Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Mustang19 on May 22, 2007, 04:55:34 pm
-
Pretty much everything anyone can think of has already been discussed. I'm just curious as to the most popular and legitimate theory out there.
I'm not so sure of Shivan intentions as to have a definite theory to explain the whole FS2 storyline. I am pretty sure of certain of the Shivan's motives. They're trying to cut off the Terrans and Vasudans, if not necesarily kill them. As mentioned in the FS1 ending, the Shivans exist to protect weaker races from being taken over, and isolating the GTVA by forcing it to destroy the nodes to Sol and Capella seems like something the Shivans would do.
The destruction of the Lucifer stopped the first Shivan invasion, but at the same time the Terrans lost contact with the center of their empire, and the Vasudan homeworld had already been blasted. They'd forced the Terrans/Vasudans to cripple themselves. One of those "Shivans work in mysterious" ways things. I suspect that if the Lucifer had made it through then the Shivans would have collapsed the node anyway. Capella was also an attempt to cut off the GTVA. By blasting the two Capella nodes, the GTVA was sealing itself off from the Knossos network in Gamma Draconis. The Shivans didn't mind; their work was done, the GTVA had shut itself off from expansion, and when Capella was about to be sealed off they blew the star. A few Sathanases stayed behind as garrison.
The FS2 tech description of the Shivans tries to make it clear that the Shivans were constructed by someone else. I won't repeat it word-for-word here, but take a few seconds to read it and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's like Petrarch's out-of-the-blue theory that the Shivans blew up Capella to make their way home: a storyline freebie. Anyway, people are pretty critical of the "Shivans are just taking point for a bigger, badder creator species", but I wouldn't be surprised if Volition really was planning to take the easy way out and turn FS3 into a big final battle between the GTVA and the Shivan's creators. In terms of storyline, FS1 and FS2 weren't all that creative in the first place, unless you compare them to rest of the cliched space shooter genre.
The Shivans couldn't or didn't want to handle the GTVA for whatever reason, so they sealed it off, and left to call in the big guns for Freespace: Episode Three. I mean, if the Shivans are really happy, peaceful people just trying to guard their subspace turf, who's going to be the enemy in FS3 after the Shivan's conversation with Bosch? Petrarch gives us the impression that the Shivans have made their peace with us and left for their homeworld, so who are we gonna fight now?
I know this post is too long for most of you, but one more thing. Volition probably doesn't intend it, but it's very likely that the Shivans may have evolved in the nebula. Scientists have talked about the possibility of hydrogen-based life on Saturn and Jupiter, so why not in the nebula? Plenty of different gases and environmental conditions. Few people realize how huge nebulas are- typically 30+ lightyears "wide" in at least one direction. The odds of life originating in a nebula may actually be much higher than life origination on a planet, simply because of the massive area that could potentially create life. All your basic elements- oxygen, carbon, hydrogen- are there, and the massive size makes it likely that there will be at least some areas with the right gas mixtures and temperature for life to evolve. If you absolutely insist that life needs a solid surface to start from, there are plenty of space rocks floating around. So, not saying that this is a serious theory, but The Nebula(TM) could be the Shivan's "homeworld", and the Capella nebula a second home for them.
So, what's your theory?
-
I've attempted to do a theory about the Shivans for a long time. But thats pretty difficult to do because I think we're missing some key pieces of the puzzle. The pattern doesn't fit yet and we don't know something that is really important. What I can generally do is poke holes in other theories that don't fit the pre-established pattern but I can't really formulate a theory on my own.
What I can say is the following. The Shivans are mythological in their interaction with the story so you have to take all of the mythological hints contained within and consider them as an archetype rather than as a hostile species. I'm sure when they put together the story they realized they wanted a really incredible enemy that defied understanding and thats what they did really well.
Its obvious that the Shivans are motivated in different ways...we know they are drawn to subspace, its possible that they come from subspace or the interaction with subspace. Its been written that they don't consider planets to be terribly important to their strategic goals (seemingly) when they enter a system. They control the subspace nodes and ignore the planets unless it suits them (i.e. wiping out the Vasudans by attacking Vasuda Prime). They certainly don't seem to be very terrestrial. I think its brilliant that they came up with an enemy that defies so many conventions in terms of the usual space baddie. I love Wing Commander but the Kilrathi are almost classic...an alien an enemy foe that really isn't so alien (they are large cats) and that really doesn't have a massively different way of doing things. Its a very conventional war that the Humans and Kilrathi fight in that story but that doesn't work for FreeSpace...except between Terran and Vasudan.
So theories about the Shivans...fun to speculate but I've only seen a few REALLY good theories that even fit without having a whole bunch of holes. I'd challenge people to keep thinking out of the box...Shivans weren't conventionally written in the first place and even less so in FreeSpace 2.
Just consider that in FreeSpace 2 the Shivans could have taken all of those Sathanas, all 80 of them, and wiped out the GTVA in a week or less. Travel time would be the biggest hindrance to wiping them out quicker. Obviously the Shivans were hostile in that they attacked everything and spread out in the system, but they could have easily wiped the floor and finished them off. They didn't do it. So in FreeSpace 2, their motivations were entirely different than FreeSpace 1. What those motivations are...not a clue. The best guess I can do with a theory is that destroying the Capella star altered the various flows of subspace sort of like that scene in Star Trek Generations where the destruction of those stars altered the course of the nexus. But for what purpose...you got me. Thats the best guess I have.
-
I'm sure when they put together the story they realized they wanted a really incredible enemy that defied understanding and thats what they did really well.
Which was what made FS1 so creepy and epic. FS2 less so.
So in FreeSpace 2, their motivations were entirely different than FreeSpace 1.
Different motives? You're saying they changed their mind? Doesn't seem like that to me. Like I mentioned in the first post, FS1 and FS2 ended in basically the same way: the Shivans forced the GTVA to blow a subspace node, hindering GTVA expansion. In FS2, especially, the GTVA lost access to the Knossos network (or rather node "leapfrog system") in Gamma Draconis... not to say that they wouldn't find another Knossos lying around somewhere.
An interesting question is, "Where did the Shivans go after Capella?" Some old homeworld, Petrarch says. I feel pretty sure that this is Earth, as ridiculous as that sounds. I mean, where else? Either the GTVA would have to find this "homeworld" for the story to continue, or Earth is the homeworld, and the Terrans return to Sol only to find it infested with Shivans. Sol is the only "unexplored" part of the FreeSpace universe by the end of FS2, so where else is the GTVA going to find the Shivans?
What I can generally do is poke holes in other theories that don't fit the pre-established pattern but I can't really formulate a theory on my own.
Same here. But we haven't discussed everything yet.
-
Different motives? You're saying they changed their mind? Doesn't seem like that to me.
It does to me, though. Their strategy was completely different. With all those Saths, they could have overrun GTVA space in a couple of weeks. With the Lucy they just smashed their way through all obstacles until we outsmarted them. With the Sath Fleet... it seemed more like the GTVA was just in the way, and not really their main concern.
-
I don't believe that the Shivans would have collapsed the node if they had wiped out both homeworlds. The collapse of the Sol node was an unfortunate accident (from the Terran point of view, obviously) but was unforeseen by either party. The Shivans would not have bothered to destroy a race, then destroy the subspace nodes. If it is true that the Shivans are the guardians of subspace, then they would not purposefully destroy a naturally-occuring subspace node, which, we have seen, they are incapable of traversing their likely-massive empire without. I do not think it was even implied that they evolved in the nebula -- rather it was the remains of a Shivan-asploded star, not a naturally created one. Perhaps the Shivans detonated many stars across the galaxy? The Capella nebula could not have been merely a second home, because the escape of about half the Sathanas juggernauts is left unexplained. The supernova wiped out everything in-system, and there was no node that close to the sun. We also know that they could not have left the system without a node, because the first Sathanas is bound to node travel like all other ships. Therefore, the Sathanases simply left to an unknown destination, which their stellicide was either a cover for, or the trigger for.
-
Well i throw out my stupid idea :P
Sorta a lame Doomsday Machine Spinoff
Perhaps, the Shivans originally started out as a weapon system of some long dead Empire from before even the Ancients. They had laid dormant for centuries or perhaps millennia until the Ancients happen to stumble into them. They became active and following their directive started to purge the Ancients. From the ole FS1 cutscenes the Ancients believed they could forgo one system, it didn't sound as though at that point the Shivans were a galactic spanning empire. In addition a tailor made Weapon system wouldn't be interested in planets technology ect. just General Order No. 1 Seek Out and Destroy the Enemy. The Shivans began to build up and exterminatus the Ancients utilizing the Anctient's spinny fish ring portal nodes. However, being a weapon system they could build warships and fight and take advantage of other's technology but couldn't perhaps operate it themselves. For this reason a chunk of the Shivan fleet centered around the Lucifer got cut off from the rest of Shivans when they arrived in the Ancient's home galaxy(as a last ditch effort the Ancients pulled the plug on the portal). Still the fleet that made it through was still enough to cream what remained of the Ancients. Cut off from the rest of the Shivans and with no one to fight the "Lucy Fleet" went dormant until they noticed the Terrans and Vasudans. Reactivated they went on another purge crusade that was halted because of Alpha One's dogfighting prowess. Meanwhile the rest of the Shivans in the universe had continued to evolve and expand, until they became something 'more' then a weapons system. Still perhaps limited in their ability to understand other's technology and create culture, but able to see beyond their original specifications. Therefore they were interested in finding their origins in a quest to further themselves. Like Petratch speculated the Shivans blew up Capella in a search for home and culture, the GTVA were some annoying gnats they needed to swat to get there. I think this idea while unimaginative, does fit with the fact that the Shivans in FS1 and FS2 had seemingly different objectives and why the GTVA had a 32 year reprieve.
-
I don't try to come up with any theories about the hard facts about the Shivans, as most of it is pretty irrelevant. They've demonstrated that they occupy space surrounding the entire chunk of the galaxy that the GTVA has explored. Homeworlds don't make a whole hell of a lot of difference when your civilization spans that much space. Trying to analyze their motives is pretty pointless because whatever they're trying to do, it seems to involve mass-slaughter of Terrans and Vasudans. Apparently that's easier than talking to either species to get one, the other, or both to aid them in their endeavors. Whatever the end-goal is, the GTVA is gone and its members dead by the time those goals are met.
Really, the most speculation I do with regards to anything Shivan in the physical sense is how the GTVA will try to stop them and what the Shivans will do to overcome the alliance's defenses. At the end of FreeSpace 2, I could see the GTVA engaging in a campaign of isolation, collapsing every jump node to uncharted space into which they can shove a meson bomb. The obvious shortfalls are that it's not yet known whether or not such an explosion destabilizes enough to prevent the Shivans from using such jump nodes, and there's plenty of jump nodes in the systems "below" Delta Serpentis (on the Volition node map) that the GTVA has not mapped out.
Metaphysically, it's pretty easy to go wild with the Shivans, since they're so enigmatic. Allow me to explain in the form of a faux-Bosch monologue....
A millenium ago, humanity had tamed its homeworld. As a species, we then set ourselves upon the stars, intending to conquer them. With the discovery of subspace and a complete lack of resistance in the early days of interstellar exploration, we fully expected the galaxy to fall before us. The discovery of the Vasudans gave us a worthy, but by no means undefeatable foe. Regardless of the truth, terrans fully believed that with enough time, they could wipe out the Vasudan scourge and continue to take the galaxy. The Ancients suffered a similar hubris. It is difficult to blame them. We have no evidence to suggest that they had their own version of the Vasudans to attempt to temper their collective ego. For the Terrans and Ancients alike, the whole of the universe was a vine bearing ripe fruit, waiting to be picked.
And then the Shivans arrived. Some claim that subspace spawned the Shivans. Subspace, to the layman, is as mysterious as the Shivans, so it is natural that they wish to simplify their world by rolling two mysteries into one. In fact, this overlooks the obvious. Subspace did not spawn the Shivans; humanity did. They appear, slay (or at the very least humble) a species, and then vanish. They feed on our arrogance. They seek and consume it, and when there is none left, we "defeat" the Shivans and don't see them again, until we regain that adolescent feeling of invulnerability....
....or we suffer the same fate as the Ancients. I suppose the real mystery is why we are allowed to survive, while the Ancients were hunted to extinction.
-
Hmm, you know, on the whole "canon" issue: when speaking with regard to the Ancients, you have to be careful. Just because it was in a cutscene as the Ancient's opinion doesn't mean it is true. Fore example:
The Ancients state that the Shivans were "Protectors"... um 'scuse me, they just barely figure out the Shivan's shield vulnerability, but they know all about the Shivan motives? I think it more likely that the Ancients are a little superstitious, sort of like some Vasudans... in fact, IMHO, the Ancients and Vasudans may perhaps be related... I'll have to do some research (ha! when I get around to it) and post more details.
-
Hmm, you know, on the whole "canon" issue: when speaking with regard to the Ancients, you have to be careful. Just because it was in a cutscene as the Ancient's opinion doesn't mean it is true. Fore example:
The Ancients state that the Shivans were "Protectors"... um 'scuse me, they just barely figure out the Shivan's shield vulnerability, but they know all about the Shivan motives? I think it more likely that the Ancients are a little superstitious, sort of like some Vasudans... in fact, IMHO, the Ancients and Vasudans may perhaps be related... I'll have to do some research (ha! when I get around to it) and post more details.
It has been speculated before that the Vasudans were one of the Ancients subject races, in that way they would be related.
-
utilizing the Anctient's spinny fish ring portal nodes.
I agree, The shivans were an aincent weapon system "a'la skynet" which rebelled or was created to seek out all subspace capable peeps and mega-smite them.
-
The Wiki page for the Ancients lists many similarities between Vasudans and Ancients. Someone realized that a long time ago.
As for the "Ancient's opinion" issue, I consider all those random statements, like Bosch's claim that the Shivans evolved from subspace, to be "storyline freebies" rather than mere speculation of that character. I believe that Shivans are a hive-mind and are a semi-biological semi-machine race, as the FS2 tech description implies.
-
Different motives? You're saying they changed their mind? Doesn't seem like that to me. Like I mentioned in the first post, FS1 and FS2 ended in basically the same way: the Shivans forced the GTVA to blow a subspace node, hindering GTVA expansion. In FS2, especially, the GTVA lost access to the Knossos network (or rather node "leapfrog system") in Gamma Draconis... not to say that they wouldn't find another Knossos lying around somewhere.
Precisely what I'm saying.
In FreeSpace 1 the Shivans attack the Terrans and Vasudans, actively hunt their ships across many systems, and send the Lucifer out to eradicate both homeworlds as well as major fleet installations and so forth. The Shivans in FreeSpace 2 don't even leave the nebula in any serious manner until the Sathanas comes through. And then...they seemingly invade and then instead of blasting through the GTVA defenses they don't even try for the other systems. Sure they were completely ruthlessly hostile but that seems to be their MO on the whole so I'd consider that secondary. Everything in Capella was attacked and blasted away but their drive was not to try and finish off Earth or the Terrans and Vasudans or anything like that. Not seemingly so. They could have. 80 Sathanas would not have been stopped.
-
It seems likely to me that V didn't invest a great deal of time on the storyline untill FS2. Therefore it's unlikely there would be any plauseable continuation between FS1 and the sequel.
I'd guess the storyline was greatly expanded upon after they started FS2.
It's like when people try to explain the FS2 shivans having beams and the FS1 Shivans not having them. It seems obvious to me that rsulted from outside infulences (in the case of beams, they technology V had to work with). That's why V never bothered to explain the differences in FS2.
-
Copied+Pasted From SG.
Shivan Theory
First things first, the Shivans are a hivemind (stereotypical excuse for Shivan single mindedness).
My theory involves a 'cataclysm' which separated the Shivan fleets a long time ago (probably the destruction of several Jump Nodes simultaneously). After the cataclysm, the Shivans decided to nuke all other species because they did not want another cataclysm or something. Fortunately, the Shivans had 'backup hives' which come into motion when a fleet (or fleets) get separated from DaBrain.
The Shivans that came from Ross 128 and attacked the Terrans and Vasudans in FS1 were from a different fleet from the one in FS2. They were probably an expeditionary force which got lost after the disaster that separated the Shivans. Their fleet was very small so they decided that they had to create a sub-hive on board the Lucifer. This is why they needed to shield it and protect it so much.
It is to be noted that they are ultimately the exact same Shivans as the Shivans in FS2, they were just separated for a long time (who said that they hated these theories which say the Shivans are different? Mefustae?).
The Sathanes in FS2 were part of a larger fleet, perhaps one of the biggest Shivan fleets separated from the main one. Because the FS2 Shivans had such a large fleet already, they did not need to shield their capital ships like the Lucifer. The Comm Nodes in the second SOC loop were being used to try to communicate other Shivan fleets far away so the FS2 Shivans could join back up with them. The supernova of Capella was used as the gravitational field for the use of a super-jump node so that the FS2 Shivans could join up with some other Shivan fleet (alternatively it could be used as a beacon so the other Shivan fleets could find it, but it seems a stretch that the Shivans would blow up a star just for a signal).
This does not rule out another species the Shivans are at war with, perhaps those who caused the 'cataclysm' in the first place by using a type of super weapon to weaken the Shivans into individual fleets. Or something. Blegh.
Lucifer Shield Theory
My personal theory about beams piercing 'sheath' shields is that the sheath shield is basically an extremely strong shield that regenerates extremely quickly, and only a constant barrage of fire can pierce this shield. The damage needed is probably many, many Harbinger bombs exploding on the Lucifer all at once for about a minute constantly without break. Even a pause for a second or two will allow the shield to recharge to half or even full strength. All damage must be constant, with damage being delivered every split second.
The only way this could be done in the FS universe devised is the use of beam weapons. Beam weapons deliver a whole load of damage constantly for as long as the beam is fired at the targeted ship (in this case a Lucifer class destroyer). The beam will be able to pierce the shield after only a few seconds on the shield. Because the beam is always firing upon the shield, the Lucifer does not have enough time to recharge its shield. Thus, the beam will burst through, vomiting all its plasma on the Lucifer.
Addition to Shivan Theory
The Shivans were at war with 'some other species'. The war was based on fighting for subspace, to control subspace. Whoever controlled the most subspace nodes would win the war. The war stretched on for many hundreds of thousands of years and spanned many galaxies. The 'other species' decided that the war had gone on for long enough and decided in the end to create some 'Gravity Devices.' The Gravity Devices were used to destroy subspace nodes by using some kind of gravity disruption thingy. This makes larger subspace warps impossible because the gravity disrupts the 'base' energy that is needed for a successful inter-system jump. The gravity would probably crush things anyway. The Gravity Devices have their own defensive systems, so were mainly unstoppable.
The Shivans, spread across several galaxies, were unable to do much when the Gravity Devices reached the main nodes. The Shivans were utilizing the Sathanes fleet's ability to create supernodes on suns to traverse the galaxies. The Gravity Devices were created by 'the other species' to reverse the process of the supernodes. The Gravity Devices reached the main supernodes. After this, there was a big battle and the Shivans were able to destroy some of the devices. However, the 'other species' deactivated the devices for use later. But before they could reactivate them, they got blown up by one of the Shivan fleets.
The Shivans now had two objectives: to find each other, and to find and destroy all the Gravity Devices.
-
It seems likely to me that V didn't invest a great deal of time on the storyline untill FS2. Therefore it's unlikely there would be any plauseable continuation between FS1 and the sequel.
It's like when people try to explain the FS2 shivans having beams and the FS1 Shivans not having them. It seems obvious to me that rsulted from outside infulences (in the case of beams, they technology V had to work with). That's why V never bothered to explain the differences in FS2.
Hehe, have you ever played through FS1?
Specifically, I was wondering whether or not you'd seen this shot:
(BTW, those beams are pretty good looking... now, if they'd just move a faster...)
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
The Lucy only had them. No other ship did.
-
True enough. IDK why they didn't just tweak the values for the beam a little and put them on more ships. (duration longer, length longer, damage per second lower, speed higher).
-
Maybe they originally wanted the Lucy to be the only ship carrying beam weapons, but then in FS2 they thought it was cooler with all ships with beam cannons.
-
Well, along with the sheath shields, it does give the Lucy the :jaw: effect.
-
I've often wondered if the FS writers had a long run goal in mind with the story, or took a "make it up as we go along" approach.
Then again I wondered the same thing for halo.
It seems to me that the Shivans were meant to be very old and (from the looks of things) very well spread out, but they have no interest in surface worlds aside from destroying sub-space fairing races. They are inadvertently the keepers of the garden that protected both of our races... to a point.
My silly question would be: are the first shivans we meet directly related to the second ones?
...Or did we run across some kind of fanciful land mine they left behind long ago, then suddenly trip over the real deal.
-
It seems likely to me that V didn't invest a great deal of time on the storyline untill FS2. Therefore it's unlikely there would be any plauseable continuation between FS1 and the sequel.
It's like when people try to explain the FS2 shivans having beams and the FS1 Shivans not having them. It seems obvious to me that rsulted from outside infulences (in the case of beams, they technology V had to work with). That's why V never bothered to explain the differences in FS2.
Hehe, have you ever played through FS1?
Specifically, I was wondering whether or not you'd seen this shot:
(BTW, those beams are pretty good looking... now, if they'd just move a faster...)
I suppose you forgot Demons and Cains didn't but FS2 equivilants do ?
-
:nervous: Umm, they upgraded them... the Lucy was a new weapons testbed. :yes: I dunno. :rolleyes: You're right.
-
Beams get old pretty quickly. I almost prefered it in FS1 how capital ship battles were so rare yet long. It made them seem like real "warships", hurling plasma shards at each other for hours (okay, a few minutes, that's an eternity in FS combat). If only those plasma turrets did real damage. As it stands, the Orion is better off replacing its blob turrets with at least Avengers.
And as I understand it, there was some guy in Volition, forgot his name, who came up with the whole storyline and still has it floating around in his head. It is kind of strange, though. FS2 seems like an abrupt departure from FS1. It doesn't reference to FS1 in many places; there's little feeling of continuity. I was just hoping for FS3 to sort out this jumbled mess, but that's not happening, obviously.
-
Back to the point i think instead of talking about sexy ships :p.
i have one theory, and it may fit the puzzle.
1. FS1: What the Shivans goals were to destroy important planets and ultimate molarility symbols and Production planets. Once these were destroyed the GTA and PVN would of undoubtably been low on morale and severly shorthanded with ships and crew alike. The lucy would of destroyed every living thing, what the clips say about the Shivans, is there born into a Zero-G envoirnment, and normal space has gravity in it and it does not matter where you are, the chances are that any theory about Shivans born in normal space is obviously not Zero-G and which means subspace, that could explain why the shivans wanted the GTA and PVN destroyed, to protect their lands.
Fs2: The shivan goal this time was to keep the GTVA from Exploring further into more jump nodes. if any one noticed, that the shivans built up a steady pulse eminating to the sun in preparation for something and the Capella sun was just a trigger. the Shivan objectives this time was not the GTVA at all, more likely some experiment and it just happens the GTVA does not agree because it violates the GTVA. The GTVA were obviously caught in this by Accident. i think the Shivans only wanted Capella for themselves and that was it.
-
Though my theory of note is recorded in the wiki, the simple truth is that I don't think the deeper motivation matters very much, even in the context of a Shivan campaign. They don't need a reason, they're not accountable to anyone we know of.
-
Since when is normal space not considered Zero-G? Since when is subspace considered pure Zero-G?
-
Well I believe it's clear that they did not develop on a planet.
-
Planet-sized spaceship maybe? Didn't :v: say that planet-sized spaceships would have been in *forbidden phrase*? And I think it's safe to say that the GTVA wouldn't have been the ones constructing such a ship. :p
-
Earlier posters describing the Shivans as archtypical or mythic are right on the money. I'll offer a warning up front: I've put a bit of scratch in my pocket penning horror stories, and that definitely slants my view.
The original Freespace is a creepy game. It's downright disturbing. The opening cinematic still gives me goosebumps. Throughout the entire campaign we're offered no real insight into the Shivan motives (and very little about their methods). The closing monologue speculates on their role in the ebb and flow of cosmic civilization, but does so entirely relationally: it describes how we respond to the Shivans, how their actions impact us and the wisdom we can derive from these interactions, but doesn't tell us anything about THEIR side of these events.
Freespace was an explorer's ghost story. The Shivans are Flying Dutchmen: ghost ships that patrol the uncharted waters, the monsters at the edge of the map. They are the terrible Unknown that occasionally, forcefully, intrudes on what we consider safe and secure. They do not do so for reasons we can understand. They are, in the classical sense, monsters. They are not part of any discernable ecology. They do not consume, produce, and are not consumed in a way that directly contributes to any life outside their own. They are an arbitrary and horrible imposition on a cosmos that otherwise makes perfect sense, and that's where those goosebumps come from.
We've seen a devolution of "scary stories" over the last century. Our modern ghosts just want to be understood, our modern monsters are simply part of an ecology we don't yet understand, and once we've tucked these ghouls and demons safely inside the folds of wisdom they are no longer a threat. Consider how many horror films center around problems of understanding: once the protagonist learns why the ghost is angry, learns the monsters secret weakness, or unravels the mysteries of a particular ritual, the problem is solved. Rationalism is proposed as a weapon that can slay any dragon. These movies may startle us with a sudden bump, or gross us out with buckets of gore, but they don't really scare.
The Shivans were a problem that understanding could only partially resolve. The heroes could try to understand them.... but that wouldn't keep them from being killed. While discovering the weakness of the Lucifer lead to its destruction, it did so at a terrible cost, and more importantly required stepping into the monster's domain. We had to play the monsters game to defeat it, had to operate according to rules and reason alien to our own.
The original Freespace was scary because it proposed an enemy that reason could not truly defeat.
The second Freespace was almost purely a human drama, but that's another post ;-)
-
Here there be SF Dragons -->
-
i personally think the are a race Half-machine, Half-biological beings
They seem to like fighting
they dont seem to care if their comrades die
They seem to spawn more if u kill they
EG. Kill 1, warp in 2, Kill 2,warp in 4,kill 4, warp in 8
THEY ALWAYS COME BACK IN GREATER FORCE
-
Uu...nice post Gestalt :D :yes:
-
Gestalts approach to fs1 makes a lot of sense. In my mind that sort of plays into and continues in fs2. In fs2 the gtva was formed and a lot more advanced than they were before, and the gtva got a little full of itself and thought they could defeat anything, especially after the colossus destroyed the first sighted sathanas, the gtva said in a breifing that their technological superiority over their great war nemesis has been proven. Quite not true, but an obvious give away that the gtva is full of itself. In fs2 they don't understand the shivans at all, all they understand is how to better counter them with better technology as the gtva knows the basic staple ships and weaponry of the shivans from fs1, while fs1 ships of the shivans are used widely, the fs2 ships of the shivans really surprise the hell out of the gtva.
In fs2 i find it similar to fs1, but like everyone said fs2 is a lot more grand and epic, the gtva is a new empire and force to be reckoned with and this feeling sticks with you the entire game, until the sathanas invasion starts up. And right there the game doesn't get creepy, it just gets scary. The whole second soc loop loop with you doing the whole run as the 70th blue lions that feeling that the gtva is all powerful and invincible goes right out the door as you can barely do a clean evacuation hoping that everybody doesn't get slaughtered while you hope that you and your species doesn't get killed off, because with that many sathani that can happen, and extinction is a pretty scary idea.
-
I really wish people would stop calling the GTVA an "empire"
-
Well I believe it's clear that they did not develop on a planet.
This is a false conception. The basic truth is we do not, cannot, know, since the Shivans are all now cybernetically enhanced. Yes, their form as we know it is singularly well suited to zero gravity, but that proves nothing about their original form.
-
Well I believe it's clear that they did not develop on a planet.
This is a false conception. The basic truth is we do not, cannot, know, since the Shivans are all now cybernetically enhanced. Yes, their form as we know it is singularly well suited to zero gravity, but that proves nothing about their original form.
That's just it: we don't know. To virtually every question about them, we just don't know. For that matter, we don't even know for certain that the monsters that attacked the boarding party in the FS1 cutscene were Shivans (and not part of some automated defense system).
For that matter, do we know that there are Shivans? We know there are Shivan ships, but can anyone recall clear evidence, in either of the retail games, that those ships are actually occupied?
While I don't think there's any definitive answer provided by the games, I'm fond of a few theories:
-The Shivans died a long, long time ago. The war machine we encounter is just that: a complex autonomous armada built to wage war against an enemy long dead. Unfortunately (especially for Vasuda Prime), the identity of the "enemy race" has detiorated with time to become less and less specific.
OR, even more fun:
-The Shivans are aware of a unique threat to the cosmos, one of simply terrifying scale. This threat resides in subspace. Early subspace technology hasn't granted the GT(v)A enough freedom to discover this threat, but future advances in the technology would. As races gain more and more access to subspace, their is a greater and greater chance that they will disturb this slumbering giant. The Shivans will not allow this to happen, and preventing any race from accidentally unleashing this force on the universe is their sole goal, to be met by any means necessary. The Shivans are spread over a great distance, meeting potential threats (i.e. subspace capable races) with whatever force they have available at that location. As threats become more evident, they shift their forces... but it's a lot of ground to cover, hence the 30 year gap between the great war and the second shivan encounter, which had much more military force. The first war made it clear to the shivans that they needed to allocate more resources to the fight. Annihilation is not the true priority, however, and sometimes culling species with subspace tech needs to be put aside when a higher priority objective is present. The supernova at the end of FS2 was part of a containment operation. The Shivans aren't the Destroyers. They're the Gatekeepers, closing doors that should never be opened.
Here's a funny little bit:
Remember in FS1 when a Vasudan pilot comments "They're unstoppable. The old stories are true!"
What if the stories are true, but they aren't about the Shivans? What if the Shivans are trying to prevent us from jumping through subspace one time too many and catching the attention of..... ?
Anyway, that's what I like to think while I'm trying to line up a shot on a Mara ;-)
-
Eh, for your last theory, what would be wrong with communication? You know, a code? If they managed to get communications working, then they could warn other races. IDK, but Shivs don't seem to be of that breed. (Protection) They seem to be bent on destroying, just no one knows why. Here's an idea:
What if they are a race that gave themselves AI assist, & cybernetic + genetic enhancements, during a fight with another race? Except, their AI became interwoven too much with their thought processes, and eventually took over. The AI, of course, is mainly used for warfare assist, and had by that time matured enough to handle everything except knowing when to stop & what was considered as an "enemy".
Or, hang on a second, you could throw this in: The enemy the Shivs were fighting devised a superweapon ala Halo, that destroys Shivans by targeting their brain frequencies used for thought. Except, as they had AI assist, this just meant that now they knew no bounds to their destruction, the brain was still there and functioning, but with no control, so the AI took over, and used the brain as basically a databank to create newer weapons.
If all of this sounds rather silly, it's because I'm sleepy. :lol:
-
I'm pretty sure FS2 techroom cutscenes mention rare instances of live Shivans being captured.
-
I'm pretty sure FS2 techroom cutscenes mention rare instances of live Shivans being captured.
It does....
my shivans theory.... I would consider them veeeery old, possibly more than the flinstones and not that different from terrans, neither vasudans.
great warriors, but with their homeworld getting poor on resources, they started to conquer the space and wipe out other civilizations. they won the war against a high-tech civilization, but their enemy managed to destroy all life in their homeworld. with half galaxy screwed up, shivans become a nomad race, always flying in their ships and adapting their bodies to zero gravity along the centuries. after all those years, they were less and less human. without a homeworld they started to loose memory of their history.
by staying all the time in black ships in the dark space, they are now the moody genocide lads that are now.
but under thier hood, they are sweet as sugar. infact they are protecting a very rich system with evolving races behind capella.
-
If shivans are so set on protecting hte Galaxy/Universe/Other races/Us...why the hell don't they even try to talk to us??
They just kill, so I suspect there's something else behind that.
-
dunno...
maybe they switched on BBC News and they saw that negotiations don't work in out planet... figure out for an entire galazy! :D
ok, maybe the protection bit is a bit too much forced.
maybe they are not protecting any race, they are just trying to rebuild their old civilisation in that area.
-
They could be just trying to reclaim their old territory. Maybe around capella and the systems of the gtva is their ancient stomping grounds?
-
They could be just trying to reclaim their old territory. Maybe around capella and the systems of the gtva is their ancient stomping grounds?
Am I the only one who sees a (probably unintentional) pun there? :D
-
I'm trying, . . . . . But to no avail.
Please enlighten me :)
-
their grounds where they used to stomp the Ancients :lol:
-
Jeez, how the Frick did i miss that......... :lol:
-
Lol, you got it. And yes the pun was unintentional i had no idea what dark hunter found besides that possibly it had something to do with stomping grounds. My only fault was that i took ancient too much as ancient, and not the 4th fs2 species :lol:
-
The shivans received the very first major broadcast ever to reach the stars. Hitler, stating he hates ........certain communities of people. :nervous:
Because Hitler was a genocidal maniac, the Shivans became xenocidal maniacs.
Or its possible they just think we're a threat to them and want to wipe us from existence while they still can. It's what i would do.
-
I don't think its anything we said that triggered the assault, but more likely our use of subspace.
A speech from Hitler would mean nothing to a being that cant understand your language (or never cared to understand your culture). What you do to each other on the surface of a planet or to nearby planets has nothing to do with them.
Its when you trespass on their turf, when you now pose a threat to them, thats when they charge in with guns blazing to wipe you out.
Subspace in freespace gives your race a massive reach across the galaxy, possibly the entire universe.
Considering the scale of that... there could be billions of races across innumerable galaxies that suddenly want you dead.
-
I think that the whole "Shivans are defenders of subspace" idea is too simple to be likely. I think that our use of subspace triggered the assault, but the Shivans didn't arrive simply to keep us off their "territory". What, exactly, do you think that Volition meant when they said, "the Shivans are a symptom of a greater problem"? This is what really throws me off. What could that "greater problem" be? I can't think of anything other than the "bigger, badder alien race", and not only is that stupid, but we've talked about that enough. So what could it be?
Or are we just taking that statement out of context? Can someone tell me when and where, exactly, :v: said that?
-
Subspace itself. Long-term effects of its use.
-
I think that the whole "Shivans are defenders of subspace" idea is too simple to be likely.
Occum's Razor buddy. Occums Razor.
-
Subspace itself. Long-term effects of its use.
:wtf: Well... duh. You're right. Most likely a universe-collapsing-on-itself thing. A pretty common theme. That might be "it."
Occum's Razor buddy. Occums Razor.
Occam's razor? Tell that to any writer. By "likely", I don't mean realistic, I just couldn't see that as the big *secret* at the end of the FS story.
-
Subspace itself. Long-term effects of its use.
:wtf: Well... duh. You're right. Most likely a universe-collapsing-on-itself thing. A pretty common theme. That might be "it."
Occum's Razor buddy. Occums Razor.
Occam's razor? Tell that to any writer. By "likely", I don't mean realistic, I just couldn't see that as the big *secret* at the end of the FS story.
The simplest answer is always the right one. Lets see what we know : -
1. They're xenocidal. (hate any other race).
2. They are led by a collective hive mind. (no renegades or break offs, their 'swarm' formations)
3. Their incredible amount of technology and massive fleets indicate they are ancient.
4. They are obsessed with subspace and any disturbances of it.
It's pretty simple. IMHO, their 'hive mind' is subspace sensitive. Possibly either causes it pain / sensitive to it, or feels it is their 'property'.
Jump into subspace, and you anger shivans. Angry shivans kill you and your race.
p.s Occums / Occams razor has several types of spelling, doing be so picky and critical. :doubt:
-
If you want to get really technical, the Shivans aren't the defenders of subspace, but of everyone who hadn't found it yet. That was FS1's message. And the greater problem in that context is the fundementally destructive nature of technological sentiences.
-
Most likely, ngtm1r. I assume that if that idea is correct (and I'm pretty sure it is), then FreeSpace would end with the GTVA and Shivans reaching some happy coexistence. Alternatively, it would end in a horror movie fashion with the Terrans and Vasudans being wiped out, placed in their "rightful place". That might actually be more interesting.
-
If you want to get really technical, the Shivans aren't the defenders of subspace, but of everyone who hadn't found it yet. That was FS1's message. And the greater problem in that context is the fundementally destructive nature of technological sentiences.
Well as a off shoot of this if the Shivans are truly defenders of the meek and powerless developing civilizations then it does sorta of fit with the different attitudes of the Shivans in FS1 and FS2. The Ancients killed off dozens, maybe hundreds of lesser races as they built their empire. Therefore the Shivans exacted the ultimate price, total annihilation. The GTA and PVN on the other hand, had been fighting each other but had not gone on an extermination crusade across the expanse of space. Therefore the Shivan Response while brutal wasn't the end of their civilizations. by FS2 the GTVA still was contained and "minding their own business", but when Bosch and his loonies went on a tear and turned on the gate the GTVA needed to be "reminded" that they were in fact Shivan beam bait and not to stick their noses outside their corner of the galaxy. The Shivans certainly could have sent a Jugg to every system but they didn't they popped Capella and showed the GTVA how puny they are, and reminded them that imperialist expansion is not tolerated.
Depending on how you want to look at it the Shivans might be the "Hand of God" ready to protect the weak and smite the aggressors. The SB Seraphim is literally a Seraphim :p
-
Since the shivans are a symptom of a bigger problem. I would think that it would be extremely gay to find out that bigger problem is a natural force of nature such as subspace dying which is more like a disney greenpeace flick aobut the earth dying. The bigger problem can be anything, and i doubt it has to do with the subspace destabilizing until the whole universe goes kablooie. I mean geez the shivans use subspace and manipulate it a lot more than the gtva. The fs series is not about "make sure not to abuse your environment". WTF?
-
If not subspace, then what else? Another alien race? the Vasudans? We've already made friends with them. Considering that the FS1 ref bible leaves open the cause of the T-V War for sci-fi writers, I don't think that there was any plot-critical or sinister reason behind the start of the war, which probably means that the Vasudans aren't interested in killing us. Besides, they're portrayed as such peaceful wise historian types, even the HoL.
People forget that the game is named "FreeSpace". That's Subspace, before they changed the name. So why else would they name the game "Subspace"?
-
I don't think the shivans are any more at home in subspace than anyone else. Their shields fail too, and they can be tracked inside, which is somewhat odd for a race that theoretically spends all its time in there to give up its two biggest advantages when inside.
Perhaps the shivans were afraid of someone like bosh. They didn't want some random fool going into subspace and waking whatever dragon is sleeping inside.
Maybe they hate us for trespassing on subspace but fear us for our new found ability to collapse nodes. Its possible the shivans that just blew up a star are some kind of inter-galactic road repair crew, trying to fix the road to earth so they can finish the job of sterilizing the solar system.
The "Symptom of a greater problem" thing does not mean anything to us at this point.
It could be that the shivans are just the visible end of a much greater war or catastrophe... but right now that statements simply too cryptic.
I wish someone would write a book and spill the beans already.
-
Placeholder for future post, I have to find something I want to show you... carry on! (don't discuss this & derail the thread! I should have it in a day or two, and I will post again when I find it *starts searching ctrl+alt+del comics*)
Finally! Searched through the whole thing, must've skipped over it by accident... here ya go... The companies are even related, and the game sequel number is even the same! ;) :lol:
I wish someone would write a book and spill the beans already.
Nah, we can use a little persuasion on them:
http://cad-comic.com/comic.php?d=20040308
Even funnier is the result:
http://cad-comic.com/comic.php?d=20040416
-
Twisting the fundementally destructive logic back on itself, the Shivans are the defenders by accident; they represent the end extreme of this, destroying everything even remotely related to anyone who opens the door to subspace.
Perhaps due to simple biological imperatives (this species occupies the same niche as us, it's us or them; this isn't a theme I've seen picked up very often in sci-fi, but it's a very logical one) up until the Great War interspecies cooperation was something that simply did not exist in the galaxy, perhaps the universe. Now it does. And that, more than anything else, frightens the Shivans. It is quite literally beyond their ability to comprehend. They didn't have to back down at Capella, but they did. They were scared.
-
And so they captured some humans and vasudans to study, and we found that the shivans were 50 feet tall, but the captives escaped after they kissed. The Shivans were so shocked by this that they were unable to stop them from escaping in their transforming jet robots...
Oh wait, wrong universe.
-
LOL...Macross FTW ;7
-
Could you blame them? If i saw Alpha One make out with Miss Vasuda Prime 2332 - Kho'bani Shekmet Nabubu IV i would be to horrified to stop them from escaping either. :ick:
-
Hey i'm interested in what a human/vasudan hybrid looks like. Let them make out :p
-
And so they captured some humans and vasudans to study, and we found that the shivans were 50 feet tall, but the captives escaped after they kissed. The Shivans were so shocked by this that they were unable to stop them from escaping in their transforming jet robots...
Oh wait, wrong universe.
this just reminds me of something...the kiss in macros was just a distraction - they really escaped thanks to Max..
And stopping a armored robot amed with lazers, rockets and a gattling gun, flying at high speeds while piloted by an ace pilot...isn't easy.
-
First:
Props to Gestalt! To those who have not read his post, do so. It is really great.
Yes, FS1 was really disturbing.
For all the theories, you almost all miss out on two things:
- It was Bosch, who re-opened the door to Shivan Space.
- And Bosch started to actually communicate with them.
* While many were slaughtered, Bosch seems to get onto the cruiser unharmed.
Speculation (tiled in several speculations, so you can disagree with some of them):
1) Maybe the ancients opened that door also. (which explains why they were destroyed)
2) Maybe they managed to close it almost in time. (which explains why it was turned off)
3) But the Lucifer was already in, destroyed them, and slept for thousands of years with the remaining fleet - being isolated from the rest of the fleet. (which might explain the shields and other technological differences between Shivan FS1 and Shivan FS2)
4) The Lucifer is awakened by arrival of either GTA or PVN forces and seeks to destroy this new "ancients". (which might explain why they destroy those planets)
=> Lucifer and Shivan fleet are destroyed.
5) Bosch gets to know that the Lucifer is destroyed with some help of "ancients", who already knew the shivans.
6) Bosch thinks he somehow can save the human race by contacting the shivans. Or at least he gets the huge wish to communicate with them and spends his whole life to follow this goal.
* He might had the fear that they would come anyway and would destroy all of them. He might have been trying to prevent this by contacting the shivans.
* He might have told the other Neo-Terra ships that the "paradise" lies in the nebula. (Else I cannot understand why so many ships try to get to a "nebula" and be smashed by mjolnars.)
=> He reactivates the portal / door to shivan space.
7) The door is open, Bosch talks with the shivans. The see a new threat (the race is fighting against them) shivans mobilize a fleet. (why ever)
7.1 perhaps they saw a threat, perhaps not.
7.2 perhaps they were still seeking to destroy the "ancients" home world.
8) The shivans enter Gamma Draconis, enter Capella and blow up Capella.
8.1 perhaps they were still seeking to destroy the "ancients" home world
8.2 but still many leave to subspace before the super nova ...
It all makes sense until the FS2 shivans blow up that star ...
I still think that Boschs role in that whole affair is not to be underestimated (at least in opening the door). If he really reached his goal - who knows. That might also have been in complete vain ...
Can someone put out holes in my plot? Especially until 5).
lol, Fun-Theory: Perhaps Bosch was hating Capella, because some Capellan guy had stolen his girlfriend. So he connected to the Shivans to destroy it ;-)!
cu
Fabian
-
That reminds me of the most collectively disturbing aspect from these two games (and the expansion).
As the story goes on, more and more characters are either defecting or going nuts in the Shivans favor, but I don't remember if its ever really explained what any of them expected to gain from it.
The "Great destroyers" don't seem to offer anything but a swift death.
I don't recall the Alpha one of any campaign being told about any perks for betraying the GTA were other than "truth", "eternity" and "paradise"... which (in light of the whole "swift death" thing) does not seem like stuff I'd want. :wtf:
Half of me is tempted to ask myself if FS3 would have had the player switching sides on a more permanent basis, if only to understand what the hubbub was all about.
Not entirely related but whatever:
http://people.emich.edu/twiggin/cthulhutract4vt.gif
-
In MY theory, the Sathanes were wandering aimlessly when some scouting teams from the Ravana encountered a previously uncharted jump node (the Gamma Drax Knossos).
-
Found it!!
Placeholder for future post, I have to find something I want to show you... carry on! (don't discuss this & derail the thread! I should have it in a day or two, and I will post again when I find it *starts searching ctrl+alt+del comics*)
Finally! Searched through the whole thing, must've skipped over it by accident... here ya go... The companies are even related, and the game sequel number is even the same! ;) :lol:
I wish someone would write a book and spill the beans already.
Nah, we can use a little persuasion on them:
http://cad-comic.com/comic.php?d=20040308
Even funnier is the result:
http://cad-comic.com/comic.php?d=20040416
-
This is about Shivans right? Did someone say "hard facts?" :lol:
-
Hi, I'm a newly registered member of this forums. My theory on the Shivans is that they seek to exterminate all forms of life for some unknown reason (racists?) and the only reason why they didn't proceed to destroy the GTVA is that Bosch actually communicated to them. Maybe Bosch manage to negotiate with the Shivans (remember, Bosch said he wanted to save all Terrans and that his purpose for creating the NTF is not because he hates Vasudan but to save humanity).
Now, does anyone have any theory on what Shivans eat? Where do they get their resources? How do they reproduce? Do they even have shipyards? Are there any Shivan installations? How did they build their massive fleets?
-
:welcome:
Welcome to HLP. If you haven't done so already, go get Turey's FreeSpace Open Installer (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,42854.0.html) and praise all that is the SCP goodness.
In other news....
MY theory for Shivan ship making is that it is made with Lego, in subspace, and then when it is taken out of subspace it becomes big.
I don't think Shivans eat organic substances, or consume needed nutrients the way we do. I think they just get created somehow (through cloning?) with a set power supply of maybe six years, and then die when it runs out. What a way to live! :D They could also recharge themselves (however corny that may sound).
Their resources can't be too far off since we haven't found other technology, but it must have something to do with the red stuff in their ships, which would most likely power the Shivans themselves, too. I remember reading somewhere that the energy of their ships 'come from the Shivan itself.' This, to me, implies that the Shivans can 'integrate' into their ships better than humans or Vasudans, controlling their ship as if a part of their body structure.
If you go on the hypothesis that the Shivans were a hivemind, then you could say that the Shivan hivemind, after working normally for many thousands of millenia, got corrupted, and then decided to go on a rampage and destroy the universe.
-
Their resources most likely include nebular gas and dust, or perhaps asteroids, given their lack of planetary occupation. The only interest they ever take in planets is for destruction (vasuda prime).
As to food, (assuming they are organic) they may have some way of metabolizing compounds found in nebular gas or asteroids (ammonia and methane ice) for energy or whatever molecules they require. However, given their almost metallic exoskeleton, power blades and plasma cannon (hallfight cutscene), it's not a huge stretch of the mind to imagine that they are not organic.
They could be some sort of robot, responding only to a higher intelligence. (hive mind robots). Should they not be organic creatures, then all they would require is energy and spare parts (i suppose), and seeing as to the low value they place on shivan individual life, they might not even bother with the latter.
This would bring on two questions: were they created, or did they evolve?
Let's say they evolved. Consider: humans have already created mechanical hearts, and artificial bones and joints. Soon we will be able to grow our own skin. With a dialysis machine we can replace the function of our kidneys
Granted, none of that works very well right now, but that's beside the point. We can already self-enhance by enriching our blood to carry more oxygen (done with cyclists sometimes), and gene therapy allows us to fix some problems, at least in a limited fashion.
Who says that genetic, biomedical, and techonological advances couldn't make us superbeings like the shivans? Perhaps after millions or billions of years of evolution, we might have decided that such an evolution (maybe ONLY that evolution) of the human race would best ensure our survival. Any other subspace-capable races would have to be eliminated as a matter of protection.
This is all of course, off the cuff.
If they were created, that would easily explain away all the strange morphologies and behavior (xenocidal, inorganic and organic melds). However, why were there two different waves of shivans, with such different goals and behavior? The first shivans sought to actively destroy our fleets, and they also effected a planetary bombardment on vasuda, an action the second wave of shivans never repeated. We can maybe assume that the creators are long defunct and the shivans went separate ways, but then why such a similarity in technology?
Also, are they intelligent (on the level of humans)? It seems more likely that they are a hive mind, but might they be a collective intelligence? in FS1 this seems much less likely (the destruction of the lucifer), but in FS2 it might make sense. They throw cruiser after destroyer after corvette after fighter after bomber without regard to losses, or even any clear strategic objective. Their only objectives seem to be "Kill it. If it's bigger, that goes first." For example, 80 juggernauts are left to blow up the capella star, something they could do without a care in the world were the system occupied, yet battle is in full tilt between the allied remnant and the shivan fleets. A juggernaut at each battle location would have completely wiped out all resistance to the shivan assault, yet the only one that ever sortied was the one that destroyed the colossus. What about the Aquitaine? It was attacked twice with the intent of destruction in the nebula, yet in later phases of the war it appears to have been ignored.
personally, I offer no explanation for the shivans. Their evolution was as random as ours, or the vasudan's, or the ancient's. I'll wait for the third installment :p (oops, that's taboo around here)
-
Who says that the Sathanes were not deployed? Alpha 1 can't be at every single location at once you know.
-
If they were created, that would easily explain away all the strange morphologies and behavior (xenocidal, inorganic and organic melds). However, why were there two different waves of shivans, with such different goals and behavior? The first shivans sought to actively destroy our fleets, and they also effected a planetary bombardment on vasuda, an action the second wave of shivans never repeated. We can maybe assume that the creators are long defunct and the shivans went separate ways, but then why such a similarity in technology?
Eh, how about they were created for the highest bidder? Like the clones in Star Wars. They are a weapon created by a race who created weapons for sale to other races. FS1 and FS2 Shivans were purchased by different customers at different times for different functions/strategies.
Then, some maniac created a super virus that unbound their hive mind from their commanders, and gave them a hate for all life. This virus was capable of infecting all Shivans, as it used the master code built into them to control them if they ever went crazy or were used by someone to try and take over the designers' planetary system(s). It was transmitted through... subspace! :)
OK, that could probably use some refining, but, what do you think?
-
The second part sounds like something out of R-Type. :p
It's a viable theory... but not suited for Freespace, I don't think. Kinda ruins the atmosphere having such a... "simple" isn't quite the right word, but it's close... simple explanation.
-
Kinda ruins the atmosphere having such a... "simple" isn't quite the right word, but it's close... simple explanation.
FS2 kinda ruined that one already. :p
-
Oh, I don't think so. The Shivans are just as mysterious (maybe even more so) at the end of FS2 than they were at FS1.
-
Oops. I thought you meant FS was supposed to have a simple explanation. My bad, I get it now. And, just because it's simple, doesn't make it easy to undo. ;7
-
Eh, how about they were created for the highest bidder? Like the clones in Star Wars. They are a weapon created by a race who created weapons for sale to other races. FS1 and FS2 Shivans were purchased by different customers at different times for different functions/strategies.
Then, some maniac created a super virus that unbound their hive mind from their commanders, and gave them a hate for all life. This virus was capable of infecting all Shivans, as it used the master code built into them to control them if they ever went crazy or were used by someone to try and take over the designers' planetary system(s). It was transmitted through... subspace! :)
OK, that could probably use some refining, but, what do you think?
Uh... Hope you didn't put too much thought into that one because I really don't like it. :blah:
-
I put a lot of thought into it. This is the result of years of plotting... not. I made it up as I typed, taking all of about 1-2 minutes.
-
And, just because it's simple, doesn't make it easy to undo. ;7
True enough. But like I said "simple" just isn't the right word. "Commonplace" isn't either... I just can't think of a good word to use... :sigh:
-
Mediocre?
-
I don't agree that FS2 is less creepy than FS1 as someone pointed out earlier in the the thread, or that the mystery and awe of the Shivans disappears in FS2. In fact I think FS2 builds upon their power tremendously. The horror of the Shivans in FS2 is in their sheer incomprehensible numbers and the overwhelming power of their fleet, whereas in FS1 it was the invincibility of their technology.
GTVA technology catches up to the Shivans to the point where the Collosaus defeats the Sathanas, and we all think it was such a huge victory until we realize the Sathanas is not a single dreadnaught but merely a Shivan heavy capital ship class and they have an entire fleet of them. I remember first playing FS2 and being stunned to near silence by just how unstoppable the Shivans are, particularily in the game's apocalyptic final missions.
-
Oh, I don't think so. The Shivans are just as mysterious (maybe even more so) at the end of FS2 than they were at FS1.
I tend to agree. At the end of FS1 the Shivans were yet another xenophobic race that wants to kill anything they find. At the end of FS2 it's obvious that that is either not their goal or a minor goal compared to whatever they were doing with Capella.
-
I think with every fs game to come out you get shown another side of the shivans. This is highly comparative to seeing another side to a god.
-
Who knows, maybe in FS3 Bosch was meant to return as a super-shivan-powered god.
I apologise for placing the sacred characters together in an unholy order my bretheren.
-
Hmmmm, unholy or not, the only way to call effessthree, correctly is by the original correct unholy name of FS3. This is like people who say freakin'-a, oh fudge, when the real word is F.U.C.K.
That's right Friendliness, Unity, Caring, and Kindness. I don't see **** is so bad as ****-****-3
-
Who knows, maybe in FS3 Bosch was meant to return as a super-shivan-powered god.
I apologise for placing the sacred characters together in an unholy order my bretheren.
That is highly UNLIKELY (and my bull**** meter also agrees)
-
It's one of the two main possibilities. He either died (VERY VERY LIKELY) or became the super-Shivan-powered god (UNLIKELY).
Also, my theory rocks.
-
And, also:
:necro:
-
My personal Shivan theory, succinctly, was that the Capella supernova was a mistake and that the jumpgate, as planned, would not have resulted in the destruction of the star, at least not until the juggernauts went through it.
Also, Bosch is in the bottom of a Shivan transport somewhere, being interrogated at random intervals.
-
Well, bosch i feel bad for bosch. The shivans that killed his crew and his crew in turn killed some of them were part of 2 different groups of shivans in the transport that bosch took when he left the iceni.
There was your normal "kill'em all" shivans, and there was the more curious "i wonder what the sex with aliens is like" shivans in the lower bowels of the transport where as Agent_Koopa said bosch resides.
These are the freaky shivans who are getting their funk down with admiral bosch.
(http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6474/carlwh7.jpg)
(photo appreciation goes to hlp's carl the shivan for going down the catwalk in the right, and modeling in a pink thong with hairy legs in the left)
Now the next thing in mind is that we do not know is admiral bosch'es current condition. I mean him staying with the shivans that are getting their funk down with him combined with the fact that shivans are also really good at killing stuff without even thinking about it :shaking:
-
There was your normal "kill'em all" shivans, and there was the more curious "i wonder what the sex with aliens is like" Shivans in the lower bowels of the transport where as Agent_Koopa said bosch resides.
Now the next thing in mind is that we do not know is Admiral Bosch's current condition. I mean him staying with the Shivans that are getting their funk down with him combined with the fact that Shivans are also really good at killing stuff without even thinking about it :shaking:
For Bosch's sake, let's just hope they don't consider their plasma energy-claw things a part of their reproductive system.
-
It's four in the morning, I have to "wake up" for work in about an hour, so I'll make this concise.
I think if you're going to get anywhere with Shivan theories (aside from going straight to the source), your best bet is to think small.
It's more or less established that Shivans are a hive-mind culture, and yet I haven't seen anyone mention ants or bees or similar hive-based insects yet. Exoskeletal, ridiculous size/strength ratio, heck, even compound vision (seven "eyes"?)...
Let's have a look at some context (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_imported_fire_ant). (I apologize for using Wikipedia - as I said, it's VERY late.)
I don't think it's correct to assume Shivans are a tool, simply because of their technological enhancements. Rather, consider them an introduced species (http://www.actionbioscience.org/biodiversity/simberloff.html). "Symptom of a larger problem," reads the quote? Context again: red fire ants are only one introduced species. What if the larger problem isn't any kind of galactic war or sleeper race, but pest control?
More interesting, could the Shivans be viewing US as the introduced species? (Terrans, Vasudans both?). Disturbances in the environment, in this case, Subspace. Not to label them environmental protectors, but perhaps a weird hybrid of territorial mindset and exterminator philosophy.
Yes, that one goes back to what was said earlier about stepping on their subspace turf, but perhaps for different reasons.
FS1 - Lucifer et al, perhaps a relocating "queen" Shivan looking to nest, and finding itself in hostile territory?
FS2 - The ants come boiling up out of the nebula to chew your feet off. Blowing up Capella... making more territory? More nebula and star material - maybe nebulas are as close to a 'natural' environment as a Shivan can get.
I'm rambling, so I'll stop now, but I'm curious to see if anyone else has thought in this sort of direction before, and where it ended up.
-
:necro:
I guess we'll just never know... And honestly, I think it's better that way.
-
OMG, SECRET NAZI THREAD!
*Will have to read it later*
-
what about... a super massive race..
increasing it's numbers into millions in just a second....from thousands and thousands of years of rought evolution...
just another great devourer, just like us, uncontrolled consumism adict race..
Not stopping at anything to get at their goal, survival...searching adecuate massive stars, from wich getting enought energy to keep their own existency in a fainting light of hope.
veryyy deepp jjajajaj :P
though this do not explains the impulse to bombard a planet just to massacre an entire race of opposers..
well.. not all has to have an explanation right?
rot
-
For Bosch's sake, let's just hope they don't consider their plasma energy-claw things a part of their reproductive system.
I applaud you for your open mind. I hope the same as you in your further thinking. Oh man, that'd be horrible. The shivan would be in the middle of stuff...shawing! (shivan thinking...)oh god i killed it...this was the only time i ever LOVED!!!
Shivans probably are viewing us as the introduced species. The ancients have been all over a good chunk of gtva space in the past which isn't very big currently for the gtva. And since the shivans cleaned out former ancient space...
It's also obvious that the shivans were not first encountered at ross 128. Definitely something gti was up to back then. I bet they found proof of the shivans and were studying them for like a decade or so until finally discovered by the shivans (gti did have stealth tech). It's entirely one thing for a small shivan wing following an apollo BOMBER variant from an obvious battle with the lucifer...and also that the lucifer was following. There must was one hell of a battle where gti went after the lucifer with a ton of bombers only to find out it was shielded and that one apollo bomber got away just barely.
How do i know the lucifer was being attacked by gti? The fact that the lucifer wasn't following a fighter, but that it was following a bomber that barely got away from the engagement. The fact that the pilot had a mesmorizing freakish detail of shivan ships in his head. The gta in general didn't know about the shivans, and gti is the intelligence agency of the gta, so it would be dead obvious that gti would be gathering intelligence and got wiped out by the shivans before getting a chance to deliver the information.
Feel free to tear this apart. It's got some holes. It'd make one hell of a campaign for fs though. The fact is you know the gta knew of the shivans before ross 128. The fact that the lucifer was following a bomber says a huge thing that there was an engagement with the lucifer with prior knowledge of the lucifer.....or the lucifer just showed up out of nowhere and completely decimated a tv battle. Like i said there's some holes.
EDIT: The shivan plasma energy claw could be considered the shivan form of offering extra stimulation. The reach around or bowling ball grip. The shivans would have surely killed bosch :no:
-
what do you mean?? where did you saw a bomber being chased by a lucifer?? in the intro movie of fs1??
-
He's right, the Apollo is a fighter, not a bomber.
Thanks, by the way:
I applaud you for your open mind.
-
He's right, the Apollo is a fighter, not a bomber.
It was a bomber variant. It had a different bomb configuration and the FSRefBible specifically calls it "bomber"
-
in the intro movie of fs1??
Bingo
-
I don't think the bomber engaged the Lucifer, there's nothing to support that.
-
It didn't.
-
/me watches the intro again
Nah, the guy looks & sounds really scared, and pilots aren't known for their acting skills :D
-
There's nothing that doesn't really support that the apollo didn't attack the lucifer either. The apollo was nonetheless being followed. And for it being in such a damaged state. It either was on a mission to pull an assault on the lucifer with gtvi forces for knowing what was up and coming and trying to stop it. Or the lucifer happened to stop by a TV engagement and wiped out everything but that apollo.
The fact that the shivans were not first encountered at ross 128 suggests gtvi with prior knowledge. I mean how come everyone in the fs universe gets to know about ross 128 where everything also got destroyed as opposed to prior to ross 128 where everything also got destroyed? It was also a freaking apollo bomber running away too, there was some big type of ship that needed detonating if a bomber gets sortied, then there was a wing of them, but that in itself is not good enough in trying to find out if gtvi forces were trying to destroy the lucifer before they got surprised (woops, shielded...SPF!!!).
No **** the pilot was scared anyhow :lol:
-
There is no evidence to support the pilot attacked the Lucifer, in fact there is canon evidence against it. I seriously doubt the Apollo attacked the Lucifer, since he was definitely not acting. What he said, I believe, was absolutely true and that he knew nothing of the true identity of the Shivans. I believe he was just attacking Vasudans when he himself was attacked by the Shivans, who tracked his fighter to find the main GTA base.
I do agree, though, that the GTI knew more about the Shivans than they were letting on. Even before the Shivans are revealed it is mentioned that there was a deflector shield array undergoing research (see MX-50 tech description).
-
Even with no shields, you wouldn't expect success from using an Apollo-bomber against a ship the size of the Lucifer. Anyone remember how long it takes to take down a Demon-class destroyer? Hmm? With an Orion helping you, no less?? And, if they were trying to kill the Lucifer, there wouldn't be only one survivor. As they would already be aware of the shielded fighters, their superior weapons and manuevering, etc. Unless you really think the GTI just decided that, upon finding an unknown species, they were going to attack with no intelligence regarding said species. :p
-
I'm saying they probably didn't know about the shielding on the lucifer. Wings of apollo bombers. We don't know how much havoc they could wreak. I know if i had an apollo bomber that i'd be going to town. And this is gti we're talking about. As one of the mission briefs of the expansion to fs1 said, they do have different weaponry that can have different affects. Gti did experiment with technologies and different ideas. They could have been the early testers of the avenger cannon (probably were). Finding out if shivan fighters are shielded is easy. Finding out if other capships of the shivans are shielded is also easy...they aren't. Finding the lucifer and going oh **** with an example of it's beams, launching a preemptive strike to get rid of the sucker asap, and being pleasantly surprised further could have happened (lucifer probably wasn't the first encountered shivan vessel by gti...i at least think gti weren't letting on to more of the knowledge they had of the shivans).
Of course this is following the premise that the apollo bomber was a gti pilot and had escaped an attack on the lucifer barely.
-
The Avenger didn't originally work on shields FYI.
-
Gti still had other weaponry the rest of the gta didn't have.
-
Hey, first post here, long time lurker. This thread got me deeply interested. The storyline of FreeSpace and the enigmatic Shivans is one of the things I think that has kept my interest in this game ever since I played FS1.
Anyways, I think it's highly unlikely the pilot in the opening cutscene was attacking a Shivan warship. The pilot makes the flat statement that "we were in a skirmish with a Vasudan patrol, and they just came out of nowhere." Considering this pilot is scared ****less I find it hard to believe this is all acting.
Also, I don't agree with the theory that bombers would have only been sortied if there was legit need for heavy bombers (in this case, attacking the Lucifer). The Apollo bomber variant would not have been a heavy bomber by any stretch of the mind, and most certainly after 14 years of war would not be the heaviest attack craft in the GTA arsenal. More likely it was a support wing deployed with standard fighter wings to provide heavier firepower should it be needed if the patrol encountered something like an Aten cruiser.
I do however agree that the GTI knew about the Shivans, or at least had some idea, prior to FS1. I find the best evidence of this is during one of the command briefings where Admiral Wolf mentions "There is to be no more talk of phantom ships." It was made pretty obvious that there were no survivors from Ross 128 ("The investigation of the Ross 128 attack has turned up nothing"), or, at the very least, nothing that wasn't classified by the GTI. So where did this talk of phantom ships originate I wonder?
Anyways, that's my $0.02 on the current angle of this discussion.
-
:welcomered:
Good statements, all four of them :yes:
Additionally, bombers (even Medusas) are sortied quite often to help with dogfights during the Great War. Yes, that's mostly in red alert missions, but what the hell.
The talk of phantom ships... Well, they knew Ross 128 was attacked, didn't they? They wouldn't be so sure if nobody explicitly told them, so I do think there were survivors. Before they were imprisoned (or so) by the GTI, they told their story to 'normal' GTA pilots, who started the talk. Anyway, I haven't played ST, so I'm only guessing at this point.
Welcome again and enjoy your stay!
-
Dayum FreeSpaceFreak beat me to it...
Attention artillery, prepare beams.
Target kalnaren, fire when ready.
:welcomeorange:
You are hereby officially welcomed to Hard-Light.net.
Exits are to your right and to your left. Be advised, one is watched over by a female Vasudan, and the other by a Terran mechanic, also female.
Under your seat is a giant water gun, bear in mind that it uses superheated plasma accelerated to high sublight speeds, so don't hurt yourself with it.
Above you are the ventilation shafts. Feel free to explore them, there are many places to visit in them. If you meet a Shivan, and you will, don't worry. He's called Carl and he won't eat you if you give him your lunch. If not, well... we'll miss you here.
In case of a real emergency, there are plasma guns and the Hammer of Ban in lockers towards the front. However, only Admins, :v:, Chuck Norris and a hyperintelligent shade of blue can open the aforementioned lockers.
Have a good day!
-
Yippee, someone who still gives welcome speeches! I didn't dare to at first, but now I'll post a link to jr2's welcome speeches (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,39765.0.html)TM ;)
-
The administration said that it wasn't allowed...
-
*Finished reading the thread*
So far, some ideas that I liked are:
1) The Lucy group in FS1 was isolated from the rest of the Shivans during or after the Ancient conflict, only to be awakened during the T-V war, explaining the lack of beam weapons as well as the differences in their policies towards the GTVA.
2) The idea that the Shivans are like the "monsters at the edge of the map." The fact that they seem to defy logic and reason is what makes them such great enemies. While we can outsmart them tactically, we can`t figure them out.
With that in mind I don`t like the theories where the shivans are tools or servants to some even more sophisticated race. It totally kills the mysterious aspect of them, as well as the awesome factor.
-
Well, they are known to be merely a symptom of a bigger problem... Open to interpretation.
@Snail: Shut up :p
-
Yeah, but I`d imagine there are ways for them to be part of a bigger problem without being merely pawns to it.
While "I don`t mind being a pawn if the game makes sense," I do mind the shivans being so.
-
:welcomered:
Good statements, all four of them :yes:
Additionally, bombers (even Medusas) are sortied quite often to help with dogfights during the Great War. Yes, that's mostly in red alert missions, but what the hell.
The talk of phantom ships... Well, they knew Ross 128 was attacked, didn't they? They wouldn't be so sure if nobody explicitly told them, so I do think there were survivors. Before they were imprisoned (or so) by the GTI, they told their story to 'normal' GTA pilots, who started the talk. Anyway, I haven't played ST, so I'm only guessing at this point.
Welcome again and enjoy your stay!
Thanks for the welcome.
That's probably more likely to have been the origin of the phantom ships. That, and possibly, leaks from within the GTI itself (a husband to a wife over dinner, a wife to her girlfriends at a Tupperware party, that wife to her husband, that husband to his buddies in the fleet... of course by which time the "phantoms" likely went from being a "possible unidentified ship" to "flying zombies with laser beam eyes"..... or monsters that lurk in subspace and eat unwary patrols for lunch.).
2) The idea that the Shivans are like the "monsters at the edge of the map." The fact that they seem to defy logic and reason is what makes them such great enemies. While we can outsmart them tactically, we can`t figure them out.
I have to say out of all the replies in here, I also find this idea the most appealing (Gestalt's post on page 2 kindof idea). Though I do like to think there is some greater motivation for them.
-
Of course there`s some greater motivation for them. The developers stated that much.
I guess I`m just a sucker for mysterious enemies, as I like the Sync and Transcend campaigns for that same reason.
-
My theory is that the shivans don't like us.
-
My theory is that the shivans don't like us.
:yes:
-
My theory is that the shivans don't like us.
:no:
This very simple and despicable theory does not explain any of the following questions:
Why the Shivans did not send in reinforcements until 30 years after the Lucifer's death.
Why the Shivans OMGWTFBBQSALAD'd up Capella.
Why the Shivans in FS1 did not have beams while the ones in FS2 did (among other differences).
What the Shivan Comm Nodes were.
How the Shivans got such a big fleet.
Why the Shivans only attacked subspace nodes, except for Earth, Deneb and Vasuda.
How the Shivans are the "Great Preservers".
The Origins of the Shivans
However, MY THEORY (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Snail%27s_Theory) answers all these questions, AND MORE, including, but not limited to:
Why some nodes which appeared in FS1 didn't appear in FS2.
Why there were more than 1 node to Sol but all were destroyed by the Lucifer.
Why the Shivans have flak!
Explains Petrarch's "Shivans are exiles" comment.
Read it and be enlightened.
-
Not a bad theory, it does explain everything... it assumes an awful lot though. But then again, I guess any complete Shivan theory does :p
-
I wonder what the second Knosses Portal in the Nebula led too... Remember that?
-
Yippee, someone who still gives welcome speeches! I didn't dare to at first, but now I'll post a link to jr2's welcome speeches (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,39765.0.html)TM ;)
Added that welcome speech. ;)
-
Seriously... that theory is good.. shivans dont like us...or the basudan either!!
maybe we should just ask the ancients what shall we do to be friends with shivans..
ohh ****... that's right they didnt like them either..
well guess shivans just dont like anithing else but shivans :P
-
Nah, I`ve decided that this theory is the best!!1!
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,450.msg8214.html#msg8214
-
Nah, I`ve decided that this theory is the best!!1!
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,450.msg8214.html#msg8214
ahahaha
-
My theory is that the shivans don't like us.
:no:
This very simple and despicable theory does not explain any of the following questions:
<SNIP>
Read it and be enlightened.
Yeah, but it doesn't explain how the Shivans are "a symptom of a greater problem". One of the few secret snippets Volition left out.
I also don't buy the Lucifer bit. You say
", meaning that the loss of contact with the Hivemind put a halt to Shivan innovation
and then later say
The Lucifer fleet was a very small fleet with only a handful of destroyers at their disposal. For this reason, they took extra measures to protect their flagship, the SD Lucifer. These measures included implementing a powerful shielding system onto the superdestroyer, as well as unique Flux Cannon weapons. The reason the entire fleet was void of the beam cannons seen on the later Shivan ships is because they had never been developed. Because all of the Shivans were separated for tens of thousands of years, each developed in their own unique direction..
So, loss with the hivemind halts innovation. Yet, everyone still innovated on their own seperately? I don't get it. If there's a hivemind, logically everything is equal. Roughly. And if they're seperated, they stay equal, at least in your theory. So why have they evolved over time? Or you say that sometimes, the Shivans stole and adapted technology instead. But, the Shivans never showed any sign of caring to capture anything. They just blow everything they see to bits. So who did they steal this tech from? And where did they refit their ships? We've never seen a Shivan base, just some satellite broadcasting the latest videos of some Shivan getting mad after his game of Unreal wouldn't start, and another Shivan singing the Rick Roll song.
And I don't buy the Great War theory either. An advanced species doesn't act on instinct alone, or else they wouldn't be advanced in the first place. They have a mandate, as the Great Preservers. Instinct is for self-preservation, not for the preservation of others. Instinct is fight or flight, not . . .go out and hunt down some weakass humans. Or maybe the humans got too close to the Shivan nest. And all the Shivan mommies came out to lay down some smack to preserve their young! :D
And the GTI, wasn't really a major factor in the Great War story. They were only introduced as a rogue element in Silent Threat as far as I can remember. And I don't get why everyone goes so crazy about the GTI or the SOC. I mean, whatever. Just some more rebels to kill. They're not the centrepoint or driving force of the story.
-
/me watches the intro again
Nah, the guy looks & sounds really scared, and pilots aren't known for their acting skills :D
I never said he was acting. I just said he had a freakish detail of shivan ships.
The pilot makes the flat statement that "we were in a skirmish with a Vasudan patrol, and they just came out of nowhere." Considering this pilot is scared ****less I find it hard to believe this is all acting.
Good point with the vasudan skirmish pointing out, i did say earlier that this fun theory had holes. I was just still talking about it because canon or not it fits the thread and is a great what if theory. Also i forgot about the vasudan skirmish part.
On the other side of all of this. When did i say the pilot was acting scared? All i said was that he had a freakish detail of shivans ships. This does not mean: S-99 = saying he was acting.
And yeah gti aren't really a big factor in the great war at all. Near the end of the great war they were. They definitely were the most knowledgable of shivans though. Was bosch a pilot for gti back then? I don't remember if he was or not. The only thing that's up with gti was the whole situation that happened in silent threat which really carries on in big ways in fs2 well after gti got all ****ed up. Stuff like bosch getting old gti defunct records on the shivans and the etak device derived from that old gti research.
-
On the other side of all of this. When did i say the pilot was acting scared? All i said was that he had a freakish detail of shivans ships. This does not mean: S-99 = saying he was acting.
Eh, "freakish detail?" like . . ."death black ships, their weapons were too much for us". That's not really a lot of detail. He's reliving the moment as he's recounting the battle but that just means he saw what he was fighting, not that he could draw a schematic when he got back to base. Basically all he says is "they look scary and they kicked our ass".
The biggest problem I have with that theory (aside from the fact it completely contradicts everything the pilot says and does), is that, it implies the GTA is in control. Freespace 1 versus the Shivans is basically one long desperate struggle to survive. The Shivans come out of nowhere, kick the crap out of everyone, nuke the Galatea, lay waste to the Vasudans, and then barely, just barely, the fragile alliance manages to bring them down on the very doorstep of Earth. If the GTA or GTI or whoever the heck is instigating the whole thing, then it loses all the mystery.
And personally, the whole view that the GTI or the SOC is the freespace equivalent of the Illuminati always bugs the heck out of me. And why people have fallen in love with the GTI when Silent Threat is just one crappy mission after another is beyond me. Oh look, there are 3-4 Atens, go kill them! Don't know why I'm killing them, just apparently I don't like Vasudans at the moment. Or Oh look, the Hades. It's just going to sit there while I hide in the trench shooting for 20 minutes, while battling off an endless supply of Lokis. Is it over yet? Please say yes.
-
There was always something nagging me about the Ancients. I seem to recall them saying, "when we encountered them". As I recall, weren't the Ancients the ones who were busy conquering the world. Doesn't that mean that "when [the Ancients] encountered them", weren't the Ancients on the offensive?
-
Yes, they were on the offensive. "We attacked them, as we had done with everyone else..."
-
Problem with the ancients is that we really have no idea what the extent of their empire was. Assuming that they did build the portals, their empire clearly expanded far beyond the GTVA; remember the second portal in the binary system after the nebula? Who knows where that one went. Perhaps they encounted the Shivans through there.
I also really dislike the theories that make the Shivans out to be a bunch of separate fleets trying to reach eachother. They seem to act to singularly for that, especially in FS1. IF they have a limited small fleet and they're trying to protect their destroyer (Lucifer), why would they ever go on the offensive against an enemy that doesn't know they exist? I have trouble believing the Shivans are retarded animals driven purely by instinct.
-
Actually, given the Ancient monologue, it seemed to me that the Ancients made a major boo boo in attacking the Shivans. Its possible that the Ancients touched a nerve with the Shivans, and they retaliated. And then the Shivans became xenophobic, and begen annihilating every race they encountered.
For all you know, the Ancients razed the Shivan homeworld as an example; which would explain why the Shivans targeted the Vasudan homeworld exclusively.
-
The point of my theory was to pick and choose what you like and ignore the other parts.
-
The point of my theory was to pick and choose what you like and ignore the other parts.
Well, then it's not a cohesive theory.
It's a collection of random thoughts with contradictory groundings. Which potentially raises more questions than it answers. You're saying "oh, could be this, or maybe this is what's going on. Or, maybe this is the answer." instead of "this is what I think".
When you come up with one concrete theory, let me know. Until then I'll still wait to be enlightened.
-
Well, then it's not a cohesive theory.
It's a collection of random thoughts with contradictory groundings. Which potentially raises more questions than it answers. You're saying "oh, could be this, or maybe this is what's going on. Or, maybe this is the answer." instead of "this is what I think".
When you come up with one concrete theory, let me know. Until then I'll still wait to be enlightened.
Point taken.