid stuff is sent. You probably don't want to visit this place. Posts in this forum do not count towards your total.
Moderators: Charismatic, Cobra
:lol:
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If politics and religion are the main subjects that cause so much trouble, why not create a place for them and keep HL for other things aside from that?
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The politics and religion threads aren't ebola. We don't have to quarantine an area of the forum to house them. Just keep the existing form and squash em when they get out of hand.
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Posts in the pub don't count? You've got to be ****ting me. Having a junk forum is enough. This'll just increase spam in the FS forums.
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This. Is. Bollocks.
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The Padded Cell
Here is where all the stupid stuff is sent. You probably don't want to visit this place. Posts in this forum do not count towards your total.
Moderators: Charismatic, Cobra
:lol:
Exactly.
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Go eat a banana.
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Goddamned, the layout changes every 5 minuters now. I like the focus-on-projects-and-less-on-retarded-****-approach though :yes:
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Come on guyyys
I do think this is a generally okay idea, but Off Topic really ought to be above Hosted Projects. It just seems like it's more buried than it needs to be. And I don't get why the Art forum is in Games and Gaming, that kind of sends the message that it's exclusively for fan fiction.
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Let me add my voice to those other dissenters who thing that this is ****ing lame.
First off the suggestion that we can 'go and join another forum for politics' is bloody stupid... it's the personalities of this place that keep me coming back and I doubt all of us are going to be of one mind and go elsewhere. I spend hardly any time reading the FS fora any more, apart from an occasional look at the SCP and the modding ones to check to see if anyone's released anything new. And it's also insulting to the rest of us to infer we're incapable of filtering things out that we don't want to see.
The only real criteria for dividing up a forum is to prevent large volumes of information from swamping any one particular item, which is a problem we've never had - it's not like you can miss a forum topic because it drops off the bottom of the listing after a day or so. What's happened is simply the outcome of the heavy handed approach the admins seem to love these days, and it benefits no-one. If anything, it makes things inconsistent because all those thousands of old debate threads will no doubt languish in this forum forever more.
Change for the better is good. This is not one of those times.
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:rolleyes: It's like watching a train crash in slow motion...
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Politics have no place here, though. They accomplish absolutely nothing. As Flipside has said time and again: No one has ever had their opinion changed in any of these debates. All they do is cause fights and get people monkeyed. If I had my way there'd be none of that here, honestly.
you know I used to be a big Bush/Iraq War supporter, arguments here played no small part in my thinking process and changes there in.
this forum is running around with it's head cut off, what ever happened to talking this **** over with us?
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Yes, but was it the arguments where people were putting forward logical arguments or was it the ones where people were going 'Amerika Sux!! Nazi Fascist Dictatorship USA ahoy!1!111!'?
Personally, I think the boards have been over divided now, but I can understand what's trying to be achieved here, I just think possibly the pendulum swung a little too far under its own inertia, but I'm willing to wait and see how things go.
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swung!? :wtf: the first I hear about this is I refresh the page and everythings gone? what sort of implementation is that?
a non-moderated argument forum is a good idea IMO, but A)carveing up what is here already and )B putting everything at the bottom of the page, not to mention my personal favorite c) not telling or asking anyone about it, is quite posably the worst idea to have ever been inflicted upon this board, and I include all of the april 1st **** in that.
and for the record all of them, when someone else is an idiot it makes me stand back for a second and make sure I'm not being one also.
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Eh, change it from "Stupid stuff" to "Random Stuff" or "Miscellaneous" or "Everything in General & Nothing in Particular" or something like that... just because there's no stated purpose doesn't make it stupid.
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Yes, but was it the arguments where people were putting forward logical arguments or was it the ones where people were going 'Amerika Sux!! Nazi Fascist Dictatorship USA ahoy!1!111!'?
Personally, I think the boards have been over divided now, but I can understand what's trying to be achieved here, I just think possibly the pendulum swung a little too far under its own inertia, but I'm willing to wait and see how things go.
Isn't that what moderation was for?
I've probably learnt more from arguing here than anything else, but when I see perfectly polite, interesting and perhaps even educational stuff is being arbitrarily moved to the 'padded cell' for no good reason, I can't help but get the gut instinct to bugger off and never return - and i doubt I'm alone in that.
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If they buggered off without arguing about what was done, I wonder how good of an arguer they were...
But "Padded Cell" and "Stupid Stuff"... think of something else. Please? I could care less, but I think others would find it insulting
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Meh, I think it means more to lurkers than actual members, I mean I come in through "Show unread posts since last visit" and pick a thread title that interests me. So I hardly realise there are sub forums, it's all Hard Light Productions to me! :D
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I just noticed it 2 minutes ago, doing exactly that... :D
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People seem to forget that opinions carry with it a certain ammount of emotion. When discussing a subject, someone is bound to feel personally involved with it. The General Discussions forum is not wikipedia!
Many of those so called political posts that most admins seem to dislike can serve a purpose. Personally, through the years I've been here it was thanks to them that I saw the political changes in the world and what people from diferent countries thought about them, either the changes were in their own countries or not. People tend to focus on those that post and not on those that read those posts. Most often in those threads those who are arguing have something to contribute or disagree about (for better or worse). These are the most unlikely users to have their minds changed. What happens in the background can be totally diferent.
Anyway, at the very least put FreeSpace related contents above Games and Gaming. If not, the arguement about "what is this community focus" becomes a bit.... "unfocused".
[/rant]
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Anyway, at the very least put FreeSpace related contents above Games and Gaming. If not, the arguement about "what is this community focus" becomes a bit.... "unfocused".
That part I agree on... should we make a poll, or would that only serve to make things worse?
If you did do a poll, make sure that it included several different layouts, and was editable in case one needed to be added / changed later. What do you think?
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Personally, it actually makes more work for the moderators, which isn't something I'm happy about in the short term. As I said earlier, having a seperate forum for 'silly stuff' just means we have to read through and decide what goes where. Yes, that's what a Mod is supposed to do, but when things start subdividing to this level, it gets harder and harder to give the appearance of being 'impartial'.
As I said before, I don't want to start having to deal with being accused to being biased because I moved one thread and not another, and those situations have already started, though I've not moved anything personally from the new forums yet.
I'll agree that the debate in here is interesting, and, yes, I've learned a lot of things from here too, it's usually just a very visible few who tend to ruin, but as Taristin pointed out, I can fully understand why the Admin don't want first time visitors to the Forum to see threads like 'Cluster**** to the Whitehouse!' etc as their first point of call.
For my own point of view, I think your thread was moved too early, had it turned into an evolution vs creationism debate then it should have been moved, I'll go on record with that.
That part I agree on... should we make a poll, or would that only serve to make things worse?
I think that would be a bad idea at this moment in time. Admin are in 'Benevolent Dictatorship' mode right now, give it a day or two and let things cool off a little ;)
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Personally, it actually makes more work for the moderators, which isn't something I'm happy about in the short term. As I said earlier, having a seperate forum for 'silly stuff' just means we have to read through and decide what goes where. Yes, that's what a Mod is supposed to do, but when things start subdividing to this level, it gets harder and harder to give the appearance of being 'impartial'.
As I said before, I don't want to start having to deal with being accused to being biased because I moved one thread and not another, and those situations have already started, though I've not moved anything personally from the new forums yet.
I'll agree that the debate in here is interesting, and, yes, I've learned a lot of things from here too, it's usually just a very visible few who tend to ruin, but as Taristin pointed out, I can fully understand why the Admin don't want first time visitors to the Forum to see threads like 'Cluster**** to the Whitehouse!' etc as their first point of call.
For my own point of view, I think your thread was moved too early, had it turned into an evolution vs creationism debate then it should have been moved, I'll go on record with that.
a) why? I mean, if it's a perfectly rational debate, why move it? Will we move debates on things like games or new BSG vs old as well?
and
b) to Padded Cell?
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... but there should be a separate place for civilized debate; if it gets nasty, then throw it in the padded cell. I don't like the idea of all debates automatically going to the padded cell. See, if you only throw nasty debates in the padded cell, then it makes sense that debates would be less likely to get nasty. Also give the offending parties a chance to edit their posts and have the thread moved back to the "Debating Hall" or whatever you would call it.
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a) why? I mean, if it's a perfectly rational debate, why move it? Will we move debates on things like games or new BSG vs old as well?
and
b) to Padded Cell?
The way the Forums are set up at the moment, which is what I have to work around, then if it became a debate it would go to the Meeting Hall, if it turned in an flamefest it would go to the Padded Cell.
Of course, then we have to deal with 'What is the difference between a flamefest and a debate', and everyones' differing opinion.
To be honest, I'm pissed off, not because of the move, but because I'm simply working in a system that appeared to me as quickly as to everyone else, I don't agree with all of it, but I'm sure as hell not going to take the flak for it either.
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The sky has apparently fallen. Honestly, I'd rather a little fluidity, try some different things, see what it actually looks like rather than *****, piss and moan. Someone accused me of not offering concrete suggestions, they happened to have been wrong, but the advice was good in and of itself. Don't tell me its ****ed up, tell me how to un**** it. Myself, and a number of other community veterans seem to think the status quo WAS fubar. We had started, more or less quietly, to fade away. I've been "in"this community for 9 going on 10 years. Seeing someone who used to be an active contributor find their way back to "us" was something of a personal watershed moment for me, so I started asking the questions again. What's the focus? What's the point? Why does this place take up bandwidth? Who is in charge?
Which group are you planning on driving away? It seems that its a binary choice for most of the posters here. One or the other. If the answer is "the group you don't belong to" that means the fair few number of people who actually think this is a good idea (or at least something going in the right direction), screw them, eh?
Who's being elitist?
This place had been something to be proud of, fine work was done here. It still is, but it's been obscured by a mountain of embarrassing trash. I stopped pointing real developers here about a year ago, it wasn't worth explaining to them that no, you just have to look past the garbage for the good stuff or other caveats.
My challenge to the people who run this forum has always been: Find your focus. If this is a real, actionable start to that, I'm happy to stick around and see it through.
You want civil discussion, but telling me if you can't have it your way you'll take your toys and leave is far from civil or adult. If that's what you have learned from these debates you are proud of, maybe you need to evaluate the value of that lesson.
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... but there should be a separate place for civilized debate; if it gets nasty, then throw it in the padded cell. I don't like the idea of all debates automatically going to the padded cell. See, if you only throw nasty debates in the padded cell, then it makes sense that debates would be less likely to get nasty. Also give the offending parties a chance to edit their posts and have the thread moved back to the "Debating Hall" or whatever you would call it.
Except now we have 2 cells for throwing debate. And one example of something that was neither nasty nor a debate being moved to the 'bad' one of them.
The sky has apparently fallen. Honestly, I'd rather a little fluidity, try some different things, see what it actually looks like rather than *****, piss and moan. Someone accused me of not offering concrete suggestions, they happened to have been wrong, but the advice was good in and of itself. Don't tell me its ****ed up, tell me how to un**** it. Myself, and a number of other community veterans seem to think the status quo WAS fubar. We had started, more or less quietly, to fade away. I've been "in"this community for 9 going on 10 years. Seeing someone who used to be an active contributor find their way back to "us" was something of a personal watershed moment for me, so I started asking the questions again.
what if these changes drive away active contributors?
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Hmph. But all the fubar stuff was in "Hard-Light", correct? Why couldn't you just make the "Padded Cell" (I still think its insulting), then throw that stuff from "Hard-Light" into there, and only after fair warning to edit posts? And, like I said, once posts have been edited to carry their point across in a civil manner, move it back.
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As I said on the 'I AM NOT AMUSED' thread. CHANGE IT BACK. Please.
Long live the HLP.
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I can't be arsed to actually read any others opinions about the new layout, but here are mine:
1. It sucks
2. Rift ripoff much?
3. Where are my pants?
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But since when is it news that the Internet is about petty, pointless flaming between people who have nothing better to do. That's what the ****ing medium subsists on. Without politics and porn, the Internet would still be three guys at Harvard talking to two guys from MIT about astrophysics. What kind of elitist trip is to condemn people's most basic need to blather on with total strangers at odd hours of the night as not prim and proper enough. And I'm not even being sarcastic here - inane chatter is literally the heart and soul of this entire medium. There is a fine line between putting a focus on mods and the SCP and regarding more than half of the community, the people who don't contribute, as a barely-tolerated nuisance.
Being at each other's throats all the time, which incidentally I don't think is true (HLP is a bastion of civility compared to 90% of other forums), is not proof against community, but rather for it. The fact that I know the geopolitical opinions of some stranger living in Scotland and the musical taste of some weird little troll in Alaska is the reason I keep coming back here.
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what if these changes drive away active contributors?
What if not making them does? See what I mean about binary?
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Looks like the reorganization of the forum index, made to prevent flame wars, unleashed a big flame war in this thread... :)
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OK, so here's some constructive, actionable criticism:
Have two main Off Topic forums, same as before, Hard Light General Discusssion and Gaming Discussion. Put them where ever you like. Like I said, I've got nothing against the placement. If they're an "embarasement", fine - put them at the bottom. Absolutely no one who doesn't want to go there has to. But separating them into three or four different boards for no real reason is pointless and annoying. If real developers (who I take it don't have political opinions, tech problems, personal issues or musical tastes) want to come here and see the SCP stuff, great - it's right up there at the top. The rest of us mortals aren't going to embarass anyone. If someone regards the General Discussion as a cesspool of illiterate retards - you know, people who contribute nothing like aldo, Bobbaou, karajorma and so on, then they need never visit it. Simple solution.
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I was kind of wondering what "serious developers" that were not being invited here were doing running off to the "Hard Light" topic immediately...
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what if these changes drive away active contributors?
What if not making them does? See what I mean about binary?
Where's the evidence of that? If people were tired of the forum organisation then why haven't we seen a single complaint or suggestion to rectify the problem before yesterday? I know they're falling into one camp or the other NOW, but that's only because the issue was raised in the first place.
Let's think about it logically - I KNOW that the majority of people check the Hard Light forum as soon as they visit the site, before the others, so it makes sense to put it at the top. It seems mad to try and shift attention from it, given that the majority of people post most regularly in there.
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I think the point was to draw new people in, by focusing the members on modding the game, which is not a bad idea, but I'm not sure about the wisdom of the implementation.
EDIT: I'm sure most of the unhappy people will still be unhappy, but what if you put a button at the top to jump to the bottom of the page, or a toolbar with buttons for the 7 different sections, allowing a jump directly to that section? Also a button at the bottom allowing for a jump to the top.
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Looks like the reorganization of the forum index, made to prevent flame wars, unleashed a big flame war in this thread... :)
This isn't a flame war, this is the type of debate that I for one enjoy coming to this forum for.
As for the "non-contributors" I have one thing to say.....Although I cannot code, FRED, model, write etc. I believethat I do contribute to this forum, even in posting my opinions I am contributing. I contribute in encouraging those that "can do". By that I mean those that can code, FRED, model, write etc.
I came here for eye-candy for my most favourite game, I stay for the community and I value the opinions of everyone here. I may not agree with them but I do value them. I have learned a lot in the year or so I have visited these forums and continue to do so. I just hope that this forum and it's sub-forums continue
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EDIT: I'm sure most of the unhappy people will still be unhappy, but what if you put a button at the top to jump to the bottom of the page, or a toolbar with buttons for the 7 different sections, allowing a jump directly to that section? Also a button at the bottom allowing for a jump to the top.
Opinions?
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Considering Inquisitor works with Garage Games, I don't doubt he has the chance to meet other developers.
Look at it this way, if Inquisitor can point people here and say 'look at what these guys are achieving', it might benefit the SCP coders far more than simply seeing one of their favourite games being updated.
Basically, as Inq has stated on occasion, 'This is resume stuff', the SCP could be the tipping point between someone getting a job offer or not.
I 100% support the moving of the GenDis to the lower columns, that's fine by me, as far as the subdividing is concerned, well, I'm willing to give it a few days to cool off and see how things go, but personally, I don't think it was a good idea, testing will say whether I'm right or not.
Now, I know that HLP isn't just here to perpetuate the career of the SCP coders, but personally, the whole SCP is going to be taken a lot more seriously if the first forum with posts in that visitors come across isn't GenDis.
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What I don't understand is how this is such a big issue to some.
What does it really matter where a thread is? I for one rarely even see the main page of the forums. I go directly to "New Replies" and thereafter I check the unread stuff, and if there's some interesting topics going on, I go and read them.
So the biggest change was to rename Hard Light, create a new off-topic section for flamefest and move the General Discussion section below the topics that are originally the focus of HLP.
I for one don't really think that's a bad thing. I don't think it's a good thing either, but I lean to that side more than the other. So my opinion is positive neutral at the moment. The only suggestion I can make is to question the need for two off-topic forums, especially if the specified meaning of the other is to gather the zaniest pieces from the other, which is in my opinion a bit questionable at best. If it's off-topic and doesn't break forum rules, it should be in off-topic thread. If it breaks forum rules, the thread should be closed or violating posts moderated/removed. I don't see a reason to archive the fruits of foam-moathed flaming by sending them into Padded Cell. If they're that bad, why not just remove them or close the thread. ::)
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Rictor: Is that a lesson you learned from the constructive debates? End your constructive criticism in insults and sarcasm?
You do realize that is what I am on about right? That type of thing RIGHT there. That assumption that I think you personally are an idiot, that because things are a mess, or I (vehemnetly) disagree with your conclusions must indicate that I am an elitist asshole, a fascist, or I think you've got some congenital defect that makes your brain stop processing information. I think this is better, or at least going in the right direction. I think this gives the appearance of a site that might have some focus, that might have something to offer the rest of the internet in terms of unique content. I do not think that Rictor, Aldo, etc are illiterate morons. Quite the opposite. I just don't think the internet needs another site devoted to masterbating to the death of democrats or debating the merits of a comparison between GWB and Hitler. Apparently I am not alone in this opinion.
