[jr2]

just vote, if you haven't already.

[Bobboau]

yeah if it's just a vocal minority this will show that.

[Sandwich]

Oh? You're involved with FIRST? You going to Atlanta? (I know it's a ways from Israel, but still.)

My team got 290 points at Sillicon Valley Regional. [/offtopic]

I'm not going to Atlanta, there's Israeli regionals that a friend of mine here is the director of, and she recruited me into this thing.

Oh, and by the way, I thought this was interesting in light of these hotly debated changes:



[attachment deleted by admin]

[Rictor]

However, the userbase is changing and growing every day. For example: A lot of the members who were part of this "community" when I was new have since left and never come back. A lot of the names here today I dont recognize. How many from when you joined up still remain?

What happened to Orange? Dynamo? Venom/Nico? Max Sterling? Tiara? Stryke9? Solatus? Etc.

OK, that's fair. But here's my question: isn't there going to be people who eventually drift away from any venture for a myriad of reasons? People can leave for personal reasons, because they don't have enough time anymore, because they need to focus on school, because they simply loose interest and yes, because they are driven away by the bickering. That is to say, isn't there a natural desertion rate in anything you do, which exists regardless of the specific problems of that project. In my mind, it's more complicated than just "we were acting like assholes, so all the cool people left".

I think the gripe of the people is the division of the General Forum and the removal of post-counting.  If those things are reinstated, I think we would all feel much better about the state of our community.

Bingo. That's basically my only real issue here. Fix those things and I'll shut up (until next time muahaha) I'm not trying to be a bad guy or throwing a hissy fit, just bringing up a few grievances which I consider legitimate.

[aldo_14]

Oh? You're involved with FIRST? You going to Atlanta? (I know it's a ways from Israel, but still.)

My team got 290 points at Sillicon Valley Regional. [/offtopic]

I'm not going to Atlanta, there's Israeli regionals that a friend of mine here is the director of, and she recruited me into this thing.

Oh, and by the way, I thought this was interesting in light of these hotly debated changes:

On the converse, if 73% of hits are returning, and this change has seemingly significantly reduced the number of returning visits..........

(lies, damned lies, and statistics)

[Inquisitor]

Inquisitor is right on this one. Check my original post - I said it and it was clearly intended as sarcasm since you, Bob and kara are among the biggest contributers around here.
edit: sorry for causing the misunderstanding folks, my bad.

At least I am not imagining things then, sometimes in these "debates" I wonder if I am the only who sees these things. Its way to easy to see what you want to see when you are emotionally involved. If you are already mad at someone, its easy to read evil intentions into every thing they do.

On the converse, if 73% of hits are returning, and this change has seemingly significantly reduced the number of returning visits..........

(lies, damned lies, and statistics)

Statistics are almost always lies. Context is crucial, and the real numbers behind the percents frequently tell a different story. Things like 50,000 visits since march 1st, or ~4k visits in the last day (numbers from that map thingy at the bottom of the index) are interesting numbers. Tracking THAT information over time will tell you if changes like this are truly damaging.

[Bob-san]

Since when did this move to the padded cell?

Anyways... how about this; everyone has rights to view and post in the debate hall. If you get booted, you have to pay your due (about a day per offensive post) and you can return. Have the padded cell locked up tight (you can see but not post) and make people have to request to post in there. Keep the posts-dont-rack-up setting on the padded cell though return it to the other sections. There's a difference fine line between debate and flame wars; the admins seem to have fallen to the latter side of that line.

Here's what needs to be done;

Swap the Debate Room's status with the Padded Cell's status
Allow posts to count in the Debate Room and The Pub

That's all that needs to be done... so please,
DO IT
 

[Taristin]

However, the userbase is changing and growing every day. For example: A lot of the members who were part of this "community" when I was new have since left and never come back. A lot of the names here today I dont recognize. How many from when you joined up still remain?

What happened to Orange? Dynamo? Venom/Nico? Max Sterling? Tiara? Stryke9? Solatus? Etc.

OK, that's fair. But here's my question: isn't there going to be people who eventually drift away from any venture for a myriad of reasons? People can leave for personal reasons, because they don't have enough time anymore, because they need to focus on school, because they simply loose interest and yes, because they are driven away by the bickering. That is to say, isn't there a natural desertion rate in anything you do, which exists regardless of the specific problems of that project. In my mind, it's more complicated than just "we were acting like assholes, so all the cool people left".

That was my argument! Bob is insinuating that people only ever leave when an admin makes a change to the forum.

[Sandwich]

The only thing those stats I posted indicate is that ever since the change, there has been a drastic increase in the number of pages people have been viewing. In other words, lots of people are posting a lot more, probably *****ing and moaning about the change. And there's no statistically significant drop in the number of visitors total, since the weekends always fluctuate.

[Polpolion]

You know what shocks me?

Has anyone even tried asking an admin politely for a change? Through a PM or something?

I mean, everyone has been so rude lately. People need to stop being dicks.

[Ulala]

Has anyone even tried asking an admin politely for a change? Through a PM or something?

I'm sure someone has, but either way, HLP is a dictatorship and there will be a change only when the dictators feel there needs to be. I guess I didn't quite expect them to smash any opposition with the Hammer of Justice, since usually they let people complain until they're tired of complaining. Maybe they're taking this a little more personal than usual?

[phreak]

I like the new layout, but since you're screwing with the boards, can you bring back the IW2 and Freelancer boards? pretty please.

[Polpolion]

Has anyone even tried asking an admin politely for a change? Through a PM or something?

I'm sure someone has, but either way, HLP is a dictatorship and there will be a change only when the dictators feel there needs to be. I guess I didn't quite expect them to smash any opposition with the Hammer of Justice, since usually they let people complain until they're tired of complaining. Maybe they're taking this a little more personal than usual?

I'm sure the administration would be a bit more understanding if people were more polite about it. I bet they would've already changed a few things back, but they're holding off just out of spite.

Most of the time, all of the topics on this subject are things like "oMg THIS = ++gAy!!!". No one was really making any suggestions, and then when the mods come to tell them to stop spamming, they get drawn into arguments with the posters.

You know what really is the problem here? It's all the people who are complaining. I'm not talking about the polite people, but the people who spam about it with no real argument or request. Transitions would go a whole lot more smooth without them. The people who are actually smart usually have some kind of constructive criticism or suggestion, instead of just making a poll and shouting at the admiods or something like that.

EDIT: I suppose I'm no help either, I mean I'm just sitting here saying basically what I previously stated over and over in the multitude of threads on this subject.

[jr2]

So, what about my posts?

Eh, change it from "Stupid stuff" to "Random Stuff" or "Miscellaneous" or "Everything in General & Nothing in Particular" or something like that... just because there's no stated purpose doesn't make it stupid.

If they buggered off without arguing about what was done, I wonder how good of an arguer they were...
But "Padded Cell" and "Stupid Stuff"... think of something else.  Please?  I could care less, but I think others would find it insulting

... but there should be a separate place for civilized debate; if it gets nasty, then throw it in the padded cell.  I don't like the idea of all debates automatically going to the padded cell.  See, if you only throw nasty debates in the padded cell, then it makes sense that debates would be less likely to get nasty.  Also give the offending parties a chance to edit their posts and have the thread moved back to the "Debating Hall" or whatever you would call it.

I think the point was to draw new people in, by focusing the members on modding the game, which is not a bad idea, but I'm not sure about the wisdom of the implementation.

EDIT: I'm sure most of the unhappy people will still be unhappy, but what if you put a button at the top to jump to the bottom of the page, or a toolbar with buttons for the 7 different sections, allowing a jump directly to that section?  Also a button at the bottom allowing for a jump to the top.

You have a point there.
Bring them together, then they will of course find the links for general discussion, if they want to.

EDIT: How about a drop-down link, sort of like the one for "Hosted Projects", that allows direct jump from forum main down the page to the start of the section?  Or a toolbar, like I mentioned before.

To summarize, there are pretty much two viewpoints:

On the one hand, you have people who think that (some of) the discussion in Hard Light was an embarrassment to new people visiting.  They think the focus should be on Modding, not discussion.

On the other, you have people who think that the people above count their contributions as nothing.  (Let me assure you, this is not true. : )  They think that the Hard Light thread is the heart and soul of HLP, and that it should reflect that.

Am I missing anything?

How about this: put "Hard Light" back, make several Child Boards, including one labeled "Everything Else^TM"... Divide it into "Religion", "Science", "Politics", (You already have  "Gaming" thread), "Hobbys", "Sports", "Life", and other things... that way people don't see titles like these jumping out at them:

Evolution without sex?
Hate Democrats? Well Masturbate to this.
Look upon the face of stupidity
Cluster**** To The White House(TM)
Prepare to be indoctrinated!!!!!!!!!
Laura gets pwn3d
A pox on all you Londoners.
Fundies say the darndest things
Bill Clinton's new girlfriend?
Dirty
Redefining the word '****'
Nucking Futs!
Well, I'm pissed.

To the people in group 2: group 1 just doesn't want stuff like that jumping at newbies / sensitive people.  I see their point, but:
to the people in group 1: group 2 doesn't want to be censored, and this makes it feel that way, even if it isn't.  Labeling someone's opinion, no matter how nutso you think it is, as "Padded Cell" "Stupid Stuff" is just a little over the top, hmm?

I think having sub-categories (Child Boards) in Hard Light would solve or help solve this.  If people see that stuff, well, you were in the "Everything Else" section, which says in the description:

Everything that isn't in one of the categories above can be found here; the Good, the So-so, the Bad, the Ugly, and the Absurd.  You were warned.

  Or a religious person would expect to find stuff in the "Science" section (here I put in my 2 cents worth: "Falsely so called ") EDIT: Wrong place, wrong time, soz...  that may or may not suite their tastes, and they can discuss it there.  In the  Sports section, everyone should know to stay away from the Red Sox / Yankees discussion, unless they like BBQs.

How about that for an idea?

Hard Light was a Gen Disc thread, but you should be able to have Gen Disc without these popping out at you:

Evolution without sex?
Hate Democrats? Well Masturbate to this.
Look upon the face of stupidity
Cluster**** To The White House(TM)
Prepare to be indoctrinated!!!!!!!!!
Laura gets pwn3d
A pox on all you Londoners.
Fundies say the darndest things
Bill Clinton's new girlfriend?
Dirty
Redefining the word '****'
Nucking Futs!
Well, I'm pissed.

You should, however, be able to find these in a sub-forum of Gen Disc, IMO.  did anyone read my post that I just quoted from?  I didn't get any response to it... ?

Hmph.  I understand the moderators point of view..
The only thing I think that needs changing badly is having to ask to join Town Hall.  Now, how about instead, you can get kicked out of Town Hall (for bad behavior), and you have to ask to get back in?

Also, as I said, "padded cell" "stupid stuff"  c'mon.  Unless that's all that gets put in there, don't label it that.  If someone hijacks a thread, or many people do, cut their posts out, and put it in stupid stuff as a separate thread, don't toss the whole thread in there.

[Taristin]

Has anyone even tried asking an admin politely for a change? Through a PM or something?

I'm sure someone has, but either way, HLP is a dictatorship and there will be a change only when the dictators feel there needs to be. I guess I didn't quite expect them to smash any opposition with the Hammer of Justice, since usually they let people complain until they're tired of complaining. Maybe they're taking this a little more personal than usual?

AFAIK not a single person politely asked for a change. No... people instead threatened to leave if it was not reverted. And I know that if I were an admin I'd not be inclined to change a thing back. As a mod I've had to deal with all of the childishness and insults, and been personally blamed for the "community"'s shortcomings.

[jr2]

Which admin(s) should be asked?  Goober?  Who?

[Flipside]

Probably Goober, however, before you get PMing, I suggest you look here...

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,46160.0.html

That is the current Admin stance. Personally, as always, I'm willing to wait and see how things go for now.

[Polpolion]

So, what about my posts?

*snippity snip-snip-snip*

Okay, I'll change "Except for one thread" to "Most of the time"

Your the entire reason I put in the "Except for one thread" phrase in the first place. I didn't forget you : .

[Mr. Vega]

Ok, you want constructive criticism? Here's this:

I simply don't understand why we had to nerf the whole main subforum to reduce the amount of crap in it, when the same thing could have been accomplished with the existing framework, via considerably lowering the threshold of what consitutes lockable behavior in a thread, stern warnings if this activity continues, and one week bans; in short, exactly what Thunder used to do a few years back whenever things got out of hand. Back then, flaming could occur in any random thread -  the fact that it's now mostly in political threads (the religion ones are mostly dead, thank god) is an obvious sign that the moderators were too tolerant of anger in those for too long, with the result that they became a refuge for flaming. We don't need to have a padded cell or make the main forum a no post count zone or make a debate subforum; just, for a month or two, lock anything that so much as looks like it might get out of hand. If you explain exactly what is being done, the people who like debating will put up with it.

The most painless and effective solution to reinvigorate this place would of course be for one of our main projects to get released dammit -  then we'll actually have something to talk about. It's long past due for some to push publicly for everyone to pool all their talents for BWO or MT. We need to get stuff done, now.

I admit that I and a lot of others overeacted, but the response that you and goober, snipes, and BD gave was not exactly reassuring. I absolutely agree than HL has stopped being fun, but I don't see why we need to due all this fancy stuff that annoys everyone when just doing what's been done in the past will get the job done with a lot less hassle.

[RazorsKiss]

AFAIK not a single person politely asked for a change. No... people instead threatened to leave if it was not reverted. And I know that if I were an admin I'd not be inclined to change a thing back. As a mod I've had to deal with all of the childishness and insults, and been personally blamed for the "community"'s shortcomings.

I'll admit - I never asked for anything in this post, or this one.

However, I also did not threaten to leave, nor did I insult anyone, act childishly, or blame anyone for any shortcoming that, frankly, I don't think exists. 

Not to be contrary, once again, but giving the impression of lumping every poster besides yourself into a group you dislike seems counterproductive.  Yes, with an extremely literal read, you didn't *precisely* say that "... not a single person" is the same group as "people instead..." - but if you follow one with the other directly after, people are left to draw their own conclusions.  I'm not thin-skinned, and I could read it literally - but not everyone is, and not everyone will.

Please don't take it as a slam - it isn't.  It's an example of exaggeration and emotional language getting the best of a situation that already seems a wee bit edgy. 

The response that followed my last post in that thread?  Cursing, seemingly directed at me, and a lock of the thread. 

...*****ing about a new layout won't get it changed

See what I mean?  If you take things to heart, you could start to get paranoid.  Even paranoids are right occasionally.  Sometimes everyone IS out to get you! 

It probably wasn't directed solely to me - and since he doesn't know me from Adam, he probably wasn't directing it to me, specifically.  It sure looks that way, though, doesn't it? 

Basically, my point is... please, don't alienate people who DON'T have ill-will toward you by thinking it exists, and treating them that way.   If I was thinner-skinned, that wouldn't be a good 1-2 punch.  As it is, I can point it out, and show how it could be seen that way - but not feel I've been insulted. 

I repeat, I'm not mad.  Just saw an interesting pattern.