So, take that and put it aside, what is left? Some damn fine work by some of those self same people. Why on gods green earth wouldn't you want to brag about that? Why would you rather bury it, in favor of your endless threads about how the world has gone to ****?
The way it was WAS driving people away. Active contributors. Do they count? From what I am reading here, no, they don't. I'm not an admin. I don't want to be an admin. I want the admins to tell me what the site is for, and then I can make a personal decision whether to participate in that. I will offer suggestions, and if those suggestions sound reasonable, they may make use of those suggestions. If others offer similar suggestions, they may say "hmmm, maybe we should do something about this?"
That leaves us back at the binary question. I have little to no interest in lengthy debates on politics. I am intensely interested in the talents of people. I am intensely interested in new or old games, or doing interesting things with those games or the machines on which they run. I am intensely interested in game development, game quality art, and pursuits in line with that. I want a forum or community where I can participate in discussions about those things, something we can actually agree on, rather than how much of a twat Kazan is, or an0n's recent foray into prostitution.
That's what I want, a place that has those discussions. Leading with the "inane" is not what I want, personally. So the guys who run this site need to figure out which is the site they want to build and maintain. The one devoted to the "inane banter that comprises the Internet" or the site that used to bring modders together and showcases the accomplishments of those modders.
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(http://www.hard-light.net/images/hlp_logo_frontpage.jpg)
You have a point there.
Bring them together, then they will of course find the links for general discussion, if they want to.
EDIT: How about a drop-down link, sort of like the one for "Hosted Projects", that allows direct jump from forum main down the page to the start of the section? Or a toolbar, like I mentioned before.
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Rictor: Is that a lesson you learned from the constructive debates? End your constructive criticism in insults and sarcasm?
You do realize that is what I am on about right? That type of thing RIGHT there. That assumption that I think you personally are an idiot, that because things are a mess, or I (vehemnetly) disagree with your conclusions must indicate that I am an elitist asshole, a fascist, or I think you've got some congenital defect that makes your brain stop processing information. I think this is better, or at least going in the right direction. I think this gives the appearance of a site that might have some focus, that might have something to offer the rest of the internet in terms of unique content. I do not think that Rictor, Aldo, etc are illiterate morons. Quite the opposite. I just don't think the internet needs another site devoted to masterbating to the death of democrats or debating the merits of a comparison between GWB and Hitler. Apparently I am not alone in this opinion.
So, take that and put it aside, what is left? Some damn fine work by some of those self same people. Why on gods green earth wouldn't you want to brag about that? Why would you rather bury it, in favor of your endless threads about how the world has gone to ****?
The way it was WAS driving people away. Active contributors. Do they count? From what I am reading here, no, they don't. I'm not an admin. I don't want to be an admin. I want the admins to tell me what the site is for, and then I can make a personal decision whether to participate in that. I will offer suggestions, and if those suggestions sound reasonable, they may make use of those suggestions. If others offer similar suggestions, they may say "hmmm, maybe we should do something about this?"
That leaves us back at the binary question. I have little to no interest in lengthy debates on politics. I am intensely interested in the talents of people. I am intensely interested in new or old games, or doing interesting things with those games or the machines on which they run. I am intensely interested in game development, game quality art, and pursuits in line with that. I want a forum or community where I can participate in discussions about those things, something we can actually agree on, rather than how much of a twat Kazan is, or an0n's recent foray into prostitution.
That's what I want, a place that has those discussions. Leading with the "inane" is not what I want, personally. So the guys who run this site need to figure out which is the site they want to build and maintain. The one devoted to the "inane banter that comprises the Internet" or the site that used to bring modders together and showcases the accomplishments of those modders.
cheers for the implict insult, BTW.
If there's one thing I've established here in the last few years it's that very few people give a **** about what I work on for freespace, and those that do know where to find me.
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Where's the evidence of that? If people were tired of the forum organisation then why haven't we seen a single complaint or suggestion to rectify the problem before yesterday? I know they're falling into one camp or the other NOW, but that's only because the issue was raised in the first place.
Several people have in fact complained about this in the internal forums before, but most will simply leave silently. I'm still here because of the abundance of Freespace content, but I would have left years ago if there was another Freespace site as active as this one. If you want another example, we have daveb of all people. He used to visit here fairly regularly at one point, but was turned off by the bickering like many others were.
There are also a lot of people who never bothered with HL at all. It has gotten to the point that there are almost two separate communities here, those who post in HL and those who post in the FS sections, with only a handful of posters going into both areas regularly. This is quite a departure from the situation when the site was started, and it's easy to see why.
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To summarize, there are pretty much two viewpoints:
On the one hand, you have people who think that (some of) the discussion in Hard Light was an embarrassment to new people visiting. They think the focus should be on Modding, not discussion.
On the other, you have people who think that the people above count their contributions as nothing. (Let me assure you, this is not true. ::) ) They think that the Hard Light thread is the heart and soul of HLP, and that it should reflect that.
Am I missing anything?
How about this: put "Hard Light" back, make several Child Boards, including one labeled "Everything ElseTM"... Divide it into "Religion", "Science", "Politics", (You already have "Gaming" thread), "Hobbys", "Sports", "Life", and other things... that way people don't see titles like these jumping out at them:
Evolution without sex?
Hate Democrats? Well Masturbate to this.
Look upon the face of stupidity
Cluster**** To The White House(TM)
Prepare to be indoctrinated!!!!!!!!!
Laura gets pwn3d
A pox on all you Londoners.
Fundies say the darndest things
Bill Clinton's new girlfriend?
Dirty
Redefining the word '****'
Nucking Futs!
Well, I'm pissed.
To the people in group 2: group 1 just doesn't want stuff like that jumping at newbies / sensitive people. I see their point, but:
to the people in group 1: group 2 doesn't want to be censored, and this makes it feel that way, even if it isn't. Labeling someone's opinion, no matter how nutso you think it is, as "Padded Cell" "Stupid Stuff" is just a little over the top, hmm?
I think having sub-categories (Child Boards) in Hard Light would solve or help solve this. If people see that stuff, well, you were in the "Everything Else" section, which says in the description: Everything that isn't in one of the categories above can be found here; the Good, the So-so, the Bad, the Ugly, and the Absurd. You were warned.
Or a religious person would expect to find stuff in the "Science" section (here I put in my 2 cents worth: "Falsely so called :p ") EDIT: Wrong place, wrong time, soz... :blah: that may or may not suite their tastes, and they can discuss it there. In the Sports section, everyone should know to stay away from the Red Sox / Yankees discussion, unless they like BBQs.
How about that for an idea?
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What the hell is wrong with 'Evolution without Sex' as a title?
EDIT; actually, i see the global warming thread and 'Hungarians demand ejection of Piresan immigrants' was moved to the spam forum as well. This is simply ludicrous. If you don't want any form of discussion, then just delete the new off-topic section altogether - don't lobotomize it. If you wanted to split up debate or 'controversy' it's easy enough to keep it into a private forum not visible to new viewers, so why start moving perfectly valid topics - informative even - to the community trashpile?
What is this supposed to achieve beyond censoring whatever the majority view happens to be? Are we (we being people who like off-topic discussion) suddenly all expected to jump into the various FS forums and volunteer ourselves for projects because we've been labelled as worthless otherwise? Is this supposed to rejuvenate anything beyond the use of the 'minimize' buttons on the forums groups? I mean, for blimeys sake, part of the point of any forum is fun - and now it's being turned into work?
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Not to mention that the last big thing that came out of the hosted projects was what, the BWO demo? Inferno R1?
Evidently you haven't kept up with the hosted projects. Wing Commander Saga, Inferno Alliance, and several releases of B5 have come out since then.
Except now we have 2 cells for throwing debate. And one example of something that was neither nasty nor a debate being moved to the 'bad' one of them.
I sort of did a mass move of threads, just by looking at thread titles, in order to prune out The Pub relatively quickly. If I got a few threads wrong, feel free to let me know. I already moved the "Evolution without Sex" thread back.
The point of the off-topic forums is to have friendly chatter in The Pub, civilized debate in The Meeting Hall, and raucous debate or flame wars in The Padded Cell. Making the debate forum restricted-access has worked very well for Sectorgame, so I thought we could do the same here.
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IMHO The Padded Cell and The Classics boards are totally unnecessary, as is Games and Gaming category. The two boards there could be moved to Off-Topic category.
Edit: What the hell? The general discussion board no longer counts posts? Isn't that taking things a BIT too far? Also, making Charismatic and Cobra the moderators of the spam board could be taken as an insult.
Edit 2: So now the ex-Hard Light board is not only divided into two boards, but three? Third being accessible only by request? That's so lame.
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NO! WE NEEDS MORES SUBFORUMZ! LETS HAVE ONE PER MEMBER!
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So the guys who run this site need to figure out which is the site they want to build and maintain. The one devoted to the "inane banter that comprises the Internet" or the site that used to bring modders together and showcases the accomplishments of those modders.
I see absolutely no reason why we can't have both. Think of it like a city - there are universities and there are red-light districts. Would you leave a city simply because a red-light district exists? It's a big place and there's room for everyone. People can choose where they go. And who is to say that the people in the university will not visit the red-light district every once in a while to let off steam, and that the people in the red-light districts won't pop by the university to expand their horizons and work on projects. All work and no play makes jack a dull boy. You obviously have vastly more experience in the field of game development than I do, but I have trouble believing that even the most talented of developers are buttoned-down stoics who don't enjoy a good shouting match every once in a while, just like the rest of us.
I'm as saddended as the next guy that people, productive members, are being driven away. But is it desireable, or even possible, to sterilize HLP enough to accomodate these discriminating tastes? This is not GarageGames. It's not Gamasutra. And it couldn't be even if we all tried to make it that. The narrow focus means that the number of people and the output they produce is going to be limited. Which means that if the focus were shifted solely to the development/modding side of things, HLP would quickly start to resemble a closed think-tank of developers, almost like a monastery, instead of a populated, busy, loud, flashing neighborhood. I'm not calling you an elitist, and certain not a fascist. I check out the contributions you and others make to FS2 and even other games (for example, I downloaded the demo for your Iraq War vehicle shoot-em-up), and am absolutely thankful for them. Let's just be clear on that. To be perfectly honest, I haven't fired up FS2 in a while - something I think is true for many others as well. Does this fact make me a less important part of the community? Am I now outside of the narrow scope which we have chosen to focus on?
I can't speak to all those who've left, but to all those, yourself included maybe, who are contemplating leaving all I can say is: is it really that bad? Is the General Discussion, with all its uncivilized craziness, that hard to tolerate that you would leave all the good behind simply to be rid of the bad which you are not forced to even notice, much less participate in? What gives? You too CP. How hard is it, especially now with the new layout, to simply not click on any boards which you find uninteresting or offensive, and just pretend they don't exist. I don't know how to code, so I don't visit the coding board too often. I'm not offended by it, I barely even notice it. Simple as that. Like I said, HLP is fairly civilized when compared to the Internet norm. I find it hard to understand how people who have presumably lived for a long time with the Internet have such a low threshold for annoyance. Almost every forum, even the intelligent ones like TTLG, has an OT sections full of loud, opinionated, often abnoxious people. That's just the reality. And personally, I've learned to stop being enraged or annoyed by it.
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I don't understand why people are so up in arms and writing these massive posts about how inconsiderate that everyone who supports the change is.
I'm not going to try to defend the forum moderation that's been taking place, because I don't agree with the split between the Pub and the Padded Cell, either, and I have no doubt that it's going to be different from what I would've done. So rest assured that not everybody is 100% in favor with everything that's going on, there is room for disagreement.
But I do support the idea that HLP needs to change before it just gets ****ed up. I can share some blame for the changes because I actually started a thread on the internal support system that more or less said, "This community isn't really going anywhere. Is there something that's going to change this community and give it a direction or purpose?" That was in January, and Inquisitor took the opportunity to post in that thread. My idea was quite a bit more advanced; the guts of it was pooling together everyone not significantly involved with the three major projects or projects close to release, and creating a large community-based project that would be able to get internet fame. Or at least the attention needed to get new blood in here, and start some new projects.
My reasoning for that is that this community is going nowhere. I've stopped really visiting Hard Light, and made a point not to post there, partly because I don't really care and partly because of the moderation issues that plagued it. Every single release that's made doesn't seem to really make a difference, but there's always promises of 'That will change'. Then the campaign of whoever promised change dies due to lack of interest, and because the staff evaporated.
Maybe everyone here is content to just watch things die off. Like the things that brought this community together and is the reason for its existence in the first place, and right now. Hard Light doesn't even have a community feel, thanks to all the jackassery and intentional jabs at person X or group Y. And this change really shows how banal it is. Thanks to moving the forums a whole two feet down, people are complaining about the eradication of the community. :rolleyes:
Other than that, I really don't think I can do anything more effective than repost my response in the internal and let people compare it themselves to the rest of this posts in the thread.
I don't think that the new forum layout will change the focus of the site right away, but it's at least a step in that direction.
I think there are too many general discussion forums. We don't need 'The Pub', 'The Meeting Hall', and 'The Padded Cell'. All we need is the 'The Pub' and 'The Meeting Hall', and 'The Meeting Hall' should be publicly visible unless there's a good reason for making it an exclusive, secret club. (Posting privileges should still be on a per-approval basis)
Additionally, the forums have lost the organization that they had before with the reordering of the categories. Before, it was more or less a line from general, nonspecific forums (Hard Light) to ever-increasing specific forums. (SCP --> Freespace Forums --> Specific campaigns)
Voice acting also doesn't really belong with the Art and Gaming discussion forums. Neither of those are project-centered, Voice Acting is.
It seems like we have way too many Freespace forums. They would be a lot more comprehensible if there were fewer of them (There are far too many if this is supposed to be a general modding site). The wiki forum could be generalized, the campaign restoration project forum made a subforum of the Freespace Upgrade Project forum, and that forum in turn moved into the set of Freespace forums. Then the FRED and FRED Academy forums could be made subforums of the Missions and Campaign forum. Multiplayer could be a subforum of general Freespace (It's pretty small to be its own toplevel forum). An additional 'modelling' forum added to the Modding forum wouldn't be a bad idea at all, as long as it were easy to look up ship and model releases from it.
That leaves Gaming, Art, and Voice Acting. Voice acting I'm tempted to say should be lopped into the Missions and Campaigns section, since that's what it's most closely related to. It could also go in the 'Community Projects' section. Fan Fiction and Art...I think it would be interesting to put that in the 'Important Stuff' forum and see what happens. That gives new members some pretty artwork to look at right off the bat. Games and Gaming should be moved down to the 'Off Topic' section, and that section renamed 'Discussion'.
The Archive section doesn't seem like it needs its own category. It seems more useful to move those forums into the 'Hosted Projects' category as a subproject of an Archive forum.
Final Forum Arrangement
Important Stuff
News and Announcements
Hard Light Art
Support (...)
Community Projects
Freespace Source Code Project (...)
Hard Light Wiki
Voice Acting Guild
Freespace
General Freespace (Multiplayer)
Freespace Upgrade Project (Freespace Campaign Restoration Project)
Missions and Campaigns (FRED, FRED Academy)
Modding (Modelling, Scripting)
Hosted Projects
...
The Archive (The 158th Banshee Squadron, Unsung Heroes)
Discussion
Games and Gaming
Meeting Hall
HLP Classics
The Pub
EDIT: I would also like to add that I think that getting rid of a general discussion forum would be a bad idea. There wouldn't be any place to discuss things like Battlestar Galactica, which is relevant to the forums, but isn't actually a part of any of the projects hosted on HLP. It also gets rid of a 'relaxed' area, where people can go to just hang (Pardon the slang :p) and socialize with others who have similar interests.
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I think people are confusing my angst with "the way things were" with me wanting no general discussion categories. So, I'll pull a WM and repost as well:
I tend to agree, splitting it further seems excessive. Its only a couple mouse clicks though to change these thngs, fluidity is not a death sentence. If this is the admins finding their feet, I am ok with that. As should now be obvious, a forum configuration is far from set in stone.
Is there a place for "general discussion" in a focused forum? Absolutely, someone suggested that the pendulum may have swung a little too far, that may be the case, this is a balancing act, its not easy, and nobody should think that any solution is permanent or perfect. Try things, just so long as it changes for the better (or at least doesn't slide you back too far), its good. There probably should be a Hard Light gendisc forum, lots of other forums manage to have gendisc without it being full of nonsense. The substance of that gendisc forum does depend somewhat on the actual focus though, and I am not sure we know what that forcus is. There are alot of things in that new "Pub" forum that probably qualify.
And you may have read an implied insult, but none was actually intended. If I am going to insult you, I won't bother with implied.
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The new layout doesn't bother me one way or another, although I admit it was a shock to see everything changed all of the sudden.
My only real objection is that the off-topic boards have been split up into "The Pub" and "The Padded Cell" and the fact that those boards no longer count towards your total. The "Classics" board is fine where it is, those threads are so hilarious that they deserve to be set apart. I liked it better when the Pub and Cell were under one title, "Hard Light" and it counted towards your post total.
The reality is that off-topic is where, IMHO, most of the posting takes place (at least for me). I don't understand a whole lot of the modding stuff that goes on in the project forums, but being able to post on things that I do know about (like politics) in the off-topic forums and contribute to the community in that manner makes me feel more like a member. Being able to watch my participation in the form of my post count going up is where that satisfied feeling of participation comes from. It bothers me that you don't count posts from those forums, because it's a little like saying those contributions don't count, which contradicts the democratic ideal at HLP that everyone's typed word has equal weight, regardless of their modding skill.
I think that the no-post-count regulation on the off topic forums should be lifted. It detracts from the feeling of participation gained by those who don't have the strong modding background that many of our members have. It could, in its most extreme form, end up alienating the members who come here for the social aspect more than the technical one.
EDIT: Also, dividing people's contributions into "smart stuff" and "stupid stuff" (i.e.: Pub and Cell), just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. It's not something that I can put my finger on exactly, but I think that splitting people's intellectual contributions like that could lead to some problems down the road. It was much better when everyone posted in the same general forum; it gave everyone's word equal weight.
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I think people are confusing my angst with "the way things were" with me wanting no general discussion categories. So, I'll pull a WM and repost as well:
I tend to agree, splitting it further seems excessive. Its only a couple mouse clicks though to change these thngs, fluidity is not a death sentence. If this is the admins finding their feet, I am ok with that. As should now be obvious, a forum configuration is far from set in stone.
Is there a place for "general discussion" in a focused forum? Absolutely, someone suggested that the pendulum may have swung a little too far, that may be the case, this is a balancing act, its not easy, and nobody should think that any solution is permanent or perfect. Try things, just so long as it changes for the better (or at least doesn't slide you back too far), its good. There probably should be a Hard Light gendisc forum, lots of other forums manage to have gendisc without it being full of nonsense. The substance of that gendisc forum does depend somewhat on the actual focus though, and I am not sure we know what that forcus is. There are alot of things in that new "Pub" forum that probably qualify.
And you may have read an implied insult, but none was actually intended. If I am going to insult you, I won't bother with implied.
My arse, mate - you wouldn't have even mentioned my name and singled me out if you weren't having a dig (and, I note, juxtapositioning it next to a ridiculous oversimplification and indeed misrepresentation of my personal opinions, presumably the exaggeration being for added effect).
Obviously I'm not a 'contributor' to the whole Freespace side of things, I guess, then?
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Look; the people in this thread need to decide what they're arguing for. Is is that the forum order is changed, or that gendisc was split up? If it's for the order being changed, tough, deal with it. However, if it's the split up, then there's reason to complain.
Some of you are complaining just to complain, and indeed, targeting each other with your annoying banter. That's the very crap that was targeted for removal by this split up in the first place. So, stop it, and voice real concerns, rather than "I dont like the order, Im gonna leave"
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Personally, I do not see what the big deal is here. Stuff got moved around, big deal. Although I think naming one section the "padded cell" was a bit over the top, I don't necessarily disagree with any of it. There's still a section for General Discussion, it just isn't at the top. Which is better, frankly. The main focus of this site is creating new and fun stuff for Freespace. People come to this site for that content, not random political "discussions" that can be found on any other forum in the Net.
Not everyone is unhappy with this change, admins.
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So, Rictor says:
The rest of us mortals aren't going to embarass anyone. If someone regards the General Discussion as a cesspool of illiterate retards - you know, people who contribute nothing like aldo, Bobbaou, karajorma and so on, then they need never visit it.
I reply with:
I do not think that Rictor, Aldo, etc are illiterate morons. Quite the opposite.
And that's an implied insult? That was EXPLICITY not my intention. I can't get more explicit than that.
Its no secret (well, I hope its not) that I am tired of the substance in what was the Hard Light forum. I think a great deal of it is noise and damn little signal. That does not mean what Rictor implied, that I think you or any other participant is stupid.
But you're angry, and I am a good person to be angry with, so I doubt very much this will be "reasonable" discourse.
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That dig about "reasonable" is pretty close to an insult, in case you were wondering. I'll go ahead an own up to that, its mostly an observation though, given the fact you seem to have missed the fact that *I* wasn't the one who singled you initially. But, i was not thinking kind thinsg when I typed it, so go ahead and take that as an insult.
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Look; the people in this thread need to decide what they're arguing for. Is is that the forum order is changed, or that gendisc was split up? If it's for the order being changed, tough, deal with it. However, if it's the split up, then there's reason to complain.
My complaints (the practical ones, not the abstract ones) are almost exclusively because of the latter. My guess is that this is true for most others.
My major beef is:
1. The fact that General Discussion was split up into three parts when one would do. Again, no one is forced to venture inside - it's like showing porn on late-night TV. You don't have to be there if you don't want to.
2. The fact that post counts don't count in The Padded Cell. The implication is that anything said there contributes nothing to the community and is not worth even considering a legitimate posting. This makes anyone who posts primarily in there in effect a non-member (me for example). And before anyone mentions "oh no, my e-penis won't grow!" I will say that if it's such a frivolous matter then apply a single rule to the entire forum.
3. The stricter moderation - isn't the entire point of having a board specifically, exclusively dedicated to feces-flinging to have a laissez-faire attitude, if only in that one place. Or is it better to have three ill-defined levels of "maturity", the thresholds of which are decided on the momentary whim of an admin?
Obviously I'm not a 'contributor' to the whole Freespace side of things, I guess, then?
Inquisitor is right on this one. Check my original post - I said it and it was clearly intended as sarcasm since you, Bob and kara are among the biggest contributers around here.
edit: sorry for causing the misunderstanding folks, my bad.
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Hard Light was a Gen Disc thread, but you should be able to have Gen Disc without these popping out at you:
Evolution without sex?
Hate Democrats? Well Masturbate to this.
Look upon the face of stupidity
Cluster**** To The White House(TM)
Prepare to be indoctrinated!!!!!!!!!
Laura gets pwn3d
A pox on all you Londoners.
Fundies say the darndest things
Bill Clinton's new girlfriend?
Dirty
Redefining the word '****'
Nucking Futs!
Well, I'm pissed.
You should, however, be able to find these in a sub-forum of Gen Disc, IMO. did anyone read my post that I just quoted from? I didn't get any response to it... ?
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Wow. I totally have zero time to read all this. Dang.
If there's good suggestions about website changes and the like buried in this thread, please collect them all together and PM me. I've got to run the scoring system at a FIRST Robotics competition next week, but life should start getting back to normal once that's over, especially since I'll be on Passover schedule (half-days at work).
Yeowsers. Good to see people care about this place so much they posted 6 pages in a day. :D
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This whole thing would be so much more awesome if an0n were involved. Alas, I don't really know how to summon him. :blah:
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You know I figured out why Char and Cobra are mods in here. It's to discourage us from posting in any thread moved here! TEH SOCIAL ENGIN33RING!!!111
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Wow. I totally have zero time to read all this. Dang.
If there's good suggestions about website changes and the like buried in this thread, please collect them all together and PM me. I've got to run the scoring system at a FIRST Robotics competition next week, but life should start getting back to normal once that's over, especially since I'll be on Passover schedule (half-days at work).
Yeowsers. Good to see people care about this place so much they posted 6 pages in a day. :D
Oh? You're involved with FIRST? You going to Atlanta? (I know it's a ways from Israel, but still.)
My team got 290 points at Sillicon Valley Regional. [/offtopic]
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My views:
1) I think the subdivision of General discussion is unnecessary. In fact, I think we have too many forums as it is. As has been mentioned previously, I think we could turn some forums into subforums and make the top-level board a little less cluttered. Also, we don't have enough users to justify a billion different boards.
2) Correct me if this has been changed, but why is the Padded Cell (forum for flaming and spam) open to all viewers while the Meeting Hall (forum for considered debate) is hidden and requires applying for special usergroup access? If we are to have these forums at all (which, again, we shouldn't) then shouldn't it be the other way around?
3) **** the 'community'. It kinda pisses me off that some leech in General Discussion can sit around all day, posting inanities and gibberish, and still be considered 'contributing' when other people are actually working away on projects, actually making things for the community to enjoy. It's sort of annoying when it takes me a year to earn a custom title, a community award, while some goddamn idiot fresh off the internet can receive one in five minutes for acting like a moron and amusing the 'community'.
(not bitter not bitter)
It's especially irritating when I'm asking for volunteers to help me create something (with very little work involved! a one-time £10 payment and a few hours of your time!) and get absolutely no assistance whatsoever, because people would rather spout drivel about politics, or entertainment news, or gossip. And for all your descriptions of HLP as a 'bastion' of culture, wit and intelligence, I find that the HLP community's only outstanding trait is civility, and that is because the members are too tedious to use internet slang. There are other sites out there with greater depth and breadth in political and philosophical matters; this place is unfortunately too dry to sustain similar levels of discussion.
So, yeah, screw you guys. The SCP and the various modding projects are more important for HLP than chatting about real life events, even if it's one of the really intellectual and enlightening chats that naturally happen all the time here. Yeah, it's elitist; sorry, but that's life. Not everything is equal, not everything is important.
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Look; the people in this thread need to decide what they're arguing for. Is is that the forum order is changed, or that gendisc was split up? If it's for the order being changed, tough, deal with it. However, if it's the split up, then there's reason to complain.
My complaints (the practical ones, not the abstract ones) are almost exclusively because of the latter. My guess is that this is true for most others.
My major beef is:
1. The fact that General Discussion was split up into three parts when one would do. Again, no one is forced to venture inside - it's like showing porn on late-night TV. You don't have to be there if you don't want to.
3. The stricter moderation - isn't the entire point of having a board specifically, exclusively dedicated to feces-flinging to have a laissez-faire attitude, if only in that one place. Or is it better to have three ill-defined levels of "maturity", the thresholds of which are decided on the momentary whim of an admin?
Ill say I agree that the forums dont need to be split. That's not a good move for moderation or for posters. Ive said so to Goober as well. But it's his call as the admin most active.
I'll say I agree 100% with Blaise Russel.
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You know I figured out why Char and Cobra are mods in here. It's to discourage us from posting in any thread moved here! TEH SOCIAL ENGIN33RING!!!111
Don't worry, I don't bite.
Much. ;)
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What is this supposed to achieve beyond censoring whatever the majority view happens to be? Are we (we being people who like off-topic discussion) suddenly all expected to jump into the various FS forums and volunteer ourselves for projects because we've been labelled as worthless otherwise? Is this supposed to rejuvenate anything beyond the use of the 'minimize' buttons on the forums groups? I mean, for blimeys sake, part of the point of any forum is fun - and now it's being turned into work?
I come back after a few days and HLP has evolved! Interesting. The explanation for the new layout sounds like 'live with it or leave, because we only welcome those who make a contribution to the modding forums. Oh, and watch your mouth if you decided to hang around regardless"
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Not at all. That's the impression the dissenters are giving. No one has forced any changes on people other than a scrolling down. People are automatically equating this to censorship, and saying things like "what's next? Post size restrictions?" when there's no proof of any of the sort.
2 things need to be changed: The three forums need to be remerged, and post counting needs to be re-enabled. But the forum should remain on the bottom, and people need to grow up a bit.
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"the forum should remain on the bottom"
why?
I have yet to hear any good reason why this change was needed in the first place
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I personally think the gist of it is, 'This is a site about Freespace 2, the SCP and Modding, oh, and you can do general chit-chat too', which, to my mind is better than 'This is somewhere we come for general chit-chat that has something to do with Freespace 2.'
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2 things need to be changed: The three forums need to be remerged, and post counting needs to be re-enabled. But the forum should remain on the bottom, and people need to grow up a bit.
Thank you. That's exactly the point I was trying to make, only in a lot fewer words.
I think the gripe of the people is the division of the General Forum and the removal of post-counting. If those things are reinstated, I think we would all feel much better about the state of our community.
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Oh well, I guess I have been hanging out at the wrong forum for chit-chatting and scientific news discussion :)
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yeah me too.
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Oh well, I guess I have been hanging out at the wrong forum for chit-chatting and scientific news discussion :)
hello thar
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Also, why the hell are you people so afraid of debate? HLP mods don't seem to know how to actually moderate it - there have been a goddamn umpteen times when serious discussion has been locked because A) someone starts to post stupid stuff (way to punish the rest of the people there folks good job) or B) it doesn't "lead" anywhere or something.
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Oh FFS!
So now it's our fault for not knowing how to moderate 'properly'?
Screw you guys
Did it occur to any of you that the best way to prove to the Admin that a Forum for Prima Donnas isn't needed is not to act like them?? I'm all for remerging the forums and fixing the post counts, but if you're going to all walk around picking one reason after another why this is wrong, then you are simply proving them right.
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"the forum should remain on the bottom"
why?
I have yet to hear any good reason why this change was needed in the first place
It was changed because it isn't the predominant reason for this forum's existence. It may be why you come here but why you come here, and the purpose this place is supposed to serve dont have to be the same. The very first forum a new member would see on the old setup was gendisc, which had nothing to do with "Bringing Modders Together." Almost every other forum has their OT sections on the bottom. Why is it a problem for you if it is done here?Also, why the hell are you people so afraid of debate? HLP mods don't seem to know how to actually moderate it - there have been a goddamn umpteen times when serious discussion has been locked because A) someone starts to post stupid stuff (way to punish the rest of the people there folks good job) or B) it doesn't "lead" anywhere or something.
Janos, You act like a tool, and it's often you, through your interjection of useless crap, that leads threads on their slippage towards lockage. Don't blame us, blame yourself.
Oh well, I guess I have been hanging out at the wrong forum for chit-chatting and scientific news discussion :)
When, perse, has anyone ever discouraged you from posting your threads here? No one said you can't or shouldn't. We said it shouldn't be prominent.
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<Edited out because of redsnipers following remark>
It does seem like a lot of trouble for nothing to me.... I mean... is this rearrangement likely to fix anything?
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No, he didn't. Don't try to make things worse.
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The rearrangement was supposed to help as a step in the right direction towards giving this place a focus. No single change is going to magically fix all of HLP's problems, but a stubborn userbase isnt helping either. What I mean to say is that there cant be everyone grabbing their pitchforks and running to town square every time something changes on here. times are changing and HLP needs to change with them.
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Which is more important, the userbase or the forum?
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That's a non-answerable question; without a userbase there is no forum, but without a forum there is no userbase. Both have to change over time. In nature, things that resist change die. If HLP doesn't change, it too will die. And if the userbase refuses to accept the changes, it too will dwindle away.
However, the userbase is changing and growing every day. For example: A lot of the members who were part of this "community" when I was new have since left and never come back. A lot of the names here today I dont recognize. How many from when you joined up still remain?
What happened to Orange? Dynamo? Venom/Nico? Max Sterling? Tiara? Stryke9? Solatus? Etc.
Trying to be a martyr won't stop change.
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anos, You act like a tool, and it's often you, through your interjection of useless crap, that leads threads on their slippage towards lockage. Don't blame us, blame yourself.
Don't try to pull that. You know quite well what I mean. Look at politics and evolution/religion threads - yeah I know, it's the same every time, but as soon as people start to discuss things someone flips a switch and posts some inane rant. After that the thread is locked. Why? Why punish those who actually discuss things by locking the thread - why not just monkey those who **** in threads for a day or two, then let discussion go on? It's almost like people were allergic to discussion and every single disagreeement, even if it is completely justified, is automatically taken as "flaming" or "trolling".
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Yeah, those threads like 'Cluster**** to the Whitehouse' started out with such good intentions.
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anos, You act like a tool, and it's often you, through your interjection of useless crap, that leads threads on their slippage towards lockage. Don't blame us, blame yourself.
Don't try to pull that. You know quite well what I mean. Look at politics and evolution/religion threads - yeah I know, it's the same every time, but as soon as people start to discuss things someone flips a switch and posts some inane rant. After that the thread is locked. Why? Why punish those who actually discuss things by locking the thread - why not just monkey those who **** in threads for a day or two, then let discussion go on? It's almost like people were allergic to discussion and every single disagreeement, even if it is completely justified, is automatically taken as "flaming" or "trolling".
Im not "pulling" anything. It's easy to blame the staff. Especially moderators who don't have power to monkey. Threads dont get locked for a single member posting crap, they get locked when several members do so. And that happens in almost every thread because there's nothing more to discuss any more. You all know eachother so damned well and know what each will say. Someone resorts to insults, wethere explicit or implicit, and the entire thread goes down from there. What do you want? Those threads to remain open and have everyone simply insulting eachother like the anchors on quahog news? And that has nothing to do with why the forum is placed on the bottom. It's down here because politics and religion have absolutely nothing at all to do with freespace modding.
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What pisses me off is that nine times out of time, I'll just tell people knock it off or Be Nice. But since the 'It's the heart of the community!' argument seems to be petering out, I suppose 'The Mods aren't doing their jobs!' is the next line of attack.
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It's people arguing for the sake of arguing. Nothing has really changed for them at all, but instead we moderators have a lot more work, yet they're up in arms.
It's not "the community." The community are the people who don't generally post in Gen Disc, but instead are on the other subforums. This "community" happens to be a smaller minority within the larger community that has more or less isolated and insulated itself and is terrified of change. :doubt:
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i didn't know mods didn't have the power of the monkey, i'm sorry. Maybe they should!
People argue because people argue - it has nothing to do with FS but does it have to have?
edit:
Here's where members can come to chat about life, the universe, and everything.No debating is allowed -- ask to join the Meeting Hall group for that.
Why? If the arguements suck then shouldn't people try to make them better, not try to block it out and arbitrarily deciding what debate is "good" and what is not?
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i didn't know mods didn't have the power of the monkey, i'm sorry. Maybe they should!
People argue because people argue - it has nothing to do with FS but does it have to have?
You can still argue! Just at the bottom, and not the top!
Meh. I give up. There's no reason here. Its just arguing because people like to argue. Im done.
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Hmph. I understand the moderators point of view..
The only thing I think that needs changing badly is having to ask to join Town Hall. Now, how about instead, you can get kicked out of Town Hall (for bad behavior), and you have to ask to get back in?
Also, as I said, "padded cell" "stupid stuff" c'mon. Unless that's all that gets put in there, don't label it that. If someone hijacks a thread, or many people do, cut their posts out, and put it in stupid stuff as a separate thread, don't toss the whole thread in there.
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Most forums I've been too, General Discussion or Off-topic boards were always located at the bottom, not at the top.
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Go vote here:
New Hard Light format (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,46128.0.html)
and here:
is this realy an improvement (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,46124.0.html)
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omg...
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:) just vote, if you haven't already.
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yeah if it's just a vocal minority this will show that.
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Oh? You're involved with FIRST? You going to Atlanta? (I know it's a ways from Israel, but still.)
My team got 290 points at Sillicon Valley Regional. [/offtopic]
I'm not going to Atlanta, there's Israeli regionals that a friend of mine here is the director of, and she recruited me into this thing. :p
Oh, and by the way, I thought this was interesting in light of these hotly debated changes:
[attachment deleted by admin]
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However, the userbase is changing and growing every day. For example: A lot of the members who were part of this "community" when I was new have since left and never come back. A lot of the names here today I dont recognize. How many from when you joined up still remain?
What happened to Orange? Dynamo? Venom/Nico? Max Sterling? Tiara? Stryke9? Solatus? Etc.
OK, that's fair. But here's my question: isn't there going to be people who eventually drift away from any venture for a myriad of reasons? People can leave for personal reasons, because they don't have enough time anymore, because they need to focus on school, because they simply loose interest and yes, because they are driven away by the bickering. That is to say, isn't there a natural desertion rate in anything you do, which exists regardless of the specific problems of that project. In my mind, it's more complicated than just "we were acting like assholes, so all the cool people left".
I think the gripe of the people is the division of the General Forum and the removal of post-counting. If those things are reinstated, I think we would all feel much better about the state of our community.
Bingo. That's basically my only real issue here. Fix those things and I'll shut up (until next time muahaha) I'm not trying to be a bad guy or throwing a hissy fit, just bringing up a few grievances which I consider legitimate.
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Oh? You're involved with FIRST? You going to Atlanta? (I know it's a ways from Israel, but still.)
My team got 290 points at Sillicon Valley Regional. [/offtopic]
I'm not going to Atlanta, there's Israeli regionals that a friend of mine here is the director of, and she recruited me into this thing. :p
Oh, and by the way, I thought this was interesting in light of these hotly debated changes:
On the converse, if 73% of hits are returning, and this change has seemingly significantly reduced the number of returning visits..........
(lies, damned lies, and statistics)
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Inquisitor is right on this one. Check my original post - I said it and it was clearly intended as sarcasm since you, Bob and kara are among the biggest contributers around here.
edit: sorry for causing the misunderstanding folks, my bad.
At least I am not imagining things then, sometimes in these "debates" I wonder if I am the only who sees these things. Its way to easy to see what you want to see when you are emotionally involved. If you are already mad at someone, its easy to read evil intentions into every thing they do.
On the converse, if 73% of hits are returning, and this change has seemingly significantly reduced the number of returning visits..........
(lies, damned lies, and statistics)
Statistics are almost always lies. Context is crucial, and the real numbers behind the percents frequently tell a different story. Things like 50,000 visits since march 1st, or ~4k visits in the last day (numbers from that map thingy at the bottom of the index) are interesting numbers. Tracking THAT information over time will tell you if changes like this are truly damaging.
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Since when did this move to the padded cell?
Anyways... how about this; everyone has rights to view and post in the debate hall. If you get booted, you have to pay your due (about a day per offensive post) and you can return. Have the padded cell locked up tight (you can see but not post) and make people have to request to post in there. Keep the posts-dont-rack-up setting on the padded cell though return it to the other sections. There's a difference fine line between debate and flame wars; the admins seem to have fallen to the latter side of that line.
Here's what needs to be done;
Swap the Debate Room's status with the Padded Cell's status
Allow posts to count in the Debate Room and The Pub
That's all that needs to be done... so please,
DO IT
:sigh:
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However, the userbase is changing and growing every day. For example: A lot of the members who were part of this "community" when I was new have since left and never come back. A lot of the names here today I dont recognize. How many from when you joined up still remain?
What happened to Orange? Dynamo? Venom/Nico? Max Sterling? Tiara? Stryke9? Solatus? Etc.
OK, that's fair. But here's my question: isn't there going to be people who eventually drift away from any venture for a myriad of reasons? People can leave for personal reasons, because they don't have enough time anymore, because they need to focus on school, because they simply loose interest and yes, because they are driven away by the bickering. That is to say, isn't there a natural desertion rate in anything you do, which exists regardless of the specific problems of that project. In my mind, it's more complicated than just "we were acting like assholes, so all the cool people left".
That was my argument! Bob is insinuating that people only ever leave when an admin makes a change to the forum.
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The only thing those stats I posted indicate is that ever since the change, there has been a drastic increase in the number of pages people have been viewing. In other words, lots of people are posting a lot more, probably *****ing and moaning about the change. :p And there's no statistically significant drop in the number of visitors total, since the weekends always fluctuate.
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You know what shocks me?
Has anyone even tried asking an admin politely for a change? Through a PM or something?
I mean, everyone has been so rude lately. People need to stop being dicks.
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Has anyone even tried asking an admin politely for a change? Through a PM or something?
I'm sure someone has, but either way, HLP is a dictatorship and there will be a change only when the dictators feel there needs to be. I guess I didn't quite expect them to smash any opposition with the Hammer of Justice, since usually they let people complain until they're tired of complaining. Maybe they're taking this a little more personal than usual?
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I like the new layout, but since you're screwing with the boards, can you bring back the IW2 and Freelancer boards? pretty please.
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Has anyone even tried asking an admin politely for a change? Through a PM or something?
I'm sure someone has, but either way, HLP is a dictatorship and there will be a change only when the dictators feel there needs to be. I guess I didn't quite expect them to smash any opposition with the Hammer of Justice, since usually they let people complain until they're tired of complaining. Maybe they're taking this a little more personal than usual?
I'm sure the administration would be a bit more understanding if people were more polite about it. I bet they would've already changed a few things back, but they're holding off just out of spite.
Most of the time, all of the topics on this subject are things like "oMg THIS = ++gAy!!!". No one was really making any suggestions, and then when the mods come to tell them to stop spamming, they get drawn into arguments with the posters.
You know what really is the problem here? It's all the people who are complaining. I'm not talking about the polite people, but the people who spam about it with no real argument or request. Transitions would go a whole lot more smooth without them. The people who are actually smart usually have some kind of constructive criticism or suggestion, instead of just making a poll and shouting at the admiods or something like that.
EDIT: I suppose I'm no help either, I mean I'm just sitting here saying basically what I previously stated over and over in the multitude of threads on this subject.
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So, what about my posts?
Eh, change it from "Stupid stuff" to "Random Stuff" or "Miscellaneous" or "Everything in General & Nothing in Particular" or something like that... just because there's no stated purpose doesn't make it stupid.
If they buggered off without arguing about what was done, I wonder how good of an arguer they were...
But "Padded Cell" and "Stupid Stuff"... think of something else. Please? I could care less, but I think others would find it insulting
... but there should be a separate place for civilized debate; if it gets nasty, then throw it in the padded cell. I don't like the idea of all debates automatically going to the padded cell. See, if you only throw nasty debates in the padded cell, then it makes sense that debates would be less likely to get nasty. Also give the offending parties a chance to edit their posts and have the thread moved back to the "Debating Hall" or whatever you would call it.
I think the point was to draw new people in, by focusing the members on modding the game, which is not a bad idea, but I'm not sure about the wisdom of the implementation.
EDIT: I'm sure most of the unhappy people will still be unhappy, but what if you put a button at the top to jump to the bottom of the page, or a toolbar with buttons for the 7 different sections, allowing a jump directly to that section? Also a button at the bottom allowing for a jump to the top.
(http://www.hard-light.net/images/hlp_logo_frontpage.jpg)
You have a point there.
Bring them together, then they will of course find the links for general discussion, if they want to.
EDIT: How about a drop-down link, sort of like the one for "Hosted Projects", that allows direct jump from forum main down the page to the start of the section? Or a toolbar, like I mentioned before.
To summarize, there are pretty much two viewpoints:
On the one hand, you have people who think that (some of) the discussion in Hard Light was an embarrassment to new people visiting. They think the focus should be on Modding, not discussion.
On the other, you have people who think that the people above count their contributions as nothing. (Let me assure you, this is not true. ::) ) They think that the Hard Light thread is the heart and soul of HLP, and that it should reflect that.
Am I missing anything?
How about this: put "Hard Light" back, make several Child Boards, including one labeled "Everything ElseTM"... Divide it into "Religion", "Science", "Politics", (You already have "Gaming" thread), "Hobbys", "Sports", "Life", and other things... that way people don't see titles like these jumping out at them:
Evolution without sex?
Hate Democrats? Well Masturbate to this.
Look upon the face of stupidity
Cluster**** To The White House(TM)
Prepare to be indoctrinated!!!!!!!!!
Laura gets pwn3d
A pox on all you Londoners.
Fundies say the darndest things
Bill Clinton's new girlfriend?
Dirty
Redefining the word '****'
Nucking Futs!
Well, I'm pissed.
To the people in group 2: group 1 just doesn't want stuff like that jumping at newbies / sensitive people. I see their point, but:
to the people in group 1: group 2 doesn't want to be censored, and this makes it feel that way, even if it isn't. Labeling someone's opinion, no matter how nutso you think it is, as "Padded Cell" "Stupid Stuff" is just a little over the top, hmm?
I think having sub-categories (Child Boards) in Hard Light would solve or help solve this. If people see that stuff, well, you were in the "Everything Else" section, which says in the description: Everything that isn't in one of the categories above can be found here; the Good, the So-so, the Bad, the Ugly, and the Absurd. You were warned.
Or a religious person would expect to find stuff in the "Science" section (here I put in my 2 cents worth: "Falsely so called :p ") EDIT: Wrong place, wrong time, soz... :blah: that may or may not suite their tastes, and they can discuss it there. In the Sports section, everyone should know to stay away from the Red Sox / Yankees discussion, unless they like BBQs.
How about that for an idea?
Hard Light was a Gen Disc thread, but you should be able to have Gen Disc without these popping out at you:
Evolution without sex?
Hate Democrats? Well Masturbate to this.
Look upon the face of stupidity
Cluster**** To The White House(TM)
Prepare to be indoctrinated!!!!!!!!!
Laura gets pwn3d
A pox on all you Londoners.
Fundies say the darndest things
Bill Clinton's new girlfriend?
Dirty
Redefining the word '****'
Nucking Futs!
Well, I'm pissed.
You should, however, be able to find these in a sub-forum of Gen Disc, IMO. did anyone read my post that I just quoted from? I didn't get any response to it... ?
Hmph. I understand the moderators point of view..
The only thing I think that needs changing badly is having to ask to join Town Hall. Now, how about instead, you can get kicked out of Town Hall (for bad behavior), and you have to ask to get back in?
Also, as I said, "padded cell" "stupid stuff" c'mon. Unless that's all that gets put in there, don't label it that. If someone hijacks a thread, or many people do, cut their posts out, and put it in stupid stuff as a separate thread, don't toss the whole thread in there.
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Has anyone even tried asking an admin politely for a change? Through a PM or something?
I'm sure someone has, but either way, HLP is a dictatorship and there will be a change only when the dictators feel there needs to be. I guess I didn't quite expect them to smash any opposition with the Hammer of Justice, since usually they let people complain until they're tired of complaining. Maybe they're taking this a little more personal than usual?
AFAIK not a single person politely asked for a change. No... people instead threatened to leave if it was not reverted. And I know that if I were an admin I'd not be inclined to change a thing back. As a mod I've had to deal with all of the childishness and insults, and been personally blamed for the "community"'s shortcomings.
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Which admin(s) should be asked? Goober? Who?
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Probably Goober, however, before you get PMing, I suggest you look here...
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,46160.0.html
That is the current Admin stance. Personally, as always, I'm willing to wait and see how things go for now.
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So, what about my posts?
*snippity snip-snip-snip*
Okay, I'll change "Except for one thread" to "Most of the time"
Your the entire reason I put in the "Except for one thread" phrase in the first place. I didn't forget you ::) .
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Ok, you want constructive criticism? Here's this:
I simply don't understand why we had to nerf the whole main subforum to reduce the amount of crap in it, when the same thing could have been accomplished with the existing framework, via considerably lowering the threshold of what consitutes lockable behavior in a thread, stern warnings if this activity continues, and one week bans; in short, exactly what Thunder used to do a few years back whenever things got out of hand. Back then, flaming could occur in any random thread - the fact that it's now mostly in political threads (the religion ones are mostly dead, thank god) is an obvious sign that the moderators were too tolerant of anger in those for too long, with the result that they became a refuge for flaming. We don't need to have a padded cell or make the main forum a no post count zone or make a debate subforum; just, for a month or two, lock anything that so much as looks like it might get out of hand. If you explain exactly what is being done, the people who like debating will put up with it.
The most painless and effective solution to reinvigorate this place would of course be for one of our main projects to get released dammit - then we'll actually have something to talk about. It's long past due for some to push publicly for everyone to pool all their talents for BWO or MT. We need to get stuff done, now.
I admit that I and a lot of others overeacted, but the response that you and goober, snipes, and BD gave was not exactly reassuring. I absolutely agree than HL has stopped being fun, but I don't see why we need to due all this fancy stuff that annoys everyone when just doing what's been done in the past will get the job done with a lot less hassle.
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AFAIK not a single person politely asked for a change. No... people instead threatened to leave if it was not reverted. And I know that if I were an admin I'd not be inclined to change a thing back. As a mod I've had to deal with all of the childishness and insults, and been personally blamed for the "community"'s shortcomings.
I'll admit - I never asked for anything in this post (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,46128.msg941326.html#msg941326), or this one (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,46128.msg941341.html#msg941341).
However, I also did not threaten to leave, nor did I insult anyone, act childishly, or blame anyone for any shortcoming that, frankly, I don't think exists.
Not to be contrary, once again, but giving the impression of lumping every poster besides yourself into a group you dislike seems counterproductive. Yes, with an extremely literal read, you didn't *precisely* say that "... not a single person" is the same group as "people instead..." - but if you follow one with the other directly after, people are left to draw their own conclusions. I'm not thin-skinned, and I could read it literally - but not everyone is, and not everyone will.
Please don't take it as a slam - it isn't. It's an example of exaggeration and emotional language getting the best of a situation that already seems a wee bit edgy.
The response that followed my last post in that thread? Cursing, seemingly directed at me, and a lock of the thread.
...*****ing about a new layout won't get it changed
See what I mean? If you take things to heart, you could start to get paranoid. Even paranoids are right occasionally. Sometimes everyone IS out to get you! ;)
It probably wasn't directed solely to me - and since he doesn't know me from Adam, he probably wasn't directing it to me, specifically. It sure looks that way, though, doesn't it?
Basically, my point is... please, don't alienate people who DON'T have ill-will toward you by thinking it exists, and treating them that way. If I was thinner-skinned, that wouldn't be a good 1-2 punch. As it is, I can point it out, and show how it could be seen that way - but not feel I've been insulted.
I repeat, I'm not mad. Just saw an interesting pattern.
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AFAIK not a single person politely asked for a change. No... people instead threatened to leave if it was not reverted. And I know that if I were an admin I'd not be inclined to change a thing back. As a mod I've had to deal with all of the childishness and insults, and been personally blamed for the "community"'s shortcomings.
I'll admit - I never asked for anything in this post (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,46128.msg941326.html#msg941326), or this one (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,46128.msg941341.html#msg941341).
However, I also did not threaten to leave, nor did I insult anyone, act childishly, or blame anyone for any shortcoming that, frankly, I don't think exists.
Not to be contrary, once again, but giving the impression of lumping every poster besides yourself into a group you dislike seems counterproductive. Yes, with an extremely literal read, you didn't *precisely* say that "... not a single person" is the same group as "people instead..." - but if you follow one with the other directly after, people are left to draw their own conclusions. I'm not thin-skinned, and I could read it literally - but not everyone is, and not everyone will.
Please don't take it as a slam - it isn't. It's an example of exaggeration and emotional language getting the best of a situation that already seems a wee bit edgy.
I also wrote AFAIK. As Far As I Know. But your overreaction is noted. Thanks.
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I also wrote AFAIK. As Far As I Know. But your overreaction is noted. Thanks.
Overreaction to what?
I went out of my way to say I wasn't upset. Once again - it wasn't any sort of personal comment.
Apologies if you took it that way.
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I also wrote AFAIK. As Far As I Know. But your overreaction is noted. Thanks.
Overreaction to what?
I went out of my way to say I wasn't upset. Once again - it wasn't any sort of personal comment.
Apologies if you took it that way.
Sometimes, just sometimes, people go out of their way and write extremely sarcastic and ironic text as a dig. And quite frankly it was difficult to tell if you were being serious or a smartass.
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Well, like I said about Cobra, but applying it in reverse - I don't know you from Adam, and I shouldn't have any reason to dislike you. I haven't been here long enough to really like or dislike anyone.
I was serious - I saw a pattern that may or may not be interesting to you or the other admins, and felt it may be worth pointing out. Sorry if I wasted your time.
(Edit: *changed a sentence that could have been misconstrued*)
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Here's yet another random opinion from someone who wasn't around to see most of this emo-ness unfold in real time: I utterly agree with shunting GenDisc down to the bottom of the forum, and I could really care less about any sort of splitting that happens/doesn't happen. To be perfectly honest, I haven't regularly read Hard Light for what's probably more than a year now, despite making my first few posts on this forum in there. Any thread with even a slight chance of controversy seemed to quickly descend into utter flaming and ganging-up within a page or two, and I quickly got sick of it. I don't know about anyone else, but the reason I'm here is to see the amazing work that the SCP and modders are putting out on a daily and weekly basis; everything else is just so much fluff. I'll probably peruse these newly-created subforums just as frequently as I did Hard Light, so they can do their thing down here as much as they want while I remain blissfully ignorant of them.
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See we got some more opinions:
I really appreciate those changes. Well, actually I don't care, it's just that every other board I'm visiting also removed postcount in off-topic and moved off-topic section to the bottom. And they all do fine with that.
Hmm, there's one thing you could change:
Move the Machina Terra forum to the top of the page, that would spare some of my precious time. :lol